Epik, We have a problem. Domain removed from account without permission.

[bmugford]

I am sure as many of you are aware I have had issues with Epik in the past, but decided to give them a chance when I saw a domain I wanted on Name Liquidate.

I purchased the domain PianoMoving.com on 7/20. It was transferred into my account then.
This was the only domain in my account.

It was in my WHOIS information.
I updated the nameservers.

When I just checked it is magically no longer in my account.
The nameservers were changed.
I received zero contact about the domain being moved.

I have all the receipts -

1.) The purchase/renewal from Epik.
2.) The Paypal charge.
3.) Email of when the domain was moved into my account @ Epik.
4.) Email when the nameservers were updated in early August @ Epik.

I don't see any indication that the domain was removed from my account.
On top of zero communication, there also appears to be nothing under "Outgoing Pushes" or "Task History".

I sent a DM to @Rob Monster about this earlier this morning, but have not received a response yet.

I was just notified I received a refund. I don't want a refund.

I want the domain I won, that was in my account, which I had full control over.
It was removed from my account without permission or even notification.

I do not find this acceptable in any way.

@Epik.com, you have some explaining to do.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

I did say this:
"Brad was obviously wronged by Epik here. But I don't think it helped the situation that he apparently only sent Rob a DM on a forum."

Both things can be true. The issue is obviously the fault of Epik and/or Braden, but I'm just saying, I don't think a DM was the right contact method, and I think with any company, people should wait longer for a response.

"Again, Epik should have proactively sent the refund and communicated. But from a customer perspective, sending a DM to a CEO on a forum is never step 1. Even out of self-interest, it's not the fastest way to talk to someone."

Great. Thanks for your opinion.

When the only defense is "communications were not ideal", Epik is not in a real good position to defend their actions.

When you factor in my communications vs. the company that snatched my domain without authorization or notification after a month, I think it is clear which parties communications were far less "ideal".

Brad

 

[bmugford]

Plus, Epik's Terms & Conditions -- like other companies -- do state that they can cancel an auction purchase at their discretion. They didn't give proper notification to Brad, but still, the potential cancellation is in the Terms.

I mean this is not exactly a great talking point for Epik.

Oh, their terms of service allow them to snatch a domain, for some unlimited period of time?

Even if that is the case, falling back on that type of policy to justify this almost looks worse.

That is not likely to make people feel really comfortable and secure with domains in their account.

Not to mention, again as an ICANN accredited registrar they are required to follow ICANN polices. That is what accreditation means.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

I didn't want to read the complete thread:
did epik actually never contact you about that issue?

Any communications were disclosed in the thread.

In my view Epik has made no serious, good faith effort to resolve their "mistake" or "error".

Brad

 

[Start]

I think it is clear which parties communications were far less "ideal".

Yup, that's what I said.

But still, I don't think a DM to a CEO is ever step 1, and I think you should have waited at least to the end of the day for a response, before posting publicly without knowing certain details (like the expiration aspect).

I'm just saying, I think in dispute situations, if taking a "very quick and public" approach (with non-huge companies in particular), the other party is probably going to make less of an effort on remedies.

Again, they're at fault here, but the customer's approach can affect outcomes imo.

That party with either basically Epik or the party buying it on a payment plan.

Well, based on the info in my post here https://www.namepros.com/threads/ep...count-without-permission.1282400/post-8695687 , it normally would be up to the seller (Braden) to do the renewal. This wasn't done the normal way, but it seems like it's either Epik and/or Braden's fault, but probably not that payment plan buyer.

Again, simple request. Can anyone point to a similar situation where a domain was taken without permission or notification a month later in this type of situation?

It sounds like Mister Funsky experienced something similar at GoDaddy, as he said here:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/ep...count-without-permission.1282400/post-8695700

And I had a weird issue with a GoDaddy refund almost a year later, but I don't remember whether I actually had the domain in my account or not.

Oh, their terms of service allow them to snatch a domain, for some unlimited period of time.
Even if that is the case, falling back on that type of policy to justify this almost looks worse.

