Are dashed domains undervalued by domainers?

[TheBaldOne]

In my 10+ years of domaining I have often been mystified by the 'perceived wisdoms' within the domaining community, some had partial truths behind them whilst others obviously were almost totally without foundation and relied solely on repeating it often enough (usually by one or more of the big names in the domaining community) that they became ingrained in domaining lore in much the same way as an an urban myth develops. Today I am going to take on one of these perceived wisdoms, the lack of value of any domain containing a dash or hyphen.

It is evident that all the top domain names are registered in the .com suffix whether they be 2 character domains right through to domains made up of two, three, or even four words. Indeed the top domains are registered in almost all TLD's and ccTLD's. Most of these domains are perceived to have a value greater than the annual registration fee of the domain, yet as soon as a dash (hyphen) is introduced to a domain name it is then considered by many domainers to become almost worthless if not worthless, and this to a great extent is due to someone who I admire as generally talking a great deal of sense about domains, Rick Schwartz.

I have read numerous blogs and posts by Rick Schwartz over the years and although I am not sure it was he who first came up with the phrase 'radio test' the one thing for sure is that his usage of it has made it almost domaining lore when valuing a domain name - and this of course applies to dashed domain names. (I should say here that I use the term 'dash' or 'dashed' in preference to 'hyphen' or 'hyphened' much the same way that people have adapted to using the term 'dot' instead of 'full stop'). The 'radio test' is how people who might HEAR the domain on radio or aurally through some other means understand the address name. The inclusion of a 'dash' in a domain has for years been seen as failing the so-called 'radio test'.

Now there are several things to point out in favour of dashed domains that are generally ignored by many domainers, but due to lack of space per post (and the fact any readers of this might not want to read more than the minimum) I shall just list them.

• Most people are introduced to a website either through search engines or through clicking links in articles or emails.
• Most businesses are small to medium businesses who cannot afford the top dollar premium domains that mainly large conglomerates buy but still want a descriptive domain/s for their business, this applies to businesses throughout the world including a growing number in the USA who are utilising dashed domains.
• Predictive addressing in the address bar means that when a user has visited a site the predictive address is supplied in the address bar, and this includes the 'dash' in the address (I vistit the Cel-Robox site and as soon as I start typing the address the predictive address comes up with Cel-robox.com).
• Owners of non-dashed domains should for defensive reasons alone acquire the dashed version, whilst competitors might want the dashed version to link through to their own site or launch a competing site (here I refer to non-TM domain names).
• In many instances a dashed .com domain name should (IMO) be worth at least the value of the undashed .net domain name.
• Multiple uses of single dashes such as with L-L-L.com or N-N-N.com are easily readable and memorable visually, so again these are valuable domains (perhaps seen by the current uptrend in registrations and snaps occuring). Again these will not be as valuable as a LLL.com or NNN.com but should I think be at least as valuable as the corresponding LLL.net or NNN.net.

Anyone want to make this a discussion?

 

[frank-germany]

a quick quide to dashed domains:

it all depends !

 

[Argentum]

For me most undervalued domains is N-N-N.com for that reason I purchased few already.

 

[wurdd]

1000 N-N-N.com
676 L-L.com
100 N-N.com
260 N-L.com
260 L-N.com
17576 L-L-L.com
----------------------
Best hyphen domain investments you'll find.

 

[gdndd]

TO me, I sold more "dashed" domains than any other regular domain ... !

I think, most of us are perfectionist ! But people don't know about this business ... To them, a domain with a dash or not is almost the same ... And most people don'T care...

 

[zibero]

TO me, I sold more "dashed" domains than any then regular domain ... !

Me too

 

[garptrader]

Hyphenated domains are used by developers who do not want to pay for an aftermarket domain. Now that there are hundreds of TLD alternatives hyphenated domains are generally going to be a waste of money as the idea is to sell them at a premium. That is probably not gong to happen. I do still have one hyphenated .COM domain in the same vertical as Victoria Secret.

 

[kgul]

Actually there are some logical ones like t-bone, t-dog, a-team, g-point, e-commerce, e-sports etc... with "e" everything seems suitable... by the way i got chip one t-hy is it 3 char or 4 char : ))

 

[Branded Domains]

electronic-school.com 1,350 USD 2016-01-06
l-y.com 3,851 USD 2016-01-05

 

[TheBaldOne]

Let me debunk quickly some things that have been said against the argument that dashed domains are currently undervalued by domainers.

