Brandbucket Challenges Dnbolt For Reporting Sales Data

[Dnbolt]

Hi guys today I made a final decision to join namepros. I don’t normally participate in forums discussions etc. I have BIG concern that I want to share with you and get your opinions.

Little bit about myself: l am a student, I recently developed interest in data, I am a part time domain investor, I spend most of my time creating unbeatable algorithms and finally as you may know I publish BB sales at dnbolt

About a year I started developing interests in brandabale domain. I needed to get some insight about sold domains from brandbucket but quickly learnt brandbucket doesn’t publish them. But fortunately enough we all know that in the domain name world most data is obtainable, right?

To keep things short, I have been getting emails from brandbucket asking me if I can prevent making the data crawlable by search engine technically asking me to make the content available to just myself.
Months later I got a forwarded email asking if I can obfuscate the sold domains I have listed to prevent google indexing the content. But to be honest if google index my content on search how is that my problem?
Surprisingly they have even gone the extent of contacting my hosting provider. I was a little bit upset that they contacted my hosting as I was only being helpful providing data to those who needed it and instead of getting a pat on the back for my hard work, I got accused and an invisible spanking.


My question to you is.

1. How can a marketplace try to claim ownership or exclusive rights to a domain that has been SOLD and no longer listed on the site for sale?
2. How can a SOLD DOMAIN still belong to the previous marketplace in any way, shape or or form?
3. Why can’t they be happy that I am helping them to publish sales data for free?
4. Does BB have any right to challenge Dnbolt for the kind service he renders?
5. Do I have to listen to BB and stop proving sales data to the public?


I would like to hear your thoughts thanks.

 

[Dnbolt]

Are you? Is that why you feel you have the right to post details of the sales I made with BrandBucket here at NamePros.

And everyone elses. Even though we all keep asking you to stop?

Madam have a good day, save this question for another time. Bye

 

[Chris Hydrick]

Exactly! It is NOT for scraping BrandBucket then publishing NP members details all over the place.

What NP members details has DNBolt published? I have seen no evidence of this. I've seen domain names which a WHOIS check contains email addresses and I've seen a pie chart that has abbreviated WHOIS names. I don't see how this is considered NP members details.

Do you share your brandable sales on NamePros? If not, is your concern the fact that they're being published? From my perspective, this seems to be an issue of one side trying to keep brandable domain sales private vs those who wish to make this data public.

I'm pro public sales data and that's why I support services like NameBio.com and DNBolt.com

 

[London555]

Exactly! It is NOT for scraping BrandBucket then publishing NP members details all over the place.

Why shouldn't he post them? You've stated here on NP that you have over $1.1 million in BB listed names. What you forgot to mention to the new people that read this thread is that at your current rate of selling approx. 11 names a year ( I think you said you have 500 on BB) it will take you -with renewals-about 60 years to sell those names and probably more. I have a degree in mathematics but you certainly don't need one to figure out that as your inventory winds down by 11 to 15 names a year in sales and BB adds names at even a minimal rate the probabilities of your names selling goes south exponentially. That said-I wish you the best-but let's not mislead any new people here with your $1.1 million statement. (btw I don't think you intentionally mislead anyone).

 

[GoKaizen]

I've never asked nor will I ever ask @Dnbolt to stop posting information.

Thank You for providing such a useful resource.

 

[Dnbolt]

I've never asked nor will I ever ask @Dnbolt to stop posting information.

Thank You for providing such a useful resource.

Feel much better now after @Ted Levy made feel a bit sad.

 

[JimJammy]

Why shouldn't he post them? You've stated here on NP that you have over $1.1 million in BB listed names. What you forgot to mention to the new people that read this thread is that at your current rate of selling approx. 11 names a year ( I think you said you have 500 on BB) it will take you -with renewals-about 60 years to sell those names and probably more. I have a degree in mathematics but you certainly don't need one to figure out that as your inventory winds down by 11 to 15 names a year in sales and BB adds names at even a minimal rate the probabilities of your names selling goes south exponentially. That said-I wish you the best-but let's not mislead any new people here with your $1.1 million statement. (btw I don't think you intentionally mislead anyone).

They are MY names, not his. BB terms states names should not be posted, I've asked him not to post my names and many other members here have asked him not to post their names and sales data too.

You'd be OK with me posting details of your domains, sale prices and real name here? Surely that would be OK too wouldn't it? Of course it wouldn't!

