Pool.com took my money and left, pls. help!

[saint]

Hi fellow NPers,

If anyone can help with the following predicament, I would greatly appreciate it.

Recently, I acquired a .ca domain from a Pool backorder. In my account, I have a default registrant info. that is an alternate for the sake of privacy; shows a Chicago address.

Pool emailed me and explained that in order to expediate the process of ownership transfer, I should change it to my real info. and check out CIRA's (Canadian Internet Registration Authority) webpage.

No problem. So I checked out CIRA's site, but then I realized there was a conflict that I wasn't made aware of -- the owner of a .ca domain had to RESIDE in Canada. I am not Canadian. I am a U.S. citizen. This jeopardized my future with the ownership of the domain.

So, I decided that the best thing to do was to send them an email explaining my situation and ask that they kindly refund my money and offer it up for auction to another individual more qualified in owning a Canadian domain. Seems like the proper thing to do.

I was promptly refused. In fact, not only was I refused, the response was that the domain was NOT awarded to me AND I will not get refunded.

I have no legal background and would appreciate the opinions of those who are in the field on this topic. In particular, I feel the strong point is:

* Anyone who has an account with Pool can freely backorder ANY domain with them, but Pool takes no measure to NOTIFY the individual that his or her backorder (in the case of ccTLDs) had to abide by certain guidelines of the country. Why offer the ability to "own" this domain if Pool doesn't even have the ability to confer 100% ownership unless certain clauses are met by the individual? Furthermore, why isn't this brought up anywhere when you backorder the name? (The credit card on account with them is a U.S. Visa. If they are really interested in taking measures to protecting the general welfare of their customers, something as simple as cross-checking my address with the conditions of registering a particular ccTLD could be done).

e.g., If Best Buy offered a quasi-legal product for purchase and I bought the product unbeknownst of its quasi-legal status, and Best Buy did NOT let me know of the conditions for legally purchasing and owning the product, shouldn't I have legal recourse against the retailer for not providing any conspicuous warning that the product was illegal (for me) to purchase?

These are just my thoughts. However, I feel tremendously cheated out of this situation by a greedy company who is willing to "offer" any and everyone a "free" backorder without providing or perhaps even withholding crucial information about the legality surrounding its various ccTLD backorders just to make more money.

BOTTOMLINE: If Pool is offering a service as a company, then it needs to stand behind its ability to confer ownership onto the new registrant. If conferring ownership of certain ccTLDs are NOT within their control, then they need to LET INDIVIDUALS BACKORDERING SUCH DOMAINS KNOW OF THIS DEFICIENCY.

If you read this far, I thank you for your time! Any suggestions or comments as to what you think of the situation or what I course of action I should take next would be tremendously helpful. I have a few thoughts, but I figured I'll let everyone on the board know how Pool treats its customers; hope you won't have to deal with this pathetic company as I have had to.

Best Regards,

Bill

 

[vip-ip]

Call them with the receipt # you got when ordered. Shout at them, scare them with a lawsuite. Should work.

 

[VG_KING]

Yeah I paid by money order for my account there and they updated their system, and they tried to not give my account money...I had to e-mail them and b*tch TOO much to get my own money back into my account..

 

[primacomputer]

I don't care what you “agreed” to, signed, clicked, whatever. I can't imagine them having a leg to stand on. I'd contact the Visa dispute centre and CC pool. It is their negligence in failing to tell you of the problem before taking your cash that caused this.

 

[nomis135]

Best option is to scare them with lawsuits as vip-ip noticed.

 

[painperdu]

Can you find a Canadian to claim the name on your behalf?

How can they outright tell you that you were not awarded the name but they will keep the money as if you were? They should either put the name aside till something is figured out or refund your money.

I think you're right about the Best Buy analogy; they can't sell you something that you can't legally buy.

 

[suthra]

They are firm like a tree with Useless customer support.