- Trying to compare the number of sales between dashed and non-dashed domains has to take into account several factors including:

• The relative number of each registered (far fewer dashed domains are registered than non-dashed domains)
• The number of one word domains (there generally is no comparative dashed domains unless splitting the word by syllables or letters)
• The relative numbers of dashed and non-dashed domains being offered on the aftermarket

There are other considerations as well but these three points bluntly demonstrate that a direct comparrison in numbers being sold on the aftermarket is nonsensical as a point in this discussion.

- Trying to say that dashed domain names are only suited to certain national markets and that they should be in that national markets native language:

• This has already been shown to be a pointless argument by the number of English language dashed domains that have sold already on the aftermarket
• It should also be noted that many small - medium sized US businesses are using dashed domains for their sole internet address (check out especially L-L-L.com domain names here for developed US websites)
• This argument if taken literally would also mean that many NNN and LLL .com's have no or little value

Again there are other arguments which show this argument put forward is baseless.

- Now trying to demonstrate that a 2 or 3 word domain name can be easily read by capitalising the initial letter of each word is somehow supposed to prove that dashed domains have little or no value.

• Well, this is a difficult argument to take seriously for it may just as well can be said that if you type the domain name in font size 100 that the domain name will stand out or if you print each word in a different colour it can also be easily read - this cannot be argued against but then again it has absolutely no bearing on the question being debated.

- Now the really strange point raised stating that dashed domains are only used 'by developers' and are now worthless as there are 'NOW' hundreds of domain suffixes:

• Well I guess all those developed websites are 'under development' according to this point of view, but somehow I doubt that is the case.
• Generally developers do not develop live sites and I know of none that say 'hey, let's spend $10 buy a dashed domain name so we can develop the site on it and then drop it' (I can imagine many developers laughing their socks off at this suggestion).
• Can I point out there have been 100's of domain suffixes for over a decade, and also this point would mean that even non-dashed .com domains were now worthless because of exactly the same point.

As it is we now seem to be at a turning point for dashed domains, one that I think will revolutionise their value in an upward direction. Arguments against dashed domains being of value are clearly not standing up to scrutiny, this makes me think that whole swaithes of dashed domains will now be registered and start over the comming months to start appearing far more regularly in aftermarket sales reports.

Please note I am not saying that 'generally' the dashed .com domain is worth more than the non-dashed .com domain what I am hereby arguing is that in many many cases the dashed .com domain should be valued at least equivalent to the non-dashed .net domain.

 

[JudgeMind]

a quick quide to dashed domains:

it all depends !

I agree. I have sold a few hyphenated domains for a decent ROI. Not getting the $x,xxx sales but I tend to be able to get mid-high $xxx. Germans like dashes.

 

[ramkumaritrvs]

i don't like dashed domains but i got T-DE.com.

I thought T.de is better than T-DE.COM in seo but it's not.

 

[TheBaldOne]

I have yet to come across ANY reasonable attempt to try and show that a dashed .com is worth less generally than a non-dashed .net (or any other suffix). Of course there are exceptions to this rule, one being that I think the recent sale of USA.tv is actually worth more than USA-tv.com (but in this case I would argue that the value of USA.tv comes a lot from it being a conjoined hacked domain).

 

[briguy]

Because I own a few "dash/hyphen" domains kinda of biased!
I own a few just cause of the rarity like mentioned by

1000 N-N-N.com
676 L-L.com
100 N-N.com
260 N-L.com
260 L-N.com
17576 L-L-L.com
----------------------
Best hyphen domain investments you'll find.

I do own a "double hyphen" which is rarer..3--3 (dot) com think I just buy them cause of rarity
Also in my domain history, did own sports-car(dot)info ..lots of traffic to my parked page.
Today I can understand why
sports-car
sports car

also a helpful resource for me with 3 charater domains is
http://www.3character.com/price-guide.html

 

[Kate]

- Trying to compare the number of sales between dashed and non-dashed domains has to take into account several factors including:

• The relative number of each registered (far fewer dashed domains are registered than non-dashed domains)

I don't have any stats on that, but again why are there fewer dashed domains registered then if they are nearly as good ? That would mean the demand on the primary market is limited, hence the secondary market is logically limited as well.

