discuss The bitcoin thread

[JudgeMind]

Updated: The Bitcoin crash is over...Here comes 2014!!


The rise and fall of the bitcoin.... The price of bitcoin is plummeting as i write this.

 

[urlurl]

careful if paypal gets wind of you using paypal to buy sell BTC they will shut your account down - keep in mind bitcoin could be a major competitor to PP

 

[Kenny]

I'm not sure why this thread is in Industry News, but here is a little side note:

Bitcoin’s skyrocketing value ushers in era of $1 million hacker heists
At least three Bitcoin exchanges report high-stakes robberies this month.

A company billing itself as one of Europe's biggest Bitcoin exchanges said it suffered a coordinated attack that succeeded in stealing almost $1 million worth of the digital currency, marking the latest in a string of high-stakes heists hitting companies that hold large sums online.

Kris Henriksen, CEO of Denmark-based Bitcoin Internet Payment Services (BIPS), made that claim last week in a Web post that said the attack began as a distributed denial-of-service (DDoS) attack. Two days later, Henriksen said, the same attackers targeted the BIPS network again and managed to use the damage they previously inflicted to somehow tamper with the channel that connects BIPS data storage systems to company servers.

"On November 15, BIPS was the target of a massive DDoS attack, which is now believed to have been the initial preparation for a subsequent attack on November 17 that overloaded our managed switches and disconnected the iSCSI connection to the SAN on BIPS servers," the CEO wrote. "Regrettably, despite several layers of protection, the attack caused vulnerability to the system, which has then enabled the attacker/s to gain access and compromise several wallets."


http://arstechnica.com/security/201...lue-ushers-in-era-of-1-million-hacker-heists/

Feeling safe?

Peace,
Cy

 

[PlusNames]

My brother invested $9k or so and has more than doubled it by now

 

[accent]

There is a arms race between code writers and hackers. Hackers improve with time, can Bitcoin software evolve? Perhaps it can, but I don't see how.

Regardless, the US Government will hack it to pieces once their friends the banksters think it is a problem.

 

[urlurl]

There is a arms race between code writers and hackers. Hackers improve with time, can Bitcoin software evolve? Perhaps it can, but I don't see how.

Regardless, the US Government will hack it to pieces once their friends the banksters think it is a problem.

that's what worries me the most - hackers and the system itself. there is no back up system if something fails or if names are lost/stolen.

this is still a day traders dream.

actually, 85% of transactions these days are done by speculators.

You have to ask your self;

Q: Who would be using bitcoins to buy things.
A: those who owned bitcoins before they took off in the market... it's just free money for them. Why would someone bother to transfer cash into bitcoins to buy something using bitcoins - why not just use cash.

Q: Who would only transfer cash into bitcoin.
A: Speculators, and people looking to hide money.

Q: Who would except and cash out of bitcoins.
A: Any retailer, this is a new source of money (and customers) that did not exist before. But from what I have read as soon as the retailers get BTC, they transfer them back into cash. the market is way to volatile for any retailer to take a chance of leaving the proceeds as BTC
A: original BTC holders, its free money now

The only thing keeping this currency afloat are the speculators, as I can not see any other reason to buy Bitcoins.

 

[Theo Goodman]

There is a arms race between code writers and hackers. Hackers improve with time, can Bitcoin software evolve? Perhaps it can, but I don't see how.

Regardless, the US Government will hack it to pieces once their friends the banksters think it is a problem.

The bitcoin protocall has already evoloved many times. Since I am not good at programing I cant really explain it to you in detail. If you want I can find a link that explains it better than I can. Software can always evolve and has a lot. There are lots of new software and hardware to help you secure your coins and your transactions.

What do you mean "hack to pieces" the goverment has a bitcoin wallet with hundreds of millions of dollars in bitcoin on it. They have not been able to crack it, to control the coins. They have the device or peice of paper that they are stored on, but no control, they can not use them. This has been the biggest test so far, imo.

that's what worries me the most - hackers and the system itself.

What do you mean exactly? Anywhere that there is any kind of money there are people trying to steal it, that is by no means exclusive to bitcoin. Think of all of the fraud going on with Online Banking and Paypal, involving................HACKERS.

there is no back up system if something fails or if names are lost/stolen.

There are no names in the system only sets of numbers and letters. Yes you can lose bitcoin if you do not take care of it. Yes you can have bitcoin stolen , it is kind of like having cash stolen, it is gone.

actually, 85% of transactions these days are done by speculators.