 

[wisconsin]

That's too bad they could not help you resolve this matter and show some good customer service!

All pool.com is after is money! Customer satisfaction and trying to keep you coming back is not their priority! Try poolsucks.com

 

[hotirish]

I hate Pool, but I think in this case "legally" they are half-correct.

As the customer it is up to you to find out if you qualify for the domain or not, maybe you can argue that Pool didn't disclose that information, but I'm sure it has somewhere in it's fine print.

Was is dubious though is the fact they took the domain from you. I would say that it should be whatever organisation that administers the CA suffix that should revoke it, not Pool.

Of course nothing surprises me with Pool, because they are nothing but crooks (and yes, I can back up that claim).

 

[Dave_Z]

Check their legal fine prints.

As you just discovered to your dismay, Saint, .ca domains can only be gotten
by those who reside in Canada. At the very least, they must have a canadian
address.

Same thing with .us domains or any other country code extension: you must
have a valid territory-based address. One exception, I think, is .in (Indian).

Pool definitely should've posted that beforehand, although they'll probably say
something like "it's the user's responsibility to perform due diligence before
proceeding" in their legal agreement. Just check it out.

But if you feel you have something, then be darn prepared to prove and
defend it.

 

[jberryhill]

Hotirish nailed this one IMHO.

I think you're right about the Best Buy analogy; they can't sell you something that you can't legally buy.

Sure they can. I can walk into any electronics store and buy amateur radio equipment. If I go home, turn it on, and use it without an FCC license, then I am going to be in deep doo-doo.

Actually, the Best Buy scenario has an exact analogy - Quite a few Canadians come into the United States and buy DirecTV systems. Since the broadcast content is not licensed in Canada, these Canadians either subscribe through a proxy US address, or they modify the system to operate in Canada. Both arrangements are illegal, and Best Buy stores in border states happily sell these things to people they probably know are Canadians. If those Canadians are cut off by DirecTV, they can't go back to Best Buy and demand a refund.

I realized there was a conflict that I wasn't made aware of -- the owner of a .ca domain had to RESIDE in Canada

That's fundamental to .ca domains. If you don't know what you are bidding on, don't bid on it. It's like buying a car and saying, "I didn't know it needed gasoline to run." It is precisely this "I wasn't made aware of" basic facts attitude that requires anyone who wants to sell things to hire lawyers to write things like "caution - sharp object" on kitchen knives.

The residence requirement for .ca domains is not some obscure little-known piece of arcane wisdom. I would assume that anyone bidding on a .ca domain knows what a .ca domain is. But that's just me, I suppose.

If Pool is offering a service as a company, then it needs to stand behind its ability to confer ownership onto the new registrant.

I think you and everyone else here is missing a very important point from Pool's perspective. Pool can't "re-run" an auction, and they can't go to the second-highest bidder and say, "We had a problem with the auction winner, so we'll take your bid now." If you were that second bidder, tell me that you wouldn't believe it was a scam.

When you participate in an auction against other bidders, and you win, then in fairness to the other bidders you can't expect to get your money back because you didn't know what you were bidding on. Pool didn't do anything wrong, and Cira didn't do anything wrong, but what you did here was to deny the highest-bidding qualified bidder to win the auction.

Here's an exercise - Pretend that all of the other bidders in that auction are informed about your refund, and you are asked to explain to them why they got jerked around by your ignorance. What would you say to them?

 

[mastodont]

I was scammed by Pool.com 4 months ago. Avoid them!!!

 

[saint]

Hi John,

Thank you for your time and honest replies. I truly appreciate your (along with everyone else who posted) thoughts on this matter.

That's fundamental to .ca domains. If you don't know what you are bidding on, don't bid on it. It's like buying a car and saying, "I didn't know it needed gasoline to run." It is precisely this "I wasn't made aware of" basic facts attitude that requires anyone who wants to sell things to hire lawyers to write things like "caution - sharp object" on kitchen knives.