I have yet to come across ANY reasonable attempt to try and show that a dashed .com is worth less generally than a non-dashed .net (or any other suffix).

Domain sales. They reflect the value bestowed by end users upon domain names.
How many big sales could you quote for hyphenated domains ? I mean sales above 4 figures.
From the top of my head: not so many. I remember only one 6-figure sale, I think it was hotel-reservation.

I am not saying hyphenated domains must be avoided at all costs. I'm just saying you are much less likely to sell any for big amounts, all things being equal. As a domainer I'd rather focus on where the demand is, unless I can get a truly exceptional combo at a great price. I would certainly register real-estate in a strong, relevant TLD. But I would pass most other hyphenated names. Even though some do make sense. That depends on the keywords.
What you are saying so far doesn't really chance my outlook. More sales data perhaps ?

 

[TheBaldOne]

I don't have any stats on that, but again why are there fewer dashed domains registered then if they are nearly as good ?

The simple answer is that domainers have avoided them as if they were plagued - which for a decade the 'big boys' of the industry have said they are. But also note that when all the singular word and number domain names there are that would make no sense unless splitting the words into syllables or even individual letters seperated by dashes.

Remember that there are ~ 300million .com domains registered.

Domain sales. They reflect the value bestowed by end users upon domain names.
How many big sales could you quote for hyphenated domains ? I mean sales above 4 figures.
From the top of my head: not so many. I remember only one 6-figure sale, I think it was hotel-reservation.

Might I suggest you read the other comments on this thread for that information about 'big' sales.

Also I would take you up on the point about 'big sales' being to end users - I think many are to other domainers.

I am not saying hyphenated domains must be avoided at all costs. I'm just saying you are much less likely to sell any for big amounts, all things being equal. As a domainer I'd rather focus on where the demand is, unless I can get a truly exceptional combo at a great price. I would certainly register real-estate in a strong, relevant TLD. But I would pass most other hyphenated names. Even though some do make sense. That depends on the keywords.

But are dashed domains a good investment because presently they are undervalued is what I am asking, indeed I am stating they are.

My argument is that a dashed domain in the .com is under valued by being valued at less than the un-dashed .net domain. A good rule of thumb is that generally the .net domain should garner a value of ~ 10% of the .com domain, I am therefore saying that the same valuation should generally be applied to the dashed .com domain.

The statistics will come as end users buy dashed domains from domainers, but at the moment because of the 'domaining lore' that has evolved through the likes of the 'big boys' and aftermarket venues like Sedo frowning on dashed domains the simple fact is that domainers do not own dashed domains in the same ball park range as non-dashed domains and therefore many end users end up registering their dashed domains
rather than buying them from domainers in the aftermarket.

 

[Fancy.domains]

My argument is that a dashed domain in the .com is under valued by being valued at less than the un-dashed .net domain. A good rule of thumb is that generally the .net domain should garner a value of ~ 10% of the .com domain, I am therefore saying that the same valuation should generally be applied to the dashed .com domain.

It sounds reasonable.

I like this thread, it gives me (and probably others) some new perspectives...

 

[Abdullah Abdullah]

I think they are undervalued specially if they are short. I have V-V.co and I think it is good. Many people dont like it a lot. It can create confusion if both the non dash/hyphen and the dashed/hypheneted are both developed. That,I think is the first reason people dont like it.

 

[frank-germany]

Germans like dashes.

.. it depends..

really its a little more complex.

but at least we don't "hate" them

 

[Kate]

Remember that there are ~ 300million .com domains registered.

Approx 120 million. 300 if you include all other TLDs.

But are dashed domains a good investment because presently they are undervalued is what I am asking, indeed I am stating they are.

They will be a good investment when we see more reported sales.
Take any regular sales report, DNJ or another and see for yourself how many hyphenated domains are featured. Yes, I'm sure there are more sales but that don't meet the reporting threshold. That means <2K or 1K.
And of course this is only the tip of the iceberg we're seeing. But it they are good investments like you say, we should see a lot more reported sales in proportion.