Where did you get this info? This is interesting if true. In my experince most people just "buy and hold" are are not day traders. ATM new adaptors from China are fueling the price increase.

Q: Who would be using bitcoins to buy things.
A: those who owned bitcoins before they took off in the market... it's just free money for them. Why would someone bother to transfer cash into bitcoins to buy something using bitcoins - why not just use cash.

you can not use cash online

Well it could be for one or more of these reasons, just off the top of my head:

1.very low transfer fees compared to western union or paypal
2. not wanting to support the fiat money system.
3. trying to avoid the NSA et all from collecting info about you for whatever reason.
4. People traveling internationaly that do not want to carry cash on them when crossing boarders.
6. People in countries where the currency is total s*it and has high inflation and or where the goverment can print money at will and destroy the value of what you earn.
7. Anyone that the bank or paypal has refused to give an account to for finaical, political or other reasons

Q: Who would only transfer cash into bitcoin.
A: Speculators, and people looking to hide money.

People that do not want to have their money taken from them like what happened in Cyprus, so yea technicaly that is "hiding" money.

Q: Who would except and cash out of bitcoins.
A: Any retailer, this is a new source of money (and customers) that did not exist before. But from what I have read as soon as the retailers get BTC, they transfer them back into cash. the market is way to volatile for any retailer to take a chance of leaving the proceeds as BTC
A: original BTC holders, its free money now

A: anyone that has BTC and wants cash. Yes, some retailers cash out right away, but not all.

The only thing keeping this currency afloat are the speculators, as I can not see any other reason to buy Bitcoins.

Well yea if you call anyone that buys bitcoin a speculator then you are right. I have named a few reasons above. It is a better investment than putting money under your bed or investing in the stock market, imho.

 

[JudgeMind]

Best returns on investing for Bitcoin come from investing in stock, imo

 

[Theo Goodman]

Best returns on investing for Bitcoin come from investing in stock, imo

Hi,
What are you talking about exactly? What stock? Do you mean a CFD? That is not a stock. You can buy stocks in some crypto coin companies but they are very risky. Some are listed here http://cryptostocks.com

 

[urlurl]

@ The_Goodman

im not totally trashing bitcoin, I am playing devils advocate as a secondary point of view - you do have to look at all parameter's before u jump in

the 85% was from an article I was reading a few days ago. hopefully I can find it again and I will post the link.

"Well it could be for one or more of these reasons, just off the top of my head:

1.very low transfer fees compared to western union or paypal
2. not wanting to support the fiat money system.
3. trying to avoid the NSA et all from collecting info about you for whatever reason.
4. People traveling internationally that do not want to carry cash on them when crossing boarders.
6. People in countries where the currency is total s*it and has high inflation and or where the government can print money at will and destroy the value of what you earn.
7. Anyone that the bank or paypal has refused to give an account to for financial, political or other reasons"



1 - low to nil transfees, but the exchange to transfer back to cash or the fluctuation in price may not offset regular wire fee's
2 - the true rebel - fight the power!
3 - most likely money launderers are terrorists
4 - that may help for people getting money of a country - most likely a one time shot
5 - there was no #5
6 - that is a valid point, it does protect against inflation (assuming it keeps its value)
7 - there might be a good reason they can't have an account, ????

its only a good investment if it keeps going up. keep in mind for every winner there is a looser.

 

[Theo Goodman]

"1 - low to nil transfees, but the exchange to transfer back to cash or the fluctuation in price may not offset regular wire fee's"

No, even at an exchange website you are paying 0.2-0.5% - Bitcoin is designed to be used without exchanges, person to person- no fees. ATM the price does fluctuate lets see what happens in the future.

3 - most likely money launderers are terrorists

This is the worst argument I have ever heard in my life. NSA aside, the comerical use of your personal data is something you should protect, you could trust online banking,paypal ect with that info, its your choice. Your argument is basicly that anyone that is not "digitaly naked" must be a terrorist.

4 - that may help for people getting money of a country - most likely a one time shot

No, anyone that travels a lot can avoid paying exchange fees when they exchange dollar to yen to rupee to yuan to euro by using bitcoin, simply meet someone localy and get local currency, that has 0% to do with a "one time shot".

7 - there might be a good reason they can't have an account, ????

Um, no. Many people not in the USA or EU have a big problem to get a bank account. Even in the EU and the USA is it becoming harder to get a bank account, these people are then blocked from particpating in the economy to a degree. Notice that I did not say that the bank will not give them credit , just an account.

its only a good investment if it keeps going up. keep in mind for every winner there is a looser.