The residence requirement for .ca domains is not some obscure little-known piece of arcane wisdom. I would assume that anyone bidding on a .ca domain knows what a .ca domain is. But that's just me, I suppose.

But the issue here is slightly more complex than that. There are many ccTLDs which doesn't require state citizenship or presence for registration (.cn, .de, .co.uk, .nu, in, .to, .vg, .tc, .ms, etc.). While certainly not arcane knowledge, I _was_ under the impression (simply because Pool made it so easy for anyone with an account to backorder _anything_) that it was open for registration since every closed-country registration (those limited to only state citizens) that I've had experience with required some sort of paper trail that I had to fill out in order to verify my citizenship or residence within that country.

The car buying analogy has its merits, but I am not sure how it pertains to this case. My understanding would be that a "car" is to a domain, and "gas" is analogous to the registration conditions and annual renewal fees that is necessary to keep the "car" running. In that respect, I am aware of how the acquisition and maintenance of a domain works. In Pool's case, they provided me with the ability to bid and ultimately purchase this car, without explicitly letting me know that, "oh and by the way, this car requires a special type of gas which can only be found and used in this location." So the question is, was it reasonably expected that I would know of this "special gas" if my expectations for when I walk into a car dealership is such that all of the vehicles I will be buying, based on my prior experience, will be using regular gas? Afterall, I expect "regular gas" when I go and register a .co.uk domain, .cn, .de, and many of the other ccTLDs. And for the ones that do require citizenship, a paper trail almost always accompany the registration as proof of residency.

I think this segues into an interesting point. In an email sent by Pool, I was told the following:

-snip-
Question Reference #050310-000063
-----------------------------------
Response (Jamie H.) - 03/10/2005 01:24 PM

If you already have an account with CIRA, the .ca registry, please
respond and provide the CIRA registrant number for that account and we can
instead use that. If you do not know what your CIRA registrant account
number is, login to your CIRA account and it should tell you near the
top of the page.
-snip-

Wait a second. Pool has the capability to automatically check my CIRA registrant number and apply it to the ownership of any of my .ca backorders? OK, if Pool has this capability, then lets backtrack and consider why Pool does not:

1. request that I supply my CIRA registrant number (before or during the backorder) and integrate it into their system to check if I qualify
2. provide an adequate "heads-up" about the CIRA regulations prior to or concurrently with my backorder.

I am at a loss for words. If such a simple safeguard such as the above were in place, I wouldn't even be here.

I think you and everyone else here is missing a very important point from Pool's perspective. Pool can't "re-run" an auction, and they can't go to the second-highest bidder and say, "We had a problem with the auction winner, so we'll take your bid now." If you were that second bidder, tell me that you wouldn't believe it was a scam.

When you participate in an auction against other bidders, and you win, then in fairness to the other bidders you can't expect to get your money back because you didn't know what you were bidding on. Pool didn't do anything wrong, and Cira didn't do anything wrong, but what you did here was to deny the highest-bidding qualified bidder to win the auction.

If this was an item that I bid on and Pool provided me with all of the conditions associated with owning the domain, I would not have bid in the first place.

Here's an exercise - Pretend that all of the other bidders in that auction are informed about your refund, and you are asked to explain to them why they got jerked around by your ignorance. What would you say to them?

I am not sure - was I ignorant in this case? IMHO, I don't believe so, but I've laid out the story to the best of my ability, so a 3rd party would probably be a better judge.

 

[Dave_Z]

While certainly not arcane knowledge, I _was_ under the impression (simply because Pool made it so easy for anyone with an account to backorder _anything_) that it was open for registration since every closed-country registration (those limited to only state citizens) that I've had experience with required some sort of paper trail that I had to fill out in order to verify my citizenship or residence within that country.

You're not alone.

