Vegan Debate

[En]

Do we have any vegans at NamePros?

Anyone want to debate why they believe they have the right to enslave, manipulate, force, bully into submission, and send innocent gentle animals to a slaughterhouse full of uneducated employees that have a career in mass murder?

 

[james haw]

Anyone want to debate why they believe they have the right to enslave, manipulate, force, bully into submission, and send innocent gentle animals to a slaughterhouse full of uneducated employees that have a career in mass murder?

Strong words. Meat eaters are all bad then. And, vegans do nothing wrong, right? Or, do we all do our bit to help, and also without being able to avoid it, all do harm in some way too?

Being a vegan or vegetarian is entirely a life choice, a personal choice, just like whether you want to go skiing or on a beach holiday! In either case, harm is done, to various things!

So, as a vegan who saves the planet by a single act of not eating meat, and obviously does no harm in any other way given your sanctimonious attitude in your first post, do you go on holiday somewhere?

The aeroplane flight causes harm to the planet, the drive to the airport in your car does also. etc etc.
And I'm not just talking about "carbon emissions", I'm talking about so much more than face value.

1. The aeroplane and car parts, made of plastic, metal, wood etc, where require materials which are sourced in ways which harm the environment in some way, and all formed and made in a factory with processes which causes harm
   
2. The trucks that deliver those parts give out emissions and the factory that made the trucks do too.
3. The obtaining of fuel to drive these vehicles is obtained in a way that kills things and is not good for the planet on a mass scale.
4. All the way down to your luggage and how it was made, and how the old one you threw away sits in a land fill causing various issues
   
5. And so on and so on...

So, do you not go on that holiday to save the planet? Do you own a car? Order goods online which has a datacentre for the website, packaging, deliveries in a truck....?

Almost everything we do now causes harm to something, someone, or was brought to us in some way that caused stress, grief, harm, or some injustice to someone else!!

So it's fine to debate whether we should or should not eat meat based on if animals are humanely slaughtered, but to use this as some kind of "meat eaters are therefore bad" is not on.

I don't need to be a vegan to care about animals! I do care that animals may not have such a quick death, but there is something you and every single person reading this owns or uses as a service which was created via some kind of cruelty or causes some kind of harm to the environment. Whether slave labour, or incredibly harsh working conditions, etc.
Heck, just reading this post uses electricity, a computer made of harmful plastics, the internet is served via systems and hardware full of plastics and bad things on a huge scale, and uses electricity etc.

The fact is, in this world today this is everywhere, and we can all do our bit to try to stop it, and yes one of the many potential choices includes not eating meat for the sake of animals, But please don't think nor insinuate that meat eaters are "bad" just because they choose to eat meat, we all do our bit in some way, and we all do something which causes harm.

For example, how many of you have domain names hosted as a website somewhere? Do you go out of your way to find a green datacentre hosting provider? Which helps the planet and all the animals on it?
I do. Do you? Or is one of your choices to not eat meat? We all do our bit, in different ways.


So instead of lashing out as if you are all good and meat eaters are bad, perhaps take a look at the bigger picture!
The amount of land needed to cater for an influx in a diets alternative to eating meat would be mammoth, and in itself kill billions of animals! Forests and wildlife areas would be levelled to cater for crop growing. All insects, ants, spiders, bees, etc etc, would also be killed, and this has an affect on the survivability of the surrounding plants, trees, and food for other animals like birds etc.

Please, stop seeing the world in black and white! I'm sincerely pleased if you choose to not eat meat for the sake of animals, but until you live in a hut in the middle of no-where and only use things you hand make and use nothing commercial at all, then you have no right to even contest my eating meat!

 

[james haw]

Let's not use the bible/God as some means of an argument for either side. I mean, who brings religion into a vegan debate, that's like throwing tigers into a bear fight

God flooded the world, killing all animals, billions to the power of billions etc.
Jesus served fish to 5K people
etc

 

[En]

Being raised on a farm we always treated our animals good, free range and cracked corn. I don't like when I see cruelty to animals, but believe God has given us the answer, sorry about preaching, but my belief system is based on the Bible, I try and make all my decisions based on it. It took me a long time to come to the conclusion that there was a time to kill, serving in the military. I am thankful I never had too. But here is what God says to Noah after the flood

Genesis 9New International Version (NIV)
God’s Covenant With Noah

9 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands.3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you.C)'> Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.D)'>

http://www.discoveryuk.com/shows/ru...ow-to-survive/poisonous-animals-you-cant-eat/

What about dogs and cats?