I haven't had 500 names on BB for a year, I have 500 names now. At the end of May last year I had 1 name on BB.

 

[JimJammy]

I've never asked nor will I ever ask @Dnbolt to stop posting information.

Thank You for providing such a useful resource.

Great! Adam27 gives you permission to post his information. Again, I do not give you permission to share mine.

 

[GoKaizen]

@Dnbolt is not a seller on BB.

As someone else mentioned in this thread if BB was so concerned about the info they could just hire or pay him. AFAIK they have done neither. He should just continue what he's doing.

 

[London555]

They are MY names, not his. BB terms states names should not be posted, I've asked him not to post my names and many other members here have asked him not to post their names and sales data too.

You'd be OK with me posting details of your domains, sale prices and real name here? Surely that would be OK too wouldn't it? Of course it wouldn't!

I haven't had 500 names on BB for a year, I have 500 names now. At the end of May last year I had 1 name on BB.

Oh I'm sorry-I thought you said you've had 500 names on BB for a year. In that case your 60 years to sell them all starts now.

 

[JimJammy]

DNBolt IS a member of BB (I don't think he has actually sold anything). Much as he likes to share everyone elses data, he forgets to mention his own.

 

[Recons.Com]

So is the grievance about the name publishing or sold domain names?

If the former, DNBolt, if I understand correctly, doesn't mind publishing full names of owners (initials only or the profile name only, maybe?). If the latter, many appreciate the service DNBolt does, as it allows to fine tune what names to focus on for acquisitions.

But you cannot achieve that he completely excludes your sold names from his reports, because you, for some reason, don't like that.

And few of you attacking his character is not nice either. From my impression, he has shown willingness to adjust to make images for sold names, instead of text etc.

 

[GoKaizen]

Since BB takes a 30% of commission, Dnbolt.com should just keep it indexable and text based for search crawlers.

 

[JimJammy]

So is the grievance about the name publishing or sold domain names?

The grievances are:
Michael said:

Hi @Dnbolt All we have asked is that you obfuscate the names and not allow the site to be indexed in order to keep the sale confidential for our customers. The indexing of these sales can have a negative impact on our sellers if our customers see their names listed. are not pleased, and shy away from making future purchases.

He may have obfuscated the names on his site but he regularly posts domain names and details here for BB customers to find - exactly what BB is stipulating they don't want to happen.
I said:

Hey Jack, I contacted your hosting provider. I do not work for BrandBucket.

1. I do not appreciate my personal information being passed around the internet.
2. It is MY business if I sold a domain and what price I sold it for, not yours nor anyone elses.
3. There are people (more than one) that you have taken it upon yourself to provide my email address, and details of my sales to, that think it's OK to contact me... they expect free tutoring/advice. It's not OK.
4. BB clearly state on their website that the DO NOT ALLOW details of their sales to be shared: Information on any domain name sold at BrandBucket, including the name, price and/or logo design may not be listed on your personal website or other marketplace without BrandBucket's approval. BrandBucket retains the right to be the sole publisher of sales information in order to comply with customers' needs to make this information private at any time.
5. BB have obviously contacted you direct as they feel the information you are providing could have a negative impact on sellers/customers. I do not appreciate you doing anything that could have a negative impact on my sales.
6. In THIS thread Michael has further stated that this could have a negative impact on sellers/customers. I do not appreciate you doing anything that could have a negative impact on my sales.
.
I do not appreciate you doing anything that could have a negative impact on my sales. Remove my domains, my name, my email address and everything else that I may be associated from both your website and the lists provided to your 'clients'.

Thanks

Other than removing email addresses, he has ignored me.
@Keith DeBoer said:

@Dnbolt,You are a BrandBucket seller and you have published information about other peoples sales on your website. Including, at times, BB seller's email addresses. I know because I saw my email address on your website.

So you are exposing other people but you yourself are hiding. You have not published your real life name or the name of your BB portfolio. You have also not made your BB sales public. I don't understand how you think it is fair, or right, or just, to hide in the shadows while you publish and advertise information that violates your contract with BB as a seller, and which some BB sellers, have asked you not to publish.

@Nat Hunt said:

OK take down my names from your site. Remove that chart that shows sellers' names. And in good faith, reveal your real name, because you have put others' out there.