Nobody is claiming anything that would discount this.
I said if you compare it to investing in the stock market then you are better off with bitcoin, and that is my subjective opinion.

the NSA censored number 5

 

[Kenny]

the NSA censored number 5

Peace,
Cy

 

[Theo Goodman]

good time to buy atm

 

[urlurl]

whats with the big sell off today?

 

[accent]

Quote: The bitcoin protocall has already evoloved many times. Since I am not good at programing I cant really explain it to you in detail. If you want I can find a link that explains it better than I can. Software can always evolve and has a lot. There are lots of new software and hardware to help you secure your coins and your transactions.

What do you mean "hack to pieces" the goverment has a bitcoin wallet with hundreds of millions of dollars in bitcoin on it. They have not been able to crack it, to control the coins. They have the device or peice of paper that they are stored on, but no control, they can not use them. This has been the biggest test so far, imo."

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I don't see how a code can evolve without the potential of someone slipping in a back door. Think what the internet will be in 20 years - my two year old computer is already partially obsolete and non-functioning.

Remember Stuxnet, the computer worm that attacked Iran's nuclear program? It was obvious that it was a product of the US and Israeli governments because its' sophistication was orders of magnitude beyond what any hackers could do. The NSA has huge resources. Indeed the banksters could decide to kill it themselves, secretly.

Any code can be broken, given enough time and money. That is a truism in espionage.

 

[urlurl]

@theo

I couldn't find that article about the 85% of transactions are done by speculators. but, I did find this latest article indicating 90% of bitcoin buyers are speculators.

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-good-bad-ugly-153000452.html

---------- Post added at 11:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 PM ----------

I found the reason for the sell off today - new ban by china

Bitcoin Is Crumbling In China On Unconfirmed Reports Of A New Central Bank Ban

http://bitcoinnewstoday.com/bitcoin...nconfirmed-reports-of-a-new-central-bank-ban/

 

[Theo Goodman]

I found the reason for the sell off today - new ban by china

Bitcoin Is Crumbling In China On Unconfirmed Reports Of A New Central Bank Ban

Hi,
Bitcoin is NOT banned in China. Howeer ATM the goverment said that banks can not forward money to exchanges, same for 3rd parties like okpay. It does make it harder to get money to an exchange, but Bitcoin is not banned, you can trade bitcoin 100% legal, and merchants can accept it. That´s it. Yes the market is totaly bonkers but really did you expect anything else?

estimates that the majority of Bitcoin buyers -- as high as 90 percent -- are investors, rather than people who intend to use it as currency to buy and sell things.

First off there is zero data to show how they came up with this "estimate". Secondly the more merchants that accept bitcoin the more will be spent, I wonder if this is pre-black friday. http://www.coindesk.com/bitpay-sales-bitcoin-black-friday/
Basicly we have gone from "day trader" to "speculator" to "investor". In the first post you claimed 85% to be "day traders" this is clearly untrue, I would love to be able to figure out how to caculate this number but lack the time. "Speculator" well yea anyone that bought bitcoin wants it to go up, so they would qualifiy as a speculator, then put that number at 100% , "investor" yes also put that number back to 100% if I own dollars then I have an -interest- that its value goes up, same for bitcoin. This topic is more related to the "Currency vs. Asset" discussion. If Bitcoin is more of a "currency" or an "asset" or both. (for detractors none of the above )

I don't see how a code can evolve without the potential of someone slipping in a back door. Think what the internet will be in 20 years - my two year old computer is already partially obsolete and non-functioning.

Frist of all the bitcoin protocall is 100% open source, so please go and make up your own mind. I dont think the code itself "evolved" but rather the network. There are some standards like "forks" that the network needs to agree on, its kind of hard to explain but it is possible. What can happen is that one part of the network does math problem A but for some reason another part math problem B, then in theory there could be a "fork" - 2 block chains, not one, again this is a real simple way to explain this and there are others that can explain it better, if you are real interested I can hunt down some more info. You can also use the block chain for other purposes, check out "colored coins" and "bits of prroof" this is also an "evolution" of sorts.

Software that is used is seperate from the network, that is sofware just like any other. It is of course evolving.

Remember Stuxnet, the computer worm that attacked Iran's nuclear program? It was obvious that it was a product of the US and Israeli governments because its' sophistication was orders of magnitude beyond what any hackers could do. The NSA has huge resources. Indeed the banksters could decide to kill it themselves, secretly.

Stuxnet was not open source and did not try to attack a world wide decentral network.

