New gTLD investor Demographics

[atinc]

When it comes to the renewal time I keep my new gTLDs and drop most of my .com domains.

I think new gTLDs are under estimated as of today and will keep grow in value in time.

Most of the new gTLD bashers are middle aged or just old as I observed on namePros and I understand why they hate new gTLDs so much because it effects their .com aftermarket sales while there are super generics available with new gTLDs.

I am curious about the demographics of new gTLD investors.

I am 28 years old and I think young people will determine how the new internet will be shaped.

This thread is exclusive for only new gTLD investors to prevent bashers to speculate on the results.

Please go ahead and participate the poll to see the average age of new gTLD investors.

 

[atinc]

Demographics doesn't matter here at all.

I have a marketing background so it matters to me.

I think you are wrong about your claim here :

most domainers prefer traditional TLDs where risks/costs are significantly lower and returns are significantly higher...

Because as of today there are no low-cost high quality domains available for reg. fee with those traditional TLDs.

Also, lower cost with high returns is really rare, still it depends on what year you get involved with domaining.

If you are investing 500 or 1000 domains with low cost TLDs, that really doesn`t make your investment risk-free. We are talking about min $5000 - $10000 range with renewals each year. In 10 years this is $50000 - $100000 investment.

I know you are one of them right?

Have thousands of domains in your portfolio?

I respect that and wish you best of luck.

And most Tier1 English words are Premiums for enduser fee or so

Yes most of them, but definitely not all of them.

 

[Jurgen Wolf]

Many good and even top names (and in major languages) are available even for regfee in traditional gTLDs and ccTLDs...
For regfee it is impossible only for .com
+ you may catch or buy them for affordable reseller price...
etc.

My own experience for 3 years with ~700 various nTLD-domains shows that no any gain for me even against .info/.biz returns...

 

[atinc]

Many good and even top names (and in major languages) are available even for regfee in traditional gTLDs and ccTLDs...
For regfee it is impossible only for .com
+ you may catch or buy them for affordable reseller price...
etc.

My own experience for 3 years with ~700 various nTLD-domains shows that no any gain for me even against .info/.biz returns...

Thanks for clarifying that.

I assumed you were talking about .com .net .org

 

[Jurgen Wolf]

I'm talking about all popular TLDs among endusers...
.PRO/.COM/.NET/.ORG and German/French .info
.me/.in/.io/.TV and other strong ccTLDs like .DE/.NL/.CO.UK/.PL/.RU etc.

 

[Kate]

How can you discern that ntld investors are less experienced with domain names on average? What evidence can you provide to support that argument?

Very fair question.

I have my own idea based on what I've seen and heard from ntld investors here and elsewhere.
You can tell some people are newcomers just by their comments that are naïve, or loaded with wishful thinking.
No knowledge of history: how was the Internet landscape in 2000 and even before. Worse: no willingness to learn... ignoring the inconvenient history, dismissing the experience of veterans. This time it will be different ! Yes, it's always different... but it repeats itself. .asia .mobi .whatever. Same script, different players, same outcome.

Ignoring the history of failed extensions in the past. New extensions are not new.
You can tell some people are newcomers by their registration date.
Or their unhealthy portfolios (made up of new extensions 100% or 90% or still too much).
Or their absence of track record making sales.
If you haven't even sold .com you don't have the proof of concept. Trying to sell nTLDs is going to be even more difficult. If you haven't made sales, you are de facto less experienced.

it's the "youngsters" that are the ones innovating obsolete technologies. The past definitely helps the future, but you have to understand that at some point, the past becomes irrelevant. The internet stops for no one, you can either keep talking and debating about "oldies" vs "newbies" or adapt to the change and take advantage of the future.