@Arca said:

As others have pointed out, you force BrandBucket staff and BrandBucket sellers to be transparent about their domain sales, and the number of names they have sold, even though many of them have requested you not to do so.

At the same time, you hide your own name, the domain names you own, your BrandBucket portfolio, and your BrandBucket sales. I constantly keep seeing your posts about BrandBucket these days, but I still don't know anything about what you do as a domainer or as a BrandBucket seller.

Do you see the discrepancy here? It is hypocritical of you to act as a BB domain sales transparency watchdog, while simultaneous being entirely secretive about all information relating to yourself regarding the same matter.

@Ted Levy said:

@Dnbolt You are nothing but an internet troll, a trouble-maker, and a slimeball who is playing silly techie games trying to show the world how smart you are by hacking/ scraping/ (whatever it is you do), and then publishing proprietary information to the detriment of the legitimate sellers and buyers of BB names, not to mention to the management/ ownership of BB.

You are costing honest people money and then adopting some faux naive "who me?" attitude denying the reality of the harm you are doing and wrapping it all up in the glorious banner of "public service." You are a sick joke.

Please go away.

I'm sure I could find more.

Clearly, many people who have had their domain name sales and details shared by DNBolt are not happy about it.

 

[Chris Hydrick]

Please go away.

Perhaps, I am in part to blame for DNBolts NP presence. As with most of my domain related correspondence, I always try to connect with and/or promote NamePros as the go to place for anything domaining.

I emailed DNBolt prior to them joining NamePros, and as you can see from my email screenshot, their intentions seem pure, and focused only on trying to become a better domainer by analyzing what sells. Two weeks later DNBolt joined NamePros. I expected NP to give them a warm welcoming. DNBolt has shown a willingness to adapt to our concerns. We are all here to learn as equals.

MK and other privileged / technologically advanced BB sellers have had access to a database of sold brandable domains. MK is BB's most successful seller, selling at near double the rate of the average seller. Is it at all possible that MK's knowledge of sold BB domains has contributed to his success?

 

[Eckhart]

Information on any domain name sold at BrandBucket, including the name, price and/or logo design may not be listed on your personal website or other marketplace without BrandBucket's approval.

It says with BB approval and they allowed him to share the data only if he obfuscates it, which he did. So he is OK with BB, he is not breaking any rules. And about the personal data, he removed any personal data. He is clearly not sharing any of your emails/names in his reports anymore.

@JimJammy , @Nat Hunt , @Ted Levy

Guys, why do you keep bashing the guy? He is young, he made a few mistakes, but he repaired them all. Both obfuscation of data and sharing personal info are taken care of. He did everything we asked him and he is providing a free service in good faith, why treat him like this?

 

[London555]

It says with BB approval and they allowed him to share the data only if he obfuscates it, which he did. So he is OK with BB, he is not breaking any rules. And about the personal data, he removed any personal data. He is clearly not sharing any of your emails/names in his reports anymore.

@JimJammy , @Nat Hunt , @Ted Levy

Guys, why do you keep bashing the guy? He is young, he made a few mistakes, but he repaired them all. Both obfuscation of data and sharing personal info are taken care of. He did everything we asked him and he is providing a free service in good faith, why treat him like this?

If I were BB I'd be looking to hire him not break him. Ive never seen a thread here on NP with so much tumult. BB obviously has an image issue among retail domainers that they could easily clear up by simply releasing some information re: "insider sales ratio" etc that they-and it's certainly their right-refuse to release. That said-they're successful-apparently profitable and are getting away without releasing a thing thus far other than their annual gross sales-so why change?

 

[Keith DeBoer]

When brandbucket rejected most of my domains then I started Dnbolt.com so myself and others can better understand what they are looking and tap into the success. My name could be found on my blog.

Hi DNbolt,

• You said "My name could be found on my blog." but I don't see your name on your blog. It's not on the about page of your website. Can you provide a URL or tell me where I can find it?
  
• Since you are publishing my sold names on your website can you please publish here or on your website your BB sold names?
• You do not provide any contact info on the Contact page of your website only a link to your NamePros profile.
  
• Lastly, your website is under privacy protection. I find this odd for someone who feels they are not doing anything wrong and who says they are fighting for freedom of information.
  
• Can you provide the above information for me please? Just for educational purposes?

Thank you very much,

Keith

 

[jamesau]

@Dnbolt It might help if you could answer this question: have you sold any BrandBucket domain names that were not included in your public lists?