I see SnapNames also says that. I assume the timeframe would be 60 days, but they don't specify.

 

[bmugford]

It sounds like Mister Funsky experienced something similar at GoDaddy, as he said here:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/ep...count-without-permission.1282400/post-8695700

And I had a weird issue with a GoDaddy refund almost a year later, but I don't remember whether I actually had the domain in my account or not.

I mean an actual example, with an actual domain.

That is what we have here. The facts about what happened are relatively clear.
Removed after a month without authorization, notification, explanation, or refund.

Again, can anyone actually name one similar case with any specifics whatsoever?
Not some random story without any details.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

Well, based on the info in my post here https://www.namepros.com/threads/ep...count-without-permission.1282400/post-8695687 , it normally would be up to the seller (Braden) to do the renewal. This wasn't done the normal way, but it seems like it's either Epik and/or Braden's fault, but probably not that payment plan buyer.

As far as I can tell, @Braden Pollock did not have possession of the domain for quite some time, so I am not sure how he could have possibly been able to renew the domain.

Even if you take what Epik said at face value, they did some "exotic" deal and whatever party was responsible for the renewal failed to carry out their responsibility. That is incompetence.

People lose domains all the time because they fail to renew them.

I don't believe in a normal situation the domain would be recovered. That is where a deviation from the norms would become a factor.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

No, it sounds like Brad would have anyway, but at least then his original post would have more details... which would have prevented a lot of the outlandish and pointless speculation.

- Then sure, maybe even after they respond, you decide to go public. But then at least you have some basic details in the original post, to prevent outlandish & pointless speculation.

The first post of this thread basically included all the relevant factual details of what happened.

The underlying facts did not change in any meaningful way as the thread went on.

The domain was purchased legitimately. It was removed by Epik without authorization, notification, or explanation. No one has denied that.

Those still remain the core facts of what happened.

I have been completely transparent about what happened, meanwhile others can't even point to one similar case with actual details.

Brad

 

[Pairadice]

I have an alternate take just for fun since it appears the thread is getting close to resolved, as there is no remedy, etc. I will probably get blasted for posting this.

I guess the question is: what did bmugford know at the time when he purchased the domain? As an investor why would he choose to spend nearly 1k on a domain that is 11 letters long?

People might say, oh because it's a good name, etc. Yeah but there are tons of such names available for less than 1k if you are an investor. "pianomovers" for example would be also a similar name of equal quality perhaps.

Early in the thread you mentioned the purchase of this particular domain was based on the prior selling price of this exact domain.

Since the sale had taken place in May, you might have known about it from when it was announced on twitter or from other sources such as namebio.

you might have thought it was just expired due to the purchaser's negligence in renewing said domain and the goal was to purchase the domain for 995 and then try to sell it back to them for another $12k or higher due to their stupidity in not renewing the domain.

That would explain why, when scanning names that had recently sold for 5 figures and then you noticed it was recently listed on nameliquidate, which could only be seen as a major error on the purchaser's part in letting the domain expire, you decided to purchase immediately for $995 or something instead of doing what most people would do, and wait for the price to go down to $150 or something and then buy it.

If so - then you were sort of taking advatage of a glitch in epik's system in sending the names immediately to nameliquidate upon expiry - to get the domain - which is really smart!

One could actually farm the names at that price level in the effort to obtain good names immediately that have mistakenly been left to expire.

then later it turned out it was not expired due to the purchaser's negligence but due to epik's negligence while on a manual payment plan. That explanation cannot be made-up because braden confirmed the domain was on a payment plan.

I guess the response is: if you are going to try to do things that are really smart and sneaky, involving capitalizing on a system where a registrar places all names up for sale (BIN) automatically upon expiration, then you have to realize sometimes these ideas will work and sometimes they are not going to work and the domain could be clawed back.

Should you lash out at epik over this, given the foregoing? well clearly it was a mistake and attempted capitalization on that mistake from the get-go and stuff so I don't know.

if you get them in trouble and they have to end nameliquidate as a result, then you won't be able to farm for these expiration mistakes in the future... since the other sites have an "auction" system.

