IT.COM

Epik, We have a problem. Domain removed from account without permission.

Spaceship Spaceship
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I am sure as many of you are aware I have had issues with Epik in the past, but decided to give them a chance when I saw a domain I wanted on Name Liquidate.

I purchased the domain PianoMoving.com on 7/20. It was transferred into my account then.
This was the only domain in my account.

It was in my WHOIS information.
I updated the nameservers.

When I just checked it is magically no longer in my account.
The nameservers were changed.
I received zero contact about the domain being moved.

I have all the receipts -

1.) The purchase/renewal from Epik.
2.) The Paypal charge.
3.) Email of when the domain was moved into my account @ Epik.
4.) Email when the nameservers were updated in early August @ Epik.

I don't see any indication that the domain was removed from my account.
On top of zero communication, there also appears to be nothing under "Outgoing Pushes" or "Task History".

I sent a DM to @Rob Monster about this earlier this morning, but have not received a response yet.

I was just notified I received a refund. I don't want a refund.

I want the domain I won, that was in my account, which I had full control over.
It was removed from my account without permission or even notification.

I do not find this acceptable in any way.

@Epik.com, you have some explaining to do.

Brad
 
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The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
Anger is great in business. That’s who I want to hold my domains. A company that thinks they are entitled to all my domains and can transfer them away at whim.

Let's hope they still do something it's just Rob takes these threads personally, last person they removed a domain from was they offered 50% of the sale proceeds but it was quite a bit of a different case and said they would have given it back if no thread would have been opened. I know that's a different case because the domain was 32 days expired, but it does show they might help you a little or might help you less out of anger
 
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Let's hope they still do something it's just Rob takes these threads personally, last person they removed a domain from was they offered 50% of the sale proceeds but it was quite a bit of a different case and said they would have given it back if no thread would have been opened. I know that's a different case because the domain was 32 days expired, but it does show they might help you a little or might help you less out of anger

Yeah, well I am especially offended when Rob accused me of making defamatory statements.
I asked him what was factually untrue, and he did not respond.

Despite that, I am still willing to try to resolve this. It is Rob and anyone else at Epik who is MIA here.

Brad
 
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Yeah, well I am especially offended when Rob accused me of making defamatory statements.
I asked him what was factually untrue, and he did not respond.

Despite that, I am still willing to try to resolve this. It is Rob and anyone else at Epik who is MIA here.

Brad
Yeah, I support you 100% on contacting icann. It's hard to say if the legal scholars look at a domain as being rented and think they can take it away at whim. But, yeah they should really develop some rules about this. I mean what if a 3L .com or 4L .com disappeared from an account. Also, even just a $900 domain and you being refunded is really a major issue they should address
 
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Anger is great in business. That’s who I want to hold my domains. A company that thinks they are entitled to all my domains and can transfer them away at whim.

I have dealt with countless companies that have messed up over the years.
They resolve the issue because it was their fault.

Someone's feelings don't change the facts of the case. In fact, maybe people would be less angry if they did the right thing to start with. Even now, they could still do the right thing.

Brad
 
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I have dealt with countless companies that have messed up over the years.
They resolve the issue because it was their fault.

Someone's feelings don't change the facts of the case. In fact, maybe people would be less angry if they did the right thing to start with. Even now, they could still do the right thing.

Brad

I agree, it’s not relevant how you initially handle a situation but how you can resolve it. I am hoping to see that outcome here.
 
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I have dealt with countless companies that have messed up over the years.
They resolve the issue because it was their fault.

Someone's feelings don't change the facts of the case. In fact, maybe people would be less angry if they did the right thing to start with. Even now, they could still do the right thing.

Brad
Hopefully, something happens that makes you the customer happy and works out for the best. This seems a bit tricky to solve.
 
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Yeah, I support you 100% on contacting icann. It's hard to say if the legal scholars look at a domain as being rented and think they can take it away at whim. But, yeah they should really develop some rules about this. I mean what if a 3L .com or 4L .com disappeared from an account. Also, even just a $900 domain and you being refunded is really a major issue they should address
In my view they kind of lost the defense of "Oh, it was a mistake" when they provided no notification, explanation, or refund. Any explanation came well after the domain was removed without permission.

If it was a mistake why not contact me and provide an explanation?
The optics of that are not good.

Again, if I had any significant number of domains there I likely would have never even noticed it missing.

Brad
 
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In my view they kind of lost the defense of "Oh, it was a mistake" when they provided no notification, explanation, or refund.

If it was a mistake why not contact me and provide an explanation?
The optics of that are not good.

Again, if I had any significant number of domains there I likely would have never even noticed it missing.

Brad
Yeah. That makes me wonder are most registers looking at domains as rented property (paying fees yearly) that they can take back at whim. But, then again we don't hear about your issue happening very often.
 
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Should we all be screen-shotting things now?

I wouldn't stay with a registrar where I believe I need to make screenshots. The way this story unfolds, epik is absolute no-no for me.

The company is acting like a PR disaster. Putting your head in sand doesn't make the problem go away. Deal with it and make it whole!!!
 
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Yes, it just magically disappeared from my account without a trace.
Poof, gone.

It also strikes me as odd, and I don't accept Epik's response after the fact at face value for a number of reasons. When I file the ICANN complaint I am likely to expand on that.

Brad


so I guess u wouldn't be talking here if epik did notify u.about removal and communicated better?
 
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Something from the history... Good old times, snapnames not yet owned by netsol, pre-release domains are delivered directly with their respective registrars (so, no 60 days locks). Won something with little or no bidding, paid just 2 figures. Got the domain. Since there were no locks, transferred away immediately. To my surprise, gaining registrar (my preferred registrar) received the domain renewed for extra 5 years. Tried to figure out who renewed it, where and why - and it appeared that the domain was renewed by snapnames partner registrar (!) after I received it but before I transferred it away. OK, what can I do? Nothing, let it be so.

In a week or two, received an inquiry - Hello Tony, my name is John Doe, I am with snapnames brokerage and we have a buyer for <domain in question>. OK, we agreed on price (satisfactory enduser aftermarket price for this domain at that time). Deal.

What really happened: Snapnames partner registrar did not renew the domain (even though they were paid by the previous user) and sold it as expired instead. They applied the renewal to this domain @ my account, and I transferred the domain away. What a mess. To resolve the issue, Snapnames and their partner registrar simply purchased the domain back from me, and paid honest aftermarket price...

I wrote all this because piano moving situation is somewhat similar. Instead of reversing the transaction, or discussing the compensation, or applying $500 credit, another option for Epik was to simply purchase the domain from Brad. So, what prevented them from making an offer at least? Must be the fact that the domain was still with Epik...
 
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Let's hope they still do something it's just Rob takes these threads personally, last person they removed a domain from was they offered 50% of the sale proceeds but it was quite a bit of a different case and said they would have given it back if no thread would have been opened. I know that's a different case because the domain was 32 days expired, but it does show they might help you a little or might help you less out of anger
Rectifying (or not) company screw ups based on a thread here is not how ethical platforms function. You seem to be implying Epik and RM make decisions based on revenge.

How anyone can be comfortable keeping names there with that kind of mentality is beyond me. Something similar could happen to any of us. Epik is Epik’s own worst enemy.
 
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so I guess u wouldn't be talking here if epik did notify u.about removal and communicated better?

If Epik acted differently at any step of this process, it was likely to have a better outcome.

But, when a domain is taken without permission a month later and they provided no notice, explanation, or refund that is an issue. It is the totality of events that is concerning to me, and probably some others.

If they caught it sooner, provided notice, gave an explanation, and provided a refund at the time it is highly unlikely this thread would have been created. Unfortunately, they did none of that.

Brad
 
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Has @jberryhill chimed in yet?

I'm waiting for the check to clear.

While I frequently comment on a variety of legal matters in my spare time, I'm not on call to comment on all or most legal disputes in the industry. Most of these things hinge on "facts" which may or may not be as reported, and usually involve a review of various terms of service, etc.. Additionally, someone might have a dispute in which they might ultimately decide to contact or hire an attorney, so why should I invest the time to disqualify myself by making comments on everything that comes down the pike?

Some general principles applicable here are:

1. Like it or not, "mistake" can be a defense to a contract action. Unilateral mistake is a disfavored defense in contract disputes, but that does not mean that it does not work on sufficient evidence. It looks like the domain name was supposed to be maintained pursuant to another agreement, someone dropped the ball, the domain went into the sales pipeline, and nobody noticed until it was sold to someone else. But, keep a pin on that thought for a moment.

2. The measure of damages in something like this is typically what you paid, not what it is "worth". As with anything, there are exceptions to that, and there is objective evidence of value - in the form of the subsequent sale.

3. This is the interesting one to me - let's talk about who has "owned" this domain name. Since someone mentioned something about ICANN, it is worth reviewing how ICANN sees a domain registration...

The things that a registrar is supposed to do, as far as ICANN is concerned, are defined by the Registrar Accreditation Agreement RAA, which was last revised in 2013. The ICANN RAA is here:

https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/approved-with-specs-2013-09-17-en

ICANN views the registrar as registering domain names at the behest of the "Registered Name Holder". As far as an "account holder" goes, the account holder might, or might not, be the Registered Name Holder. So, merely having a name in one's account, and being the registrant of the domain name can be two different things. This is actually pretty normal when you think about technical, legal, business or other service providers who hold their customer's names, registered to their customer, but in their accounts as administrators.

Looking at the WHOIS history of the domain name, the registrant has been:

Registrant Name: REDACTED FOR PRIVACY (DT)
Registrant Organization: Legal Brand Domains
Registrant Street: 26565 Agoura Road Suite 200
Registrant City: Calabasas
Registrant State/Province: CA
Registrant Postal Code: 91302
Registrant Country: us
Registrant Phone: 18188848075

...and then changed on 6/17/2022, just after expiration, to:

Registrant Name: Privacy Administrator
Registrant Organization: Anonymize, Inc.
Registrant Street: 1100 Bellevue Way NE, Ste 8A-601
Registrant City: Bellevue
Registrant State/Province: WA
Registrant Postal Code: 98004
Registrant Country: US
Registrant Phone: +1.4253668810

Now, to be clear, Anonymize Inc. is, as I understand it, a separate company from Epik the registrar. So, to Epik, the registrant is the entity listed above. That WHOIS information remains consistent since June.

The 2013 RAA includes a "Specification on Privacy and Proxy Registrations". That specification was supposed to expire in 2017 until the conclusion of an ICANN policy group to come up with a privacy/proxy accreditation standard. With the entire policy mess around registrant information generally, the 2013 specification periodically is extended (and was recently given an additional year beyond the extension noted on the page linked above).

But, one of the takeaways is that the registrant of the domain name has been whomever Anonymize Inc. might say it is. In a situation like this, a typical registrar response to someone complaining to ICANN about "my domain name" is that the registrant of the domain name has been (in this instance) Anonymize Inc., so the person submitting the complaint is not and has not been the registrant of the domain name. Certainly, it was never in the registrar's WHOIS data that the name was registered to whomever is making the complaint.

This sort of problem is one of the long list of reasons why privacy services are crap. If you want privacy, form your own corporation, register your names to that corporation (LLC or whatever), and use that. But, no, we have this industry where people take million dollar assets, hand them to a stranger to hold, and say "don't tell anyone its mine." How often do you do that in real life? If something goes wrong, you are complicating the process of saying "it's mine" in the first place.

"Who is the registrant of a domain name" can be something of a slippery question when there is a privacy service involved, and particularly if the privacy service purports to be a different entity than the registrar.

4. At long last, we come to Epik's terms concerning aftermarket transactions. Nameliquidate's "terms" link apparently forwards to the Epik.com general terms, which include such gems as...

"We reserve the right to reject or cancel your After Market Domain Name registration for any reason including, but not limited to, any pricing errors. In the event your After Market Domain Name registration is rejected or cancelled by us, for any reason, we will refund in full the amount of the purchase price for the After Market Domain Name as your sole remedy."


Epik is claiming the reason is there was a mistake. That's well within "any reason". They don't have to explain it in detail to you, but you can spend a lot of money litigating to find out whether they really made one or not. Then we come to:

"IN NO EVENT SHALL EPIK, ITS AFFILIATES, SUBSIDIARIES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES, OR SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE FOR LOST PROFITS OR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SITE, THE SERVICES, OR THIS AGREEMENT (HOWEVER ARISING, INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE). EPIK`S LIABILITY, AND THE LIABILITY OF ITS AFFILIATES, SUBSIDIARIES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES, AND SUPPLIERS, TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTIES IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE IS LIMITED TO THE GREATER OF (A) THE AMOUNT OF FEES YOU HAVE PAID TO US IN THE 12 MONTHS PRIOR TO THE ACTION GIVING RISE TO LIABILITY, AND (B) $100."

So, the first question is, "Are you shooting for the fees or going for the $100?"

Now, of course, whenever these things come up, someone is sure to throw around things like "contract of adhesion", "unconscionable terms", "illusory contract" and so on. But those things are easier said than actually litigated successfully. The last one - saying that it is not a "contract" because there is no real obligation - is easily addressed by the fact that they indeed are obligated to do various things at the risk of your fees or $100.

But let's take unconscionability. You'd be surprised what kinds of awful contracts are held not to be "unconscionable" legally. Is it "unconscionable" for a registrar to limit their liability to $100 when they are dealing with assets that could be worth millions. Well, one answer to that question is to consider that if you are in a business that is essential to the internet, and you are dealing with a million customers at a profit margin of a couple of dollars a piece, to how much potential liability should you reasonably be expected to expose yourself? At $100 a pop, your million customers represent a potential liability of $100 million dollars. That limit looks a lot more reasonable if you are simply looking at both sides of the table.

Now, normally, if you as an individual are concerned about loss of assets, you can find appropriate insurance from a duly-licensed and regulated insurance provider. One of the surprising finds in this thread is that, although you had a domain name and you don't have it any more, registrar revocations are apparently not a domain loss scenario that DNProtect would get excited about. Given that pretty much any and every registrar has similar "we can do what we want with little recourse" policies - and which time and time again we see them do - then it's good to know there is at least one protection vendor who will not cover this sort of scenario.

That's for starters. Can all that be argued against? Sure. But those points are baggage that you have at the starting line of this sort of dispute. The ball does not start mid-field in these kinds of situations, but deep in your own territory. That's all.

There's another thread here in legal issues where someone is going to sue so many people that he wants suggestions on who to include. The probability of an actual lawsuit is very low, and these sorts of registrar disputes - in their infinite variety - is why registrars have very protective terms in the first place. It's a big world and new problems come up all of the time.

But, Keith, in general, I'm much more interested in IP and trademark issues, some transactional issues, and civil procedure issues (how does one file, serve, and move forward with a suit) for recreational kibitzing, because the "I'm upset at some registrar and I'm going to sue them for (whatever)" threads are a dime a dozen. Since I spend my own time commenting on these things, then I pick the ones I find interesting or worthwhile on my own. If I've been tagged once and don't comment, it's probably because (a) I'm on one of my months-long forum diets, or (b) it's just not interesting to me.

The class of "I did X at a registrar and didn't get what I expected/wanted" stuff is more about how a registrar chooses to deal with their customer service issues and does not usually present any fact patterns that change the basic dynamic of "screw you" registration and service contracts.

Definitely sucks. I'd be angry too. As mentioned a couple of times above, sometimes the best thing you can do is make some noise. But as a legal matter, these things aren't usually worth pursuing.

One practical thing I have observed about these kind of "we corrected our mistake" registrar actions is that they wouldn't happen if the domain name were moved to a different registrar. I'm not going back to check the timeline on this one, but one thing to think about as a practical safeguard is that when you purchase a domain name at a registrar-affiliated service of some kind, then move that domain name to another registrar just as soon as you can. Whether that applies here, I don't know. But it is worth keeping in mind, and not just at this registrar. You might think "all sales are final" but the terms are pretty open-ended on that subject.

An example of this sort of thing crossed my desk a while back. My client bought a name at a registrar-affiliated drop auction. As soon as was possible, my client transferred the name to another registrar. The first transfer request was denied by the losing registrar. My client complained to them about the failure, submitted a second transfer request, and it went through. Sometimes, you can simply ask to have a lock removed. After the transfer, the gaining registrar locked the name and said there had been an inquiry about the transfer. Shortly after that, the gaining registrar said everything was fine and removed the lock. Finally, my client received an email from the legal department of the original registrar saying they wanted to "talk about the domain name before pursuing legal action." My client sent me that email and I replied by saying that they could certainly write to me and explain the legal claim to me. The registrar never did and went silent. I eventually got the impression that they were trying fix some customer service snafu at their end - and they would have done so if they were still the registrar.
 
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In a situation like this, a typical registrar response to someone complaining to ICANN about "my domain name" is that the registrant of the domain name has been (in this instance) Anonymize Inc., so the person submitting the complaint is not and has not been the registrant of the domain name. Certainly, it was never in the registrar's WHOIS data that the name was registered to whomever is making the complaint.
@jberryhill thank you so much for the detailed clarification!
Aren't "anonymize inc" (as well as any and all other registrar-powered proxies) supposed to disclose the real registrant details (non-anonymous) in their periodic deposits of whois info to ICANN-approved escrow data providers /iron mountain for example/?

Additionally, someone might have a dispute in which they might ultimately decide to contact or hire an attorney, so why should I invest the time to disqualify myself by making comments on everything that comes down the pike?
Imo, should Brad hire an attorney John Berryhill - this alone would be sufficient for the registrar to start discussing a settlement :))
 
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Imo, should Brad hire an attorney John Berryhill - this alone would be sufficient for the registrar to start discussing a settlement :))

These type of things are quite expensive and time consuming to litigate.

Even if you have a legal defense of "Oh, we can do whatever", that is not exactly a strong reputational defense that is likely going to make other people in a relatively small field feel comfortable with you.

Brad
 
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One practical thing I have observed about these kind of "we corrected our mistake" registrar actions is that they wouldn't happen if the domain name were moved to a different registrar. I'm not going back to check the timeline on this one, but one thing to think about as a practical safeguard is that when you purchase a domain name at a registrar-affiliated service of some kind, then move that domain name to another registrar just as soon as you can. Whether that applies here, I don't know. But it is worth keeping in mind, and not just at this registrar. You might think "all sales are final" but the terms are pretty open-ended on that subject.

An example of this sort of thing crossed my desk a while back. My client bought a name at a registrar-affiliated drop auction. As soon as was possible, my client transferred the name to another registrar. The first transfer request was denied by the losing registrar. My client complained to them about the failure, submitted a second transfer request, and it went through. Sometimes, you can simply ask to have a lock removed. After the transfer, the gaining registrar locked the name and said there had been an inquiry about the transfer. Shortly after that, the gaining registrar said everything was fine and removed the lock. Finally, my client received an email from the legal department of the original registrar saying they wanted to "talk about the domain name before pursuing legal action." My client sent me that email and I replied by saying that they could certainly write to me and explain the legal claim to me. The registrar never did and went silent. I eventually got the impression that they were trying fix some customer service snafu at their end - and they would have done so if they were still the registrar.
John,

I appreciate the detailed response.

The entire reason I even noticed the domain missing was because I logged into my account to see if the escrow hold was up so I could transfer it out.

The only way Epik was able to remove the domain without authorization, is because they had access to do it.

Brad
 
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I'm waiting for the check to clear.

While I frequently comment on a variety of legal matters in my spare time, I'm not on call to comment on all or most legal disputes in the industry. Most of these things hinge on "facts" which may or may not be as reported, and usually involve a review of various terms of service, etc.. Additionally, someone might have a dispute in which they might ultimately decide to contact or hire an attorney, so why should I invest the time to disqualify myself by making comments on everything that comes down the pike?

Some general principles applicable here are:

1. Like it or not, "mistake" can be a defense to a contract action. Unilateral mistake is a disfavored defense in contract disputes, but that does not mean that it does not work on sufficient evidence. It looks like the domain name was supposed to be maintained pursuant to another agreement, someone dropped the ball, the domain went into the sales pipeline, and nobody noticed until it was sold to someone else. But, keep a pin on that thought for a moment.

2. The measure of damages in something like this is typically what you paid, not what it is "worth". As with anything, there are exceptions to that, and there is objective evidence of value - in the form of the subsequent sale.

3. This is the interesting one to me - let's talk about who has "owned" this domain name. Since someone mentioned something about ICANN, it is worth reviewing how ICANN sees a domain registration...

The things that a registrar is supposed to do, as far as ICANN is concerned, are defined by the Registrar Accreditation Agreement RAA, which was last revised in 2013. The ICANN RAA is here:

https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/approved-with-specs-2013-09-17-en

ICANN views the registrar as registering domain names at the behest of the "Registered Name Holder". As far as an "account holder" goes, the account holder might, or might not, be the Registered Name Holder. So, merely having a name in one's account, and being the registrant of the domain name can be two different things. This is actually pretty normal when you think about technical, legal, business or other service providers who hold their customer's names, registered to their customer, but in their accounts as administrators.

Looking at the WHOIS history of the domain name, the registrant has been:

Registrant Name: REDACTED FOR PRIVACY (DT)
Registrant Organization: Legal Brand Domains
Registrant Street: 26565 Agoura Road Suite 200
Registrant City: Calabasas
Registrant State/Province: CA
Registrant Postal Code: 91302
Registrant Country: us
Registrant Phone: 18188848075

...and then changed on 6/17/2022, just after expiration, to:

Registrant Name: Privacy Administrator
Registrant Organization: Anonymize, Inc.
Registrant Street: 1100 Bellevue Way NE, Ste 8A-601
Registrant City: Bellevue
Registrant State/Province: WA
Registrant Postal Code: 98004
Registrant Country: US
Registrant Phone: +1.4253668810

Now, to be clear, Anonymize Inc. is, as I understand it, a separate company from Epik the registrar. So, to Epik, the registrant is the entity listed above. That WHOIS information remains consistent since June.

The 2013 RAA includes a "Specification on Privacy and Proxy Registrations". That specification was supposed to expire in 2017 until the conclusion of an ICANN policy group to come up with a privacy/proxy accreditation standard. With the entire policy mess around registrant information generally, the 2013 specification periodically is extended (and was recently given an additional year beyond the extension noted on the page linked above).

But, one of the takeaways is that the registrant of the domain name has been whomever Anonymize Inc. might say it is. In a situation like this, a typical registrar response to someone complaining to ICANN about "my domain name" is that the registrant of the domain name has been (in this instance) Anonymize Inc., so the person submitting the complaint is not and has not been the registrant of the domain name. Certainly, it was never in the registrar's WHOIS data that the name was registered to whomever is making the complaint.

This sort of problem is one of the long list of reasons why privacy services are crap. If you want privacy, form your own corporation, register your names to that corporation (LLC or whatever), and use that. But, no, we have this industry where people take million dollar assets, hand them to a stranger to hold, and say "don't tell anyone its mine." How often do you do that in real life? If something goes wrong, you are complicating the process of saying "it's mine" in the first place.

"Who is the registrant of a domain name" can be something of a slippery question when there is a privacy service involved, and particularly if the privacy service purports to be a different entity than the registrar.

4. At long last, we come to Epik's terms concerning aftermarket transactions. Nameliquidate's "terms" link apparently forwards to the