There seems to be a bit of confusion over that point which is causing some unrest.

As for the indexing of this sales data, it is absolutely copyright and technically illegal. However Google is the biggest perpetrator in this field, so it would be unreasonable to pick on the little guy if you don't also take up your argument against Google.

I'm not sure if BB have requested to completely shut this down, but from what I can see their requests to date have been reasonable. We should be looking out for fellow businesses and not deliberately trying to damage them. It does appear that Dnbolt has yielded to all of BB's requests to date.

All this considered I will speak hypothetically now. If BB wanted to completely block this data they should also block robots from indexing their site and lose all that organic traffic from Google. As soon as the information is out there it's republished hundreds of times. It's hypocritical to pick and choose who can break the law.

Broadly put, anything published on your website is your copyright, but if you allow Google to index and republish it, you can't complain when somebody else does it too.

Equally if you have privacy concerns about the publishing of your own data, your first argument should not be with Dnbolt. You allow your data to be published on WHOIS websites so you can generate sales leads, so equally your data should be allowed anywhere. Again it's hypocritical otherwise.

I'm not arguing as to the ethics either way, just pointing out some of the facts.

 

[Recons.Com]

@Dnbolt It might help if you could answer this question: have you sold any BrandBucket domain names that were not included in your public lists?

There seems to be a bit of confusion over that point which is causing some unrest.

As for the indexing of this sales data, it is absolutely copyright and technically illegal. However Google is the biggest perpetrator in this field, so it would be unreasonable to pick on the little guy if you don't also take up your argument against Google.

I'm not sure if BB have requested to completely shut this down, but from what I can see their requests to date have been reasonable. We should be looking out for fellow businesses and not deliberately trying to damage them. It does appear that Dnbolt has yielded to all of BB's requests to date.

All this considered I will speak hypothetically now. If BB wanted to completely block this data they should also block robots from indexing their site and lose all that organic traffic from Google. As soon as the information is out there it's republished hundreds of times. It's hypocritical to pick and choose who can break the law.

Broadly put, anything published on your website is your copyright, but if you allow Google to index and republish it, you can't complain when somebody else does it too.

Equally if you have privacy concerns about the publishing of your own data, your first argument should not be with Dnbolt. You allow your data to be published on WHOIS websites so you can generate sales leads, so equally your data should be allowed anywhere. Again it's hypocritical otherwise.

I'm not arguing as to the ethics either way, just pointing out some of the facts.

Agree. If someone wants to go completely stealth, they can create a profile with a random name on BB, then get there names via a registrar that provides free whois privacy.

 

[Chris Hydrick]

@Dnbolt It might help if you could answer this question: have you sold any BrandBucket domain names that were not included in your public lists?

Great question!

I'm not arguing as to the ethics either way, just pointing out some of the facts.

Thank you for sharing your objective analysis.

 

[DU]

As for the indexing of this sales data, it is absolutely copyright and technically illegal. However Google is the biggest perpetrator in this field, so it would be unreasonable to pick on the little guy if you don't also take up your argument against Google.

All this considered I will speak hypothetically now. If BB wanted to completely block this data they should also block robots from indexing their site and lose all that organic traffic from Google. As soon as the information is out there it's republished hundreds of times. It's hypocritical to pick and choose who can break the law.

I'm not arguing as to the ethics either way, just pointing out some of the facts.

Emphasis is mine.

Publicly accessible information is allowed to be accessed and used for any number of legal reasons. Whether the usage of the data is illegal is not chosen by Brandbucket but is determined by the prevailing law. Copyright laws protect expression and infringement is based on the usage and whether it is transformative etc This is certainly transformative because BB publishes no data that looks like this at all. DNBolt is taking data that is publicly available and providing a new beneficial service. There have been peculiar rulings that "caching" and "parsing a copy" somehow violate the law but I'm of the opinion that if it came to it that the EFF would be willing to step in and fight the fight on any of those cases (and win). Could be wrong .

There are some issues to be wary of - if your scraping is something that could be confused for DDOS you have an issue. If you constantly try to bypass efforts to lock you out (IP Blocks, C&D notes etc.) Publishing PII or PSI is of course a very serious issue but it doesn't appear that Dnbolt is harvesting or publishing any.

I really would be interested in case law that shows this is absolutely and factually breaking the law (albeit caveated with "technically").as I'd like to be more educated on this. Do you have any links?