 

[bmugford]

I guess the question is: what did bmugford know at the time when he purchased the domain? As an investor why would he choose to spend nearly 1k on a domain that is 11 letters long?

That is an odd comment. Anyone who did the bare minimum of research would know this is a valuable domain.
If you don't see the clear value in this domain, that is more of a reflection on your ability to value domains.

Piano Moving is an excellent lead generation term, and single leads can brings hundreds or potential thousands of dollars for a difficult move of a high value piano. This is a specific moving niche, not some random domain.

People might say, oh because it's a good name, etc. Yeah but there are tons of such names available for less than 1k if you are an investor. "pianomovers" for example would be also a similar name of equal quality perhaps.

Name one domain available for that price with similar metrics.

Both PianoMover.com and PianoMovers.com are owned by end users. That just illustrates the value of the term that much more.

Early in the thread you mentioned the purchase of this particular domain was based on the prior selling price of this exact domain.

I didn't even know about the $12K sale until it was posted in this thread. Go ahead and ask @Braden Pollock about that. How could I possibly know about a sale that was reported on 8/18 when I bought the domain around a month earlier?

You are talking nonsense with this post.

Brad

 

[tonyk2000]

what did bmugford know at the time when he purchased the domain? As an investor why would he choose to spend nearly 1k on a domain that is 11 letters long?

Not a frequent case, but nothing too special. I no more use Epik or nameliquidate, but I used nameliquidate when they appeared. I had a couple or so of my domains - which I knowingly listed myself (did not want to renew) - purchased for high 3 figures (namely, other investors elected to purchase immediately as soon as they saw the listings).

 

[dirk]

I have an alternate take just for fun since it appears the thread is getting close to resolved, as there is no remedy, etc. I will probably get blasted for posting this.

I guess the question is: what did bmugford know at the time when he purchased the domain? As an investor why would he choose to spend nearly 1k on a domain that is 11 letters long?

People might say, oh because it's a good name, etc. Yeah but there are tons of such names available for less than 1k if you are an investor. "pianomovers" for example would be also a similar name of equal quality perhaps.

Early in the thread you mentioned the purchase of this particular domain was based on the prior selling price of this exact domain.

Since the sale had taken place in May, you might have known about it from when it was announced on twitter or from other sources such as namebio.

you might have thought it was just expired due to the purchaser's negligence in renewing said domain and the goal was to purchase the domain for 995 and then try to sell it back to them for another $12k or higher due to their stupidity in not renewing the domain.

That would explain why, when scanning names that had recently sold for 5 figures and then you noticed it was recently listed on nameliquidate, which could only be seen as a major error on the purchaser's part in letting the domain expire, you decided to purchase immediately for $995 or something instead of doing what most people would do, and wait for the price to go down to $150 or something and then buy it.

If so - then you were sort of taking advatage of a glitch in epik's system in sending the names immediately to nameliquidate upon expiry - to get the domain - which is really smart!

One could actually farm the names at that price level in the effort to obtain good names immediately that have mistakenly been left to expire.

then later it turned out it was not expired due to the purchaser's negligence but due to epik's negligence while on a manual payment plan. That explanation cannot be made-up because braden confirmed the domain was on a payment plan.

I guess the response is: if you are going to try to do things that are really smart and sneaky, involving capitalizing on a system where a registrar places all names up for sale (BIN) automatically upon expiration, then you have to realize sometimes these ideas will work and sometimes they are not going to work and the domain could be clawed back.

Should you lash out at epik over this, given the foregoing? well clearly it was a mistake and attempted capitalization on that mistake from the get-go and stuff so I don't know.

if you get them in trouble and they have to end nameliquidate as a result, then you won't be able to farm for these expiration mistakes in the future... since the other sites have an "auction" system.

You got it all wrong. The previously reported sales price wasn't 12K but $990.

And yes, the value is obvious to a trained eye.

 

[bmugford]

You got it all wrong. The previous sales proce wasn't 12K but $990.

And yes, the value is obvious to a trained eye.

Right, that previous sale was $990 in 2020.