The argument is akin to "Remember that bank that had online banking? It was hacked. Online banking is unsafe and people can put viruses in it, just like Stuxnet."


-edit- here are some examples of "changes"

http://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2013-03-11-chain-fork
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2046182/bitcoin-upgrade-aims-for-smoother-ecommerce.html

Any code can be broken, given enough time and money. That is a truism in espionage.

Nobody is claiming otherwise, how can you? Since this is true then you should trust 0 ZERO banks, since anyone could just break there codes and get their money. Its just a matter of time....

 

[accent]

Your response re: code evolution is way beyond me. If this thing becomes normal business I guess I'd try to understand it. At this point my head hurts.

The bank thing I can answer. If a bank is hacked, and they survive, they still pay me my money. If the bank dies, in the USA, the government pays up to $250000 or thereabouts. If the dollar fails, well ... the term is SOL, but a lot of other assumptions would be crashing down at the same time.

My point about stuxnet is that there are levels of power that have not yet been focused on this. If the banksters decide that bitcoin is a problem then they will try to kill it, above or below the table.

In this corner the brilliant work of an unknown code writer. In the other corner the profits of the banks and the tax revenues of governments. Bets, anyone?

 

[JudgeMind]

What are your thoughts on bitcoin bouncing back? When or will we see a bounce back to $1250 or higher? Good time to invest, or stay clear...

 

[Theo Goodman]

The bank thing I can answer. If a bank is hacked, and they survive, they still pay me my money. If the bank dies, in the USA, the government pays up to $250000 or thereabouts. If the dollar fails, well ... the term is SOL, but a lot of other assumptions would be crashing down at the same time.

Yes most banks are insured by the federal goverment. That is true, however your personal information will be gone if hacked depending on who,what,how that could be worse than the money being gone.


If you are afraid of losing your coins, dont store them online. Read about "cold storage", computers not connected to the net and or storage in paper form.

n this corner the brilliant work of an unknown code writer. In the other corner the profits of the banks and the tax revenues of governments. Bets, anyone?

No,
In this corner a network with a computing power of 64 exaFLOPS - 256 times faster than the top 500 super computers spread out all over the world decentraly and spreading like a virus.Bitcoin is neutral, it is not inherently pro or contra goverments and their revenues.

What are your thoughts on bitcoin bouncing back? When or will we see a bounce back to $1250 or higher? Good time to invest, or stay clear...

Looking at the chart I see resistance at 512$ which was the post Silk Road price. This has been supported more than one time in the past. The price needs to break out of 575$ as a day close to go bearish and I have to check again what could be a sensable bullish breakout price. I see two possilbities , buy now , or put a limit order in the 550$ or 525$ range if you are bearish. It could get filled over the next days during a dip. Again only my opinion do your own research and dont bet the house on what I say.

 

[urlurl]

interesting article about JP Morgan Chase

if you can't beat them, join them... looks like they are looking at building their own online payment structure.

http://rt.com/business/bitcoin-jpmorgan-internet-cash-116/

 

[Theo Goodman]

yes its an online payment structure. It is centralised and connected to your bank account, nothing like bitcoin

 

[urlurl]

yes but it fills in the gaps the regular system currently doesn't have. the only thing it woun't do is give you 100% anonymity

pushing funds to an account (so there are no charge backs)
account to account with a centralised system to track (avoids stealing and fraud)
very little transaction fee's

 

[iowadawg]

Would you trust JP Morgan with your money, you transactions, etc?
They are doing this, not for us, but for themselves!
They are looking, just like they did prior to the real estate bubble burst, at the fees they can make from start to finish.
They will set the prices and thus you could be wiped out just like that, just because JP Morgan wants more money!

 

[gemstar]

Looks like were back in the early 1990's when people said domains were worthless.That they have no long term use,Then came the domain hacks,then came the bubble,the bust and then people like Frank Schilling and such making a fortune hoarding domains as they had foresight when others disregarded and went on to their usual business while the few made millions..Not until major business saw the potential to harvest domains for industry use did everyone then jump on the band wagon..Boy would we love to go back in time eh?
Yet we sit and wonder how could we miss such an opportunity? Well because such opportunities are so obvious we totally miss them..
Bitcoin is such an opportunity..Internet changed the world..Yet old school economics still drag failing to catch up..This is where the "Wild West is back" It will take some time to regulate but in the end 10 years from now others will say the same thing about crypto currency as we are about the domain game.:tu:

 

[urlurl]

I agree the cryptocurrency is here to stay - just not 100% sure it will be bitcoins.