So the question is, was it reasonably expected that I would know of this "special gas" if my expectations for when I walk into a car dealership is such that all of the vehicles I will be buying, based on my prior experience, will be using regular gas? Afterall, I expect "regular gas" when I go and register a .co.uk domain, .cn, .de, and many of the other ccTLDs. And for the ones that do require citizenship, a paper trail almost always accompany the registration as proof of residency.

Just like getting practically any item, you're expected by the seller or provider
of the product or service to know what you're doing.

Unfortunately some people don't until it's too late. And it's worse if they lay
blame on everyone else except themselves.

Wait a second. Pool has the capability to automatically check my CIRA registrant number and apply it to the ownership of any of my .ca backorders? OK, if Pool has this capability, then lets backtrack and consider why Pool does not:

1. request that I supply my CIRA registrant number (before or during the backorder) and integrate it into their system to check if I qualify
2. provide an adequate "heads-up" about the CIRA regulations prior to or concurrently with my backorder.

I am at a loss for words. If such a simple safeguard such as the above were in place, I wouldn't even be here.

If this was an item that I bid on and Pool provided me with all of the conditions associated with owning the domain, I would not have bid in the first place.

Again, those are items Pool expected you to know. If it'll make you feel any
better, why not post your feedback to them about this?

Of course, it's no guarantee Pool or any company will do what you say. That's
up to them, and you've already done your part.

I am not sure - was I ignorant in this case? IMHO, I don't believe so, but I've laid out the story to the best of my ability, so a 3rd party would probably be a better judge.

You bet. But hey, you learn something new every day.

It is precisely this "I wasn't made aware of" basic facts attitude that requires anyone who wants to sell things to hire lawyers to write things like "caution - sharp object" on kitchen knives.

That's one reason why those providers have legal agreements (and not just
because the FTC tells them too). In this lawsuit-happy society we're living in,
there are times it pays to legally cover your behind, especially from people
who don't know any better but refuse to take responsibility for their mistakes.

Some people will say "The customer is always right!" or "I don't care about
their damn policies. I care only about how I feel". While it's reasonable to help
them out, nobody's a superman or a superwoman, so a line must be drawn.

Egad, I guess I'm digressing...

Bottom line: do your homework as much as you can beforehand. Read their
legal fine prints, ask questions, etc.

Better yet, don't hesitate to ask even the dumbest questions at places like
this. You'll see how friendly many people here are.

 

[jberryhill]

How about this one:

I just bought an airline ticket to Argentina to attend the ICANN meeting. I also just realized my passport is expired, and I'm going to have to try expedited renewal.

Now, if I can't get my passport renewed and have to cancel the trip, should I get a refund on my airline ticket, since they didn't tell me to check my passport first?

Or take the situation where a country requires a Visa. You can go over to Expedia.com and buy airline tickets to almost anywhere. They don't check to see whether you have a valid visa or are able to get one, and I doubt they provide a flashing red banner warning that you'll need one. It is probably a safe assumption that the burden of knowing whether you can travel to destination XYZ is on the person purchasing the ticket to XYZ.

was I ignorant in this case?

By "ignorant" I merely mean unaware of the registration conditions for a .ca name.

Folks sometimes complain about US-centrism in business transactions on the internet. For example, address fields on forms will generally assume a US-format postal address. However....

I _was_ under the impression (simply because Pool made it so easy for anyone with an account to backorder _anything_) that it was open for registration since every closed-country registration (those limited to only state citizens) that I've had experience with required some sort of paper trail that I had to fill out in order to verify my citizenship or residence within that country.

Pool.com is a Canadian company doing business in Canada. Why shouldn't a .ca domain be "normal" to them?

Opinions may differ, but I believe we both understand the point which is "whose responsibility is it to check whether a bidder is qualified to purchase the thing being auctioned".

There are a lot of examples of that kind of thing... On a trip to Grand Cayman once, I picked up a couple of cartons of cigarettes at the duty-free shop on my way out of the US. It turned out that I had bought more than you can legally take with you into Cayman. Well, gee, the folks at the duty-free shop at the Charlotte airport knew that I was going to Cayman... why did they sell me that many cartons if I couldn't take them into my destination?