New extensions work exactly like the old ones, so there is no technological progress involved at all. Thus old extensions are no more obsolete than the new. That is from a technical POV. From a marketing/awareness POV, new extensions have not achieved much.
The Internet is changing, for example it has shifted from desktop to mobile in a few years. But the underlying protocols are awfully old and stable in comparison. Domain name are not mere technical identifiers, they are brands and even virtual flags (ccTLDs). Some people seem to think they have little relevance and can easily exchanged be when it's not the case.

For example, in 2016, how many domainers would have thought a domain like shop.link or live.bingo, could go for more than low x,xxx? Apart from the usual suspects in the ngtld crowd, most would be against the idea of them even selling for $1500 bucks, but that's the difference between actual expertise in a niche and those who rely on dissimilar knowledge to speculate.

It's nothing surprising, there are always flukes. Always have been, in pretty much every extension. Still doesn't mean it's a smart investment. Especially when it's almost always the registries making the significant sales.

Also, most successful domainers are very critical of new extensions and tend to avoid them. Even Berkens who is doing better than average has had a bad experience with them, that he posted on his blog.
It's possible that they are not comfortable with new extensions and stuck with their old habits, like R Schwarz for example. But that is not a satisfactory explanation. These people know what they are doing, and they have a proven track record. If nTLDs were a great opportunity, then they would be seizing it. Of course, they know the risk is much higher and the financial reward just may not be there. And even the rules are not the same: no pricing caps, clawbacks, unethical conduct from some registries, bad reputation, in the face of sluggish consumer demand.

Some people will make sales though, but fewer people will be making repeat sales. And even fewer will be making big sales in new extensions. Unless maybe they are a registry.

 

[slader23]

Very fair question.

I have my own idea based on what I've seen and heard from ntld investors here and elsewhere.
You can tell some people are newcomers just by their comments that are naïve, or loaded with wishful thinking.
No knowledge of history: how was the Internet landscape in 2000 and even before. Worse: no willingness to learn... ignoring the inconvenient history, dismissing the experience of veterans. This time it will be different ! Yes, it's always different... but it repeats itself. .asia .mobi .whatever. Same script, different players, same outcome.

Ignoring the history of failed extensions in the past. New extensions are not new.
You can tell some people are newcomers by their registration date.
Or their unhealthy portfolios (made up of new extensions 100% or 90% or still too much).
Or their absence of track record making sales.
If you haven't even sold .com you don't have the proof of concept. Trying to sell nTLDs is going to be even more difficult. If you haven't made sales, you are de facto less experienced.


New extensions work exactly like the old ones, so there is no technological progress involved at all. Thus old extensions are no more obsolete than the new. That is from a technical POV. From a marketing/awareness POV, new extensions have not achieved much.
The Internet is changing, for example it has shifted from desktop to mobile in a few years. But the underlying protocols are awfully old and stable in comparison. Domain name are not mere technical identifiers, they are brands and even virtual flags (ccTLDs). Some people seem to think they have little relevance and can easily exchanged be when it's not the case.

It's nothing surprising, there are always flukes. Always have been, in pretty much every extension. Still doesn't mean it's a smart investment. Especially when it's almost always the registries making the significant sales.

Also, most successful domainers are very critical of new extensions and tend to avoid them. Even Berkens who is doing better than average has had a bad experience with them, that he posted on his blog.
It's possible that they are not comfortable with new extensions and stuck with their old habits, like R Schwarz for example. But that is not a satisfactory explanation. These people know what they are doing, and they have a proven track record. If nTLDs were a great opportunity, then they would be seizing it. Of course, they know the risk is much higher and the financial reward just may not be there. And even the rules are not the same: no pricing caps, clawbacks, unethical conduct from some registries, bad reputation, in the face of sluggish consumer demand.

Some people will make sales though, but fewer people will be making repeat sales. And even fewer will be making big sales in new extensions. Unless maybe they are a registry.

Very fair question.