Putting animals through hell on Earth to feed your own selfishness? Doesn't sound like something that's getting people into heaven, more likely they will experience the life of all of those animals...

"You are what you eat."

If you're happy experiencing the same fate as what you eat, in the next universe adventure, then fine. Continue eating...

Remember, God also made it that humans can survive without eating meat.

Mainly what I hear from meat eaters is that they "love" eating meat, the taste, "oh just had my steak" bragging, blah. Just basically all selfishness, narcissistic behaviour.

And... "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually"
And listening to so called "debates" with vegans, I completely understand Him.???

Take a good look at what is happening to the planet.

Ironically 100% of vegans care about whether the seas are being overfished to extinction, yet not for themselves, all meat eaters care about is their next selfish meal and the money that their 'objects' will fetch them.

Wake up!

 

[Yuri Kt]

Take a good look at what is happening to the planet.

Planet is OK, it's 4 milliard years old and still looking good. It survived lot of cataclisms, asteroids, volcanos, meat eating dinosauros etc. If you wanna feel closier to Mother-Nature, stop debating with meat eaters, just ask your dentist treat you without analgesics.

 

[En]

Planet is OK, it's 4 milliard years old and still looking good. It survived lot of cataclisms, asteroids, volcanos, meat eating dinosauros etc. If you wanna feel closier to Mother-Nature, stop debating with meat eaters, just ask your dentist treat you without analgesics.

I'm not talking about the aesthetics of the planet, the outer appearance, the Earth selfie, I'm talking about its soul.

I don't remember hearing about abused, tortured, and bullied dinosaurs? Maybe it's just human nature?

 

[Yuri Kt]

I don't remember hearing about abused, tortured, and bullied dinosaurs?

I guess why. There was one dinosaur that decided to be a vegan. While he ate the grass and leaves his dinomates just had thoughts he is a freak, but were OK with him. Then he began to preach among them the faith of vegan lifestyle, called them killers and environmental enemies. So them just ate the idiot, and since then you "don't remember hearing about abused, tortured, and bullied dinosaurs".

 

[En]

I guess why. There was one dinosaur that decided to be a vegan. While he ate the grass and leaves his dinomates just had thoughts he is a freak, but were OK with him. Then he began to preach among them the faith of vegan lifestyle, called them killers and environmental enemies. So them just ate the idiot, and since then you "don't remember hearing about abused, tortured, and bullied dinosaurs".

Death is a part of life. Everyone dies some day. Not everyone is bullied, abused, tortured... and only humans are doing it.

 

[En]

The process of being a vegan isn't like being gay or something, where you are just born gay (and then the other humans hate on them, bully them, ostracize them...)

Most vegans start out as meat eaters, then after watching how animals are being treated, be it for food, clothing, entertainment, zoos, etc. become vegan.

It's not that some people like meat, some like grass and leaves.

If you see something that you can't understand, like human slavery, human zoos, human abuse, bullying, animal abuse, animal bullying, then you do something about it. That's the nature of some brave human beings, that's how the world changed from the other disgusting actions of humanities history.

 

[Yuri Kt]

Death is a part of life. Everyone dies some day. Not everyone is bullied, abused, tortured... and only humans are doing it.

Yeah. This is our selfish way to the better life. We exploit animals to develop better drugs, cosmetics, to explore new seas, islands and now we expand to cosmos and universe. It's OK if you stop using drugs, cosmetics and steaks. Juyst steaks - is not enough. As I said, begin with the dentist, save mice and rats.

 

[JB Lions]

The process of being a vegan isn't like being gay or something, where you are just born gay (and then the other humans hate on them, bully them, ostracize them...)

Most vegans start out as meat eaters, then after watching how animals are being treated, be it for food, clothing, entertainment, zoos, etc. become vegan.

It's not that some people like meat, some like grass and leaves.

If you see something that you can't understand, like human slavery, human zoos, human abuse, bullying, animal abuse, animal bullying, then you do something about it. That's the nature of some brave human beings, that's how the world changed from the other disgusting actions of humanities history.