My argument is that a dashed domain in the .com is under valued by being valued at less than the un-dashed .net domain. A good rule of thumb is that generally the .net domain should garner a value of ~ 10% of the .com domain, I am therefore saying that the same valuation should generally be applied to the dashed .com domain.

This is exactly what I would call a rule devised by domainers. Or a myth like you put it.
The truth is, most .net domains simply don't have tangible resale value even where the .com equivalent has sold. So 10% of zero is still zero.
Likewise, the un-dashed domain selling doesn't mean that the dashed version will ever sell. Each sale is one of a kind and may not repeat itself...

 

[little_alan]

hyphen are extremely underrated.

Their SEO value for EMD's is the same as non Hyphened.

and how do people mostly find a wwebsite? google?

 

[TheBaldOne]

Approx 120 million. 300 if you include all other TLDs.

Sorry that should have read 300 million domains (not .com domains).

They will be a good investment when we see more reported sales.

So people should only invest when the sales are reported? Strange suggestion, does that mean that domainers should not invest in what is clearly demonstrable as an undervalued resource? In other words when we find the moon is made of cheese domainers should not register every .com of various types of cheese and moon or even mooncheese.com until somewhere along the line the sales of such are reported? So according to your proposed suggestion domainers should not 'register' domains at all but only buy on the aftermarket? The question is then who would have registered those domains to be sold on the aftermarket from whom according to your proposed practice domainers can then purchase them from?

Take any regular sales report, DNJ or another and see for yourself how many hyphenated domains are featured. Yes, I'm sure there are more sales but that don't meet the reporting threshold. That means <2K or 1K.

This supports my point that domainers are currently undervaluing the dashed domain names.

And of course this is only the tip of the iceberg we're seeing. But it they are good investments like you say, we should see a lot more reported sales in proportion.

Again this backs up my point that dashed domains have been classed as carrying the plague and it has become domaining lore that they are not worth investing in. This kind of argument you put forward is just trying to reinforce the negative rather than analyse the point being discussed.

The reply to my post saying "My argument is that a dashed domain in the .com is under valued by being valued at less than the un-dashed .net domain. A good rule of thumb is that generally the .net domain should garner a value of ~ 10% of the .com domain, I am therefore saying that the same valuation should generally be applied to the dashed .com domain."

This is exactly what I would call a rule devised by domainers. Or a myth like you put it.

It is not a hard and fast rule (as I point out) but just a rule of thumb, a guesstimate at best, but your attempt to undermine my post just belittles your arguments as I clearly state that this is not a rule. Though it does seem surprising that the best argument you can come up with is to say that this 'rule of thumb' is a myth and yet you do not say that about dashed domains being worthless.

The truth is, most .net domains simply don't have tangible resale value even where the .com equivalent has sold. So 10% of zero is still zero.

Here is where I think you lose the debate totally. Your point of view is that, and I quote, "The truth is, most .net domains simply don't have tangible resale value even where the .com equivalent has sold. So 10% of zero is still zero." Hmmm, so only .com's in general have a tangible value according to you - so the vast majority of all we domainers who invest in other suffixes are just throwing money at the wind. I am sure all us domainers who register domains in other suffixes are crying now that we register such domains and sell them regularly for profits of 100's or even 1,000's or 10,000's percentage profit.

Likewise, the un-dashed domain selling doesn't mean that the dashed version will ever sell. Each sale is one of a kind and may not repeat itself...

Agreed, but then again exactly the same can be said for any other .com domain selling. This final statement is absolutely pointless to the argument in general, it is just fluff trying to bulk out your disagreement that dashed domain names have any value.

 

[little_alan]

also in my opinion

electricians-dallas.com looks better than electriciansdallas.com

 

[JudgeMind]

Last hyphenated name I sold was in December on flippa.

Social-Reputation.com
$500

 

[Recons.Com]

I don't own many dash names, but end users do buy them often when they cannot get without dash or just because they like it that way. I see lots of small companies and large companies with hyphen in their domain. Of course, it might have something to do with the availability when they look up for a name and registrar suggestions.

One of the hyphenated names I like is e-gy.com, short for energy ))
also have Q-I.com.

 

[johname]

Looking at some sales data. This pops out (no pun intended) as a killer example of a hyphen domain

c-section dot com 15,000 USD 2015-02-08