I have my own idea based on what I've seen and heard from ntld investors here and elsewhere.
You can tell some people are newcomers just by their comments that are naïve, or loaded with wishful thinking.
No knowledge of history: how was the Internet landscape in 2000 and even before. Worse: no willingness to learn... ignoring the inconvenient history, dismissing the experience of veterans. This time it will be different ! Yes, it's always different... but it repeats itself. .asia .mobi .whatever. Same script, different players, same outcome.

Ignoring the history of failed extensions in the past. New extensions are not new.
You can tell some people are newcomers by their registration date.
Or their unhealthy portfolios (made up of new extensions 100% or 90% or still too much).
Or their absence of track record making sales.
If you haven't even sold .com you don't have the proof of concept. Trying to sell nTLDs is going to be even more difficult. If you haven't made sales, you are de facto less experienced.


New extensions work exactly like the old ones, so there is no technological progress involved at all. Thus old extensions are no more obsolete than the new. That is from a technical POV. From a marketing/awareness POV, new extensions have not achieved much.
The Internet is changing, for example it has shifted from desktop to mobile in a few years. But the underlying protocols are awfully old and stable in comparison. Domain name are not mere technical identifiers, they are brands and even virtual flags (ccTLDs). Some people seem to think they have little relevance and can easily exchanged be when it's not the case.

It's nothing surprising, there are always flukes. Always have been, in pretty much every extension. Still doesn't mean it's a smart investment. Especially when it's almost always the registries making the significant sales.

Also, most successful domainers are very critical of new extensions and tend to avoid them. Even Berkens who is doing better than average has had a bad experience with them, that he posted on his blog.
It's possible that they are not comfortable with new extensions and stuck with their old habits, like R Schwarz for example. But that is not a satisfactory explanation. These people know what they are doing, and they have a proven track record. If nTLDs were a great opportunity, then they would be seizing it. Of course, they know the risk is much higher and the financial reward just may not be there. And even the rules are not the same: no pricing caps, clawbacks, unethical conduct from some registries, bad reputation, in the face of sluggish consumer demand.

Some people will make sales though, but fewer people will be making repeat sales. And even fewer will be making big sales in new extensions. Unless maybe they are a registry.

I can't believe at this stage you call these sales flukes....good word.word hacks will sell in the xx,xxx+ range and in some cases 4 figures is the average price for a reseller due to the quality of the name. In fact over the past 72 hours I know of two premium word.word hacks that sold to other resellers for 4 figures, if you want proof of that please PM me and I'll tell the names and provide you the links confirming the sales. One was for 1k the other for $2500 and this is reseller pricing on recently hand registered domains. If you're not paying serious attention to how this niche operates then you wouldn't actually know anything about how value is derived and how the ecosystem functions overall. For example I could be a ford dealer and know everything about ford cars, but when asked about Hyundai's I'd have only general level knowledge of what their cars offer, acquisition costs and how much value they give car buyers. IMHO, this is the case for you because to me, it looks like you've already put off new g's and are just speculating.

I see lots of IF's but no real tangible arguments. Every smart investor has to take a very serious look at the barriers to entry, regulatory environment and overall risk/reward of a position before they pull the trigger and invest. If you can't do this you are bound to end up in the red. That is to say, as much as you would not like to hear this, the fact is, experienced ngtld domainers do know what they are doing when it comes to new g's...if only you would spend some time reading into our separate community you would realize that there is a thriving group of new gtld domainers...who have some of the best names you can get(with reasonable renewals) and make unreported sales that you would probably have never expected given your already evident bias towards this class of domains. I can't help but notice that you and other bashers have a condescending tone towards new g domainers....it's always been about being better or more experienced and never about what is actually happening.


Just take the time to look, learn and chat with new g domainers...that is if you actually intend to gain a more thorough understanding of what is actually happening in this niche...if not...fair enough.

 

[JB Lions]

Just take the time to look, learn and chat with new g domainers...that is if you actually intend to gain a more thorough understanding of what is actually happening in this niche...if not...fair enough.

Ok, share your new gtld sales.

Back to you asking how can you tell when somebody is new. When they say stuff like:

"it's the "youngsters" that are the ones innovating obsolete technologies."