I'm having this later, a nice 12.9 ounce ribeye:

Yes, most vegans ate meat before and deep down, you know you miss it. They're here for us to eat, here for other animals to eat. It's just nature. You think they are here just to wander around a field all day eating? Do you think all the other animals in the world that naturally eat other animals are wrong? Or do you agree those animals were meant to eat other animals?

 

[james haw]

Mainly what I hear from meat eaters is that they "love" eating meat, the taste, "oh just had my steak" bragging, blah. Just basically all selfishness, narcissistic behaviour.

This is the most closed-minded and selfish thing I've read in a long time.

I have absolutely no idea how anyone could possibly be self-righteous about proclaiming meat eaters are bad when every single person this planet does something for their own gain which kills or causes serious injustices to someone.


https://www.google.co.uk/#q=cruel+conditions+for+workers+picking+vegetables
At least look at the result titles ^^

People are drowning and dying from poor conditions to get you your vegetables, slaves!
But, yet, you still eat them. Why?

Is the issue of cattle being treat inhumanely more important than humans being essentially slaves, treat so badly, and in many cases due to the conditions, they die?
Of course not. Suffering happens for me to eat meat, but also your clothes, obtaining vegetables, it's no different.

Of course I hate it all. I try to buy and do whatever I can to avoid it all. But the fact is, we cannot escape it, so we can only do bits here and there. You don't eat meat, I do other things.

"Meat eater" does not = "bad person who doesn't care".
Just like "person who only eats vegetables" doesn't = "doesn't care about migrant workers"!!

 

[JB Lions]

This is the most closed-minded and selfish thing I've read in a long time.

I have absolutely no idea how anyone could possibly be self-righteous about proclaiming meat eaters are bad when every single person this planet does something for their own gain which kills or causes serious injustices to someone.


https://www.google.co.uk/#q=cruel+conditions+for+workers+picking+vegetables
At least look at the result titles ^^

People are drowning and dying from poor conditions to get you your vegetables, slaves!
But, yet, you still eat them. Why?

Is the issue of cattle being treat inhumanely more important than humans being essentially slaves, treat so badly, and in many cases due to the conditions, they die?
Of course not. Suffering happens for me to eat meat, but also your clothes, obtaining vegetables, it's no different.

Of course I hate it all. I try to buy and do whatever I can to avoid it all. But the fact is, we cannot escape it, so we can only do bits here and there. You don't eat meat, I do other things.

"Meat eater" does not = "bad person who doesn't care".
Just like "person who only eats vegetables" doesn't = "doesn't care about migrant workers"!!

That's a valid point, also human slavery, trafficking.

"Many enslaved farmworkers in Florida pick the tomatoes that end up on sliced onto sandwiches, mixed into salads and stacked on supermarket shelves across the country. Over the last decade, the Coalition of Immokalee Workers, an award-winning farmworker advocacy organization, has identified more than 1,200 victims of human trafficking picking produce in Florida's fields."

"These slaves often work for 10-12 hours a day, seven days a week. They are kept in cramped and dirty trailers, constantly monitored, and have wages garnished to pay a debt invented by the trafficker to keep victims enslaved. Many victims face threats to themselves or their families, regular beatings, sexual harassment and rape. They can't leave, can't seek help. They are in every way trapped."

http://thecnnfreedomproject.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/21/your-tomato-possible-ties-to-slavery/

I'm going to do my part for my fellow man, since I don't support slavery. I want vegans and vegetarians to do their part and come back home. Help your fellow man, stop denying your nature.

 

[james haw]

after watching how animals are being treated, become vegan.

If you see something that you can't understand, like human slavery, bullying, then you do something about it.

Fair points! Sincerely.

So what do you think about me stating:

• "I don't eat vegetables to try to stop the issue with migrant workers being treat badly, some dying due to poor conditions, treat like slaves"

And what if I called you "selfish and terrible" because you buy vegetables even though you know people are being treat in horrendous conditions, in many cases like slaves, and reports of people dying?
Which is what you did with meat eaters?


You want vegetables so you ignore these facts, buy and eat them, and proclaim meat eaters are bad for the very same reasons that happen with the products you buy.



So, are you still going to buy vegetables? What, now you know about such atrocities happening for you to obtain said vegetables? When you stated "after watching how animals are being treated..become vegan"?
Of course you are, because you want those things! So you turn a blind eye and ignore the facts.