I mentioned that sale to show that $900 was not some out of line price when it comes to purchasing this domain.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

I guess the response is: if you are going to try to do things that are really smart and sneaky, involving capitalizing on a system where a registrar places all names up for sale (BIN) automatically upon expiration, then you have to realize sometimes these ideas will work and sometimes they are not going to work and the domain could be clawed back.

Should you lash out at epik over this, given the foregoing? well clearly it was a mistake and attempted capitalization on that mistake from the get-go and stuff so I don't know.

if you get them in trouble and they have to end nameliquidate as a result, then you won't be able to farm for these expiration mistakes in the future... since the other sites have an "auction" system.

No, the response is you need to get a clue.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and your post is way out of line.

@Braden Pollock please clarify that there is simply no possible way I could know about the $12K sale, when it was only reported on 8/18. The domain was purchased almost a month earlier.

Brad

 

[Pairadice]

you decided to purchase immediately for $995 or something instead of doing what most people would do, and wait for the price to go down to $150 or something and then buy it.

The name is decent and stuff but don't you think it was sort of strange to "jump" at this name at $995.. it's not THAT good of a name.. if you are seeing it 100% as a "brandable" registered in only 12 extensions currently.

also you are the one who has stated numerous times that the cost of domains is prohibitive given their sell-thru rate.

why not wait for it to go down to $150? Did you really think someone else would want this name that badly that you couldn't wait?

I have some stuff I would love to show you if you are buying similar names for $995. nothing involving pianos or anything but, well let me check if I have a nice piano domain . actually I do have one, I might be willing to sell it for $995. currently it's listed for $3k retail.

I am not sure if I believe that you chose this name out of thousands and thousands and spent that much on it as a brandable!

 

[bmugford]

The name is decent and stuff but don't you think it was sort of strange to "jump" at this name at $995.. it's not THAT good of a name.. if you are seeing it 100% as a "brandable" registered in only 12 extensions currently.

You are either trolling, or simply don't understand domain values that well.

The term "pianomoving" is taken in 216 .COM alone with the words together.
It is a highly desirable term.

why not wait for it to go down to $150? Did you really think someone else would want this name that badly that you couldn't wait?

I am not sure if I believe that you chose this name out of thousands and thousands and spent that much on it as a brandable!

Are you serious? This is 2022.
You could not even get this quality of domain for $150 15 years ago.

"Piano Moving" is not a brandable. It is a keyword domain in a lucrative field, perfect for lead generation.

I think the problem here really comes down to your ability to understand the value of a domain like this.

Brad

 

[hui2000]

The name is decent and stuff but don't you think it was sort of strange to "jump" at this name at $995.. it's not THAT good of a name.. if you are seeing it 100% as a "brandable" registered in only 12 extensions currently.

With much respect and not trying to create an argument or debate on price.

I honestly feel the name is worthy $995.

 

[Lox]

I honestly feel the name is worthy $995.

Piano Moving Costs at a Glance

• Overall price range: $150-$5,000
• Price per hour: $10-$100+
• Local move: $1.50-$2.50 per mile; $350-$1,000 total
• Long-distance move: $2.50-$10 per mile; $700-$3,500 total
• Overseas move: $2,000-$5,000
• Upright piano: $150-$300, local; $1,000+, long-distance
• Grand piano: $200-$1,500, local; $2,000+, long-distance

source

 

[hui2000]

Piano Moving Costs at a Glance

• Overall price range: $150-$5,000
• Price per hour: $10-$100+
• Local move: $1.50-$2.50 per mile; $350-$1,000 total
• Long-distance move: $2.50-$10 per mile; $700-$3,500 total
• Overseas move: $2,000-$5,000
• Upright piano: $150-$300, local; $1,000+, long-distance
• Grand piano: $200-$1,500, local; $2,000+, long-distance

source

Thanks for sharing, as this brings out the true picture why i said the name is worthy $995

 

[Lox]

Thanks for sharing, as this brings out the true picture why i said the name is worthy $995

The way how you define the dn value … learning about is a lot more challenging than it may seem.

 

[HotKey]

Piano Moving Costs at a Glance