What's an obsolete technology?

Youngsters? Who are they? Can't be startups, since they're picking .ai more often than new gtlds combined. Or do you mean youngster domainers?

 

[slader23]

Ok, share your new gtld sales.

My sales will remain private from this forum, I don't even report my .com sales here or to namebio and I sell those in a much higher quantity. Disclosing sales on this topic in particular would also be irrelevant to the OP, although I've already done it once(sorry). If you are interested in unreported ngtld sales, I'll refer you to a separate forum via PM. I cannot link it here because that would be against the rules.

 

[JB Lions]

I receive offers on my new gTLDs and I refuse to sell them today cause I don`t need that money now and I know their price will go up and up, I can see that from the offers I receive and I am sure because millions of new businesses establishing in world by those young entrepreneurs and businessmen and women.

You know their price will go up based on what exactly? You said you're not a domainer. You've sold 0 domains in your life. The only person I know here who does sell them, is selling them on average for half of what he did last year.

I find it very absurd when people calling them self as experienced domainer while they do not invest on new gTLDs and making claims about new gTLDs.

Might be one of the more ridiculous things you've posted. Somebody again, that's never sold a domain in his life, is continually giving advice on investing in new gtlds. Now, that is absurd.

People claiming that new gTLDs have no SEO advantage yet when I type an OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) number on Google which is in my inventory, our new gTLD website shows on the first page, and that happened in less than 6 months. (If you are interested please search the following product number, the new gTLD site you will see on the first page belongs to me, it is also listed first on the first page of Google). → 0445110642

Now, you're demonstarting your lack of SEO knowledge. There are only About 127 results for that query. You should be on page 1. That's the example you're going with? Or did you not realize you can rank with any extension?

https://www.google.com/search?q=0445110642+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

My intention for creating this post was to receive some marketing data about new gTLDs, but as it always happens, bashers making this personal and asking out of topic questions.
I got used to that now.

You bash on your first post, then get upset if you get it back.

 

[JB Lions]

My sales will remain private from this forum,

It's a trend with you guys. It's either you're not selling anything at all, or the prices are so low you don't want to post them. You said ask about it, I did. You folded.

You
Ask me to get insight.

Me
I ask.

You
I can't, it will remain private.

And what is the obsolete technology you were talking about?

I know the other forum, I was interested in your own sales, you can post them here.

And I don't see anybody saying sales aren't being made. There are 20 something million regs, sales are going to happen. But how many are actually making money, profit? Read this thread:

Sold $25,000 in new gtlds, but spent $45,000 with thousands in renewals coming.

Or selling $12,000-$15,000 in new gtlds a year, but has yearly renewals of $88,000.

These 2 examples are from people thinking they were new gtld success stories.

https://www.namepros.com/threads/everyone-saying-to-not-invest-in-gtld.1018888/page-2#post-6158595

 

[Jurgen Wolf]

I sold only 2 nTLDs as of today...
Non-English .TOP + the same .work = $973

 

[slader23]

It's a trend with you guys. It's either you're not selling anything at all, or the prices are so low you don't want to post them. You said ask about it, I did. You folded.

You
Ask me to get insight.

Me
I ask.

You
I can't, it will remain private.

And what is the obsolete technology you were talking about?

I know the other forum, I was interested in your own sales, you can post them here.

You have been PM'd. I took a leap of faith and even shared a bit more than I should have. I hope the information I provided was satisfactory.

 

[JB Lions]

Jb Lions no offense but I am pretty sure that I am receiving more offers than your total sales man.

You mention your offers a lot. Which domains? I just took another look and you have lots of new gtlds I can go and hand reg right now in .com

SohoShoppingFashion
ChampsElyseesFashion
SohoShoppingFashion
SavileRowStore
SparkPlugShop
GlowPlugShop
CommonRailShop
ShockAbsorberShop
BrakePadShop
...................... and more.