So, I had to dump a lot of cigarettes at the airport, but I didn't once think it was the duty-free shop's responsibility to tell me about that.

When you deal with a lot of customers, it can be pretty amazing what some people don't know. And if you get into the business of telling them one thing you should know, then you'll be even worse off when you have the customer that didn't know some other thing they should have known.

 

[Dave_Z]

So, I had to dump a lot of cigarettes at the airport, but I didn't once think it was the duty-free shop's responsibility to tell me about that.

Damn, all those cigarettes gone to waste.

 

[-db-]

I think jberryhill is legally and technically correct about this.

However, I also think it raises a valid concern, and POOL should consider putting some type of warning / statement reminding people (or informing those who never knew) that certain extensions have tighter restrictions than others. After all, they don't want customers to be unhappy or feel cheated. That's not good for business. That's not good for anybody.

Try talking to them, explain the situation and the confusion. You probably won't get your money back, but you might help to prevent the same thing from happening to other people.

Good luck!

 

[jberryhill]

I think jberryhill is legally and technically correct about this.

There's a fair amount of room for differing opinions here, and I'm not sure there is a "correct". However, one might review Pool's terms of service.

The thing that bothers me, though, is unlike other analogies, Pool in this situation has the domain back, and they are going to cash in on our correspondent's mistake.

Even though Pool can't "re-run" the original auction, their expectation, after the first auction, was to be paid the amount of the high bid from that auction. So, if they resell it for less, then it would seem fair to refund what they get from the second auction, up to at least what the original purchase price was. That's not a legal rule, but what strikes me as "fair".

 

[primacomputer]

Hotirish nailed this one IMHO.
Sure they can. I can walk into any electronics store and buy amateur radio equipment. If I go home, turn it on, and use it without an FCC license, then I am going to be in deep doo-doo.

I think you and everyone else here is missing a very important point from Pool's perspective. Pool can't "re-run" an auction, and they can't go to the second-highest bidder and say, "We had a problem with the auction winner, so we'll take your bid now." If you were that second bidder, tell me that you wouldn't believe it was a scam.

Do you propose they are stuck with it and can never sell it? Sure they can give it to the second highest bidder. I buy stuff at auction all the time and I've won plenty of things because the highest bidder flaked. I absolutly do not feel scammed that I picked up an A3 colour laser printer with $2,500 of consumables for $1,100. I would not feel scammed if I won a domain name for $100 that someone else was willing to buy for $110. I'd bundel it with a candian proxy service and offer it to him for $150

When you participate in an auction against other bidders, and you win, then in fairness to the other bidders you can't expect to get your money back because you didn't know what you were bidding on. Pool didn't do anything wrong, and Cira didn't do anything wrong, but what you did here was to deny the highest-bidding qualified bidder to win the auction.

Most auction houses require a deposit with each bid which is usually 10%. If you win, you have a certain amount of time to come up with the cash. If you don't you loose your deposit. In auction terms they are effectively taking a 100% deposit. Ridiculous, possibly even illegal in some countries.

But pool is not an auction house. These are not distressed goods. They are not required to liquidate them within a certain time frame. They buy names and sell them by auction. As such they should be subject to the same rules as anyone why sells a product or service.

I'll admit that it was stupid of the buyer not to check the rules for owning the name before bidding. But he's a consumer. We have laws to protect stupid consumers. Pool is a large company with experience and knowlage of the nuances of their products. It's their responsibility to give the buyer information about what he is buying. And I'll bet there's a section in a Canadian consumer rights law that says something similar.

 

[mastodont]

I was scammed by them too!

 

[LuckyRegister]

Last year one of our customer got problem with them also. Our customer won the name and It took nearly one month to get the name after about 6 or 7 calls, messages... I think that their customer care is not good.