It might help if you could answer this question: have you sold any BrandBucket domain names that were not included in your public lists?

Why would that matter? I've never seen anyone ask if Namebio includes sales of whoever runs Namebio. Has anyone ask DNJournal if Ron lists his own sales? Has anyone asked for the evidence of accuracy there?

That said, if someone wanted to see those sales they could do what DNBolt is doing and compile their own lists.

Equally if you have privacy concerns about the publishing of your own data, your first argument should not be with Dnbolt. You allow your data to be published on WHOIS websites so you can generate sales leads, so equally your data should be allowed anywhere. Again it's hypocritical otherwise

I still haven't figured out what the real issue people have is

 

[Chris Hydrick]

Publicly accessible information is allowed to be accessed and used for any number of legal reasons. Whether the usage of the data is illegal is not chosen by Brandbucket but is determined by the prevailing law. Copyright laws protect expression and infringement is based on the usage and whether it is transformative etc This is certainly transformative because BB publishes no data that looks like this at all. DNBolt is taking data that is publicly available and providing a new beneficial service. There have been peculiar rulings that "caching" and "parsing a copy" somehow violate the law but I'm of the opinion that if it came to it that the EFF would be willing to step in and fight the fight on any of those cases (and win). Could be wrong .

There are some issues to be wary of - if your scraping is something that could be confused for DDOS you have an issue. If you constantly try to bypass efforts to lock you out (IP Blocks, C&D notes etc.) Publishing PII or PSI is of course a very serious issue but it doesn't appear that Dnbolt is harvesting or publishing any.

I really would be interested in case law that shows this is absolutely and factually breaking the law (albeit caveated with "technically").as I'd like to be more educated on this. Do you have any links?

+1 @DU - thank you for the insight!

Why would that matter? I've never seen anyone ask if Namebio includes sales of whoever runs Namebio. Has anyone ask DNJournal if Ron lists his own sales? Has anyone asked for the evidence of accuracy there?

In part, I think you are right. The below question shouldn't matter: However...

@Dnbolt It might help if you could answer this question: have you sold any BrandBucket domain names that were not included in your public lists?

I thought it was more relevant than the multiple requests, see below, for DNBolt to share their sold BB domains. (no disrespect intended)

Since you are publishing my sold names on your website can you please publish here or on your website your BB sold names?

If it's not, you can post up your names and sales as requested can't you?

Everyone please notice that when asked for personal information about himself, @Dnbolt evades, but he is not evasive when putting others' information out there.

I can only assume why some members have repeatedly asked the above questions, either:

(a) To discredit DNBolt if DNBolt has yet to find success with BB (if no sales)
(b) To ensure DNBolt was removing their sold domains from the data
(c) They're genuinely interested in what DNBolt has sold. I showed you mine you show me yours.
(d) They feel violated their sold domain was posted publicly to a community of people who use that information to make more educated brandable domain purchases based off sales.
(e) The flying spaghetti monster?
(f) There's more to this than the above assumptions

 

[Dnbolt]

Hi DNbolt,

• You said "My name could be found on my blog." but I don't see your name on your blog. It's not on the about page of your website. Can you provide a URL or tell me where I can find it?
  
• Since you are publishing my sold names on your website can you please publish here or on your website your BB sold names?
• You do not provide any contact info on the Contact page of your website only a link to your NamePros profile.
  
• Lastly, your website is under privacy protection. I find this odd for someone who feels they are not doing anything wrong and who says they are fighting for freedom of information.
  
• Can you provide the above information for me please? Just for educational purposes?

Thank you very much,

Keith

I will address all your questions in due course bear with me. I will make update to address most if not all of your questions.

 

[Dnbolt]

They are MY names, not his. BB terms states names should not be posted, I've asked him not to post my names and many other members here have asked him not to post their names and sales data too.

You'd be OK with me posting details of your domains, sale prices and real name here? Surely that would be OK too wouldn't it? Of course it wouldn't!

I haven't had 500 names on BB for a year, I have 500 names now. At the end of May last year I had 1 name on BB.

I'm afraid if the name are sold then its no longer yours. However, I will be more than happy to remove any names that still belongs you in other words NOT sold.

Thanks

 

[Keith DeBoer]

I will address all your questions in due course bear with me. I will make update to address most if not all of your questions.

Thanks DNbolt, I look forward to receiving that information.