There is no way you're getting lots of offers on your names.

Side note, your forum on your site is getting spammed with live streaming NCAA college football spam links.

 

[slader23]

You mention your offers a lot. Which domains? I just took another look and you have lots of new gtlds I can go and hand reg right now in .com

SohoShoppingFashion
ChampsElyseesFashion
SohoShoppingFashion
SavileRowStore
SparkPlugShop
GlowPlugShop
CommonRailShop
ShockAbsorberShop
BrakePadShop
...................... and more.

There is no way you're getting lots of offers on your names.

Side note, your forum on your site is getting spammed with live streaming NCAA college football spam links.

Be gentle . I would say that unless it's a great two word combination that makes sense like UsedCars.Forsale for example, having two words in the sld of a new gtld domain makes it a very hard sale...even through outbound. If the full phrase without the dot is available in .com....then I would probably drop it. At least 10 extensions have to be taken for the full phrase for it to be a worthwhile ngtld investment imho. I'm not trying to bash your names @atinc because I'm also a new g investor, just trying to help you move in the right direction with your acquisitions. I'm sure you have some that are much better.

 

[Jurgen Wolf]

We are talking about min $5000 - $10000 range with renewals each year.

Renewals are not mandatory at all, because dropcatch competition on them is ~0, so you may reregister them again (if needed) for promofee.

 

[Kate]

I can't believe at this stage you call these sales flukes....good word.word hacks will sell in the xx,xxx+ range and in some cases 4 figures is the average price for a reseller due to the quality of the name. In fact over the past 72 hours I know of two premium word.word hacks that sold to other resellers for 4 figures, if you want proof of that please PM me and I'll tell the names and provide you the links confirming the sales. One was for 1k the other for $2500 and this is reseller pricing on recently hand registered domains.

I have no doubts that sales are taking place. The reported sales are only the tip of the iceberg, maybe 10%. But it applies to other extensions as well. Most sales are unreported and sometimes explicitly covered by NDAs. But there is no reason why nTLDs would be less reported than established extensions.
So why aren't we seeing more public, verifiable, reported sales ? I mean sales made by ordinary domainers, not registries.
Because there are more than 20 millions nTLDs registered right ? But not so many aftermarket sales in proportion. Strange isn't it.

Just because a reseller bought a nTLD for $$$$ doesn't mean it's a good investment and there is an end user at the end of the food chain.
Domainers always waste a lot of money on bad purchases across all extensions, especially .com. But the extension is not at fault here, it is their poor choice of domains.
Unfortunately we have often seen domains changing hands from one reseller to another, forever. Hypes, like chips in .ws or whatever, or emojis in extensions TLDs that domainers would normally not touch and for good reason. If there is no end user then it's the greater fool theory in action.

I admit to being biased, but not without reasons. I think the vast majority of new extensions are ridiculous, will never be relevant and will remain on life support forever like their siblings .mobi .tel .asia etc (aka zTLDs: zombie TLDs). Even if 0.1% of the inventory has market value I don't find it encouraging.
The worst is that some extensions could be and will be retired. Icann will not save you because they created this big mess, and there will be no bailout. They also refused to regulate new extensions like legacy extensions with price caps, leaving registrants open to abuse and unpredictable pricing from registries. You wonder why I am wary ?

 

[JB Lions]

Be gentle . I would say that unless it's a great two word combination that makes sense like UsedCars.Forsale for example, having two words in the sld of a new gtld domain makes it a very hard sale...even through outbound. If the full phrase without the dot is available in .com....then I would probably drop it. At least 10 extensions have to be taken for the full phrase for it to be a worthwhile ngtld investment imho. I'm not trying to bash your names @atinc because I'm also a new g investor, just trying to help you move in the right direction with your acquisitions. I'm sure you have some that are much better.

I think what you see on his site is it. I even told him there are some that are decent, in the sense they're in the right order and make sense. As an example - Jerusalem.Tours, Manhattan.Catering. 1 word . new gtld. In the right order. They make sense, both businesses you can make money with. But then you have the other names, again, ones I can hand reg. There is no way he's getting lots of offers. He says that a lot. So, I'm curious which ones are actually getting offers and how many offers. Let's say, this year.

 

[Jurgen Wolf]

In average I receive 1 inquiry per ~150 nTLDs... even below .info/.biz where conversion is ~1:100...

 

[Jurgen Wolf]

Just for comparison, with .PRO I have conversion ~1:30-1:40...

 

[atinc]

You know their price will go up based on what exactly? You said you're not a domainer. You've sold 0 domains in your life. The only person I know here who does sell them, is selling them on average for half of what he did last year.




Might be one of the more ridiculous things you've posted. Somebody again, that's never sold a domain in his life, is continually giving advice on investing in new gtlds. Now, that is absurd.




Now, you're demonstarting your lack of SEO knowledge. There are only About 127 results for that query. You should be on page 1. That's the example you're going with? Or did you not realize you can rank with any extension?

https://www.google.com/search?q=0445110642+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8



You bash on your first post, then get upset if you get it back.

What do you know about selling? I export goods on daily basis. I got customers in 5 continents and 67 countries.

Selling domains for $xx makes you pro? Come on...

You know nothing about selling and you don`t even know what an investment is.

I never questioned your sales or what so ever till know.

I don`t have time for $69 domain sales as you do. I don`t need fake sales reports to gain respect too.

You see my portfolio and assume they cost me $xx,xxx per year while it is only low $xxxx.

See, this is what investment is... You simply think they worth 10x more than their real value.

Yes, I haven`t sold any domains so far BUT you should know that I have created %95 of my portfolio in the past year.

I am an honest person, I don`t need to lie and report fake sales as many so-called pros does. I believe there are too many of them here but got no proof since you can`t prove anything which doesn`t exist. Do you think it is a hard thing to do, fake sales reports? This industry is growing with this type of speculations and hype continuously.

You asked me how do I know that new gTLD prices will go up and up. Answer is simple: I hear this $xx,xxx from you not from a new gTLD investor. Don`t come up with, hey you are new to this stuff, actually you are new to new gTLDs. I got $50,000 valuation for some of my new gTLD domains and this comes from nP members since 2011.

You are just another ignorant guy making claims about things you have no idea. You know nothing about new gTLDs besides the news you follow from new gTLD bashers.

What have you sold this year?

I never asked...

Can you open a thread and list all your sales in 2017? Providing all the domain names and the sale prices?

It is easy to just ask questions right? No, I don`t want you to pm this info privately. I want you to share them publicly so people can understand your real position in the domain industry.

We don`t have the same vision my friend, you are to beyond on that.

This is so pathetic. New gTLD haters come here and bash new gTLDs and promote only the extensions they are investing in.

@Kate invested in ccTLD`s and comes to every new gTLD thread and speculate. Than she always adds that ccTLDs are the second best thing after .com

@Jurgen Wolf heavily invested on .Pro and comments to each new gTLD thread as well, telling he has a huge portfolio but never give details. He likes each post from new gTLD bashers and promotes .Pro when ever he have chance to do so.

You @JB Lions always ask irrelevant questions than the original post and make it personal while you got no sales to be worth investigating.

It is same shit different day and same bashers for every new gTLD thread published on namePros...

I am open and honest with every personal questions I receive on this platform. Most of you already know my businesses , which is non of your business yet I am here explaining this to you all. Got nothing to hide and nothing to be shamed of. Most of you have a nick name on this platform, you see my name... That is my last name which I carry with honor.

That makes the difference between us!

I never asked this type of personal questions against you guys.. You know my budget, income, my businesseS and everything. Why? Cause you don`t have any better things to do in your life? Never owned a business or know what business management even means... But you dare to tell me about financial investments especially about new gTLDs where you have zero talent and zero investment.

BS