It's all terrible, and this is not mine or your fault, it's the government's because they make and enforce the rules, and do nothing about all of this.

There are 7 billion people, and I have no idea of the real % who eat meat, but let's say there are (likely) a billion meat eaters. The problem is too many people and too much commercialism which does not care about cruelty, slave labour, or injustices, only profit.
You not eating meat does nothing. Nothing at all. It saddens me that the world is like this, but you need to realise it is like this, and stop claiming it's all meat eaters fault!

It's everywhere. And yes, we should do whatever we can, but don't point the finger at any human when we are all guilty (even if forced into the situation)!

1. An animal dies in a bad way - I eat its flesh.
2. A human is treat badly, 15 hour day, paid very little, some die because of the conditions - you eat the produce they pick.

Are the two different?








Now, I'm off to make a chicken and prawn curry for tea. Thanks to the animals for dying for me to eat. And you can eat your vegetables thanks to the "slaves" who risk their lives and live in misery to gather the veggies.

 

[tiawalling]

Man has been eating meat as food since time unknown. Why make it an issue now?
Seriously, to each his own.
Vegans can eat all the grass they want, we have no issues with that. Let us have our food in peace.

 

[En]

I have not eaten meat for over 5 years now. My body has completely changed. I never crave meat.

What are you feeding the animals?

Seriously, there is an answer to everything being said. I suggest you research about veganism. Good luck!

 

[En]

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/world-hunger-population-growth-ditching-meat/

 

[En]

This is the most closed-minded and selfish thing I've read in a long time.

I have absolutely no idea how anyone could possibly be self-righteous about proclaiming meat eaters are bad when every single person this planet does something for their own gain which kills or causes serious injustices to someone.


https://www.google.co.uk/#q=cruel+conditions+for+workers+picking+vegetables
At least look at the result titles ^^

People are drowning and dying from poor conditions to get you your vegetables, slaves!
But, yet, you still eat them. Why?

Is the issue of cattle being treat inhumanely more important than humans being essentially slaves, treat so badly, and in many cases due to the conditions, they die?
Of course not. Suffering happens for me to eat meat, but also your clothes, obtaining vegetables, it's no different.

Of course I hate it all. I try to buy and do whatever I can to avoid it all. But the fact is, we cannot escape it, so we can only do bits here and there. You don't eat meat, I do other things.

"Meat eater" does not = "bad person who doesn't care".
Just like "person who only eats vegetables" doesn't = "doesn't care about migrant workers"!!

I'm sorry mate, you're completely delusional and ignorant.

The only people producing those vegetables and buying them are the people that don't care about anything, like many meat eaters here in this thread.

You're supporting all of this.

 

[En]

https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-in...tics/Pages/overweight-obesity-statistics.aspx

More than 2 in 3 adults are considered to be overweight or obese, and it's getting worse...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_tobacco_consumption

Everyone knows the risks of smoking.

Animals must go through this for what?

https://www.google.com/search?q=smo...jobPAhXIWRQKHeaTAhsQ_AUICCgB&biw=1366&bih=655

Do you actually realise, can you possibly imagine, how much suffering humans have put animals through???

Not only have they inflicted these atrocities upon themselves, but they inflict their same actions on other completely innocent lifeforms.

Also most of the suffering is NEEDLESS, that has been caused. Don't pretend that humans are only doing good things for the greater good. That would be a disgraceful insult to the whole universe.

 

[En]

https://www.google.com/search?q=ani...biw=1366&bih=655#tbm=isch&q=animal+abuse+farm

 

[james haw]

Ok. All of this we already knew and try to do something about. And most of it has nothing to do with meat production. Just people being bad to animals. But I understand why someone like you would post irrelevant crap to support your claims.



So what about the subject you have ignored, about the slave workers who pick your vegetables.
What about all that?

 

[En]

Ok. All of this we already knew and try to do something about. And most of it has nothing to do with meat production. Just people being bad to animals. But I understand why someone like you would post irrelevant crap to support your claims.



So what about the subject you have ignored, about the slave workers who pick your vegetables.
What about all that?

Being a vegan does not mean just not eating meat, e.g. http://features.peta.org/how-to-wear-vegan/

It's one thing to act like you care, create this outer appearance persona bubble. But what is under the surface?

Is it not enough already what has been done?

You trust others to be good to farmed animals for you? All of these things are happening RIGHT NOW.

Still right now, dogs are being killed in their thousands per day. When is it enough? When is it going to end?

99% of leather comes from countries with horrendous conditions and treatment of animals.

Why try? Just stop supporting the animal slavery industry.

2 wrongs don't make a right. Obviously no one has the right to take away freedom of any living being.

I get my veg from my local farm shop. There are volunteers that go out and pick, and you can go and pick them yourself if you wish.

Have you ever been down to volunteer in your local slaughterhouse?

Why is it like it is today, already?

 

[hidefind]

So instead of lashing out as if you are all good and meat eaters are bad, perhaps take a look at the bigger picture!
The amount of land needed to cater for an influx in a diets alternative to eating meat would be mammoth, and in itself kill billions of animals! Forests and wildlife areas would be levelled to cater for crop growing. All insects, ants, spiders, bees, etc etc, would also be killed, and this has an affect on the survivability of the surrounding plants, trees, and food for other animals like birds etc.

I'm short on time but I'd like to point out that this is absolutely not true and in fact, we use much more land/energy/water growing and harvesting crops to feed livestock than we do humans. This is partially responsible for my choice to not eat animals.

 

[james haw]

I'd like to point out that this is absolutely not true and in fact, we use much more land/energy/water growing and harvesting crops to feed livestock than we do humans.

That entirely depends on what meat and crop you compare. Beef is the worst, but plenty of crop for human consumption takes a lot of land. Grazing land allows many things to continue to live where crop land does not, and to be fair vice versa - it's not really so black and white.

But, being a non-meat eater does not = "saving the planet". which is what "most" vegans/vegetarians claim, and it's simply not true. I'm not saying everyone, I'm sure plenty of people choose carefully things which actually do save the land, enviroinment etc.

But it's not that black and white, take this for example:
http://www.sciencealert.com/vegetar...ally-be-worse-for-the-environment-study-finds

Eating lettuce is over three times worse in greenhouse gas emissions than eating bacon. Lots of common vegetables require more resources per calorie than you would think. Eggplant, celery and cucumbers look particularly bad when compared to pork or chicken

Surprise:
https://data-wrapper.s3.amazonaws.com/vpwr6/3/index.html


And again, mostly @En as you keep banging on as if I'm the devil's son himself, I hate animal cruelty!
So perhaps you source human friendly veggies, but many meat eaters eat only humanely sourced meat too, so that may well be balanced out (of course accurate data is not available, so we don't know which is better)

The same problem with inhumane treatment to animals for meat supplies exists in the producing of vegetables. Maybe you're not buying them, but what do you think fills the supermarkets, the biggest percentage of veg source? Locally sourced veg by healthy happy pickers?
If a massive number of meat eaters converted, the supply and demand would rise and more workers be slaves and treat so badly.

The problems which need resolving are not limited to meat produce, it's everywhere!
Please, stop picking on and blaming meat eaters and start looking at the real issues around you.

 

[En]

http://www.peta.org/living/food/10-things-wish-everyone-knew-meat-dairy-industries/

The American government spends $38 billion each year to subsidize the meat and dairy industries, but only 0.04 percent of that (i.e., $17 million) each year to subsidize fruits and vegetables.

Put all the resources into veg production, and remove the selfish "devil" meat eaters from power, and the future of veganism would flourish...

https://www.google.com/search?q=fut...34nPAhXMaRQKHdXYDRoQ_AUICSgC&biw=1366&bih=655

The future is vegan, not picking on little baby lambs:

Coward non-forward thinking set in their old ways cavemen brave matcho-man meat eaters.

A factory farm is a large, industrial operation that raises large numbers of animals for food. Over 99% of farm animals in the U.S. are raised in factory farms, which focus on profit and efficiency at the expense of animal welfare.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fac...4onPAhWExxQKHfLNDqUQ_AUICCgB&biw=1366&bih=655

What is the future you prefer for your kids?

How do we end violence when we can be violent and eat little baby animals to make us feel happy whilst watching death and destruction on TV?

Whatever peeps. Choose your future.

 

[En]

Superior supremacist meat eater humans:

Such bravery! Bravo you amazing intelligent meat eaters!

https://www.google.com/search?q=gor...7B4KHd2eCf8Q_AUICSgC&biw=1366&bih=655#imgrc=_

This is not right tho because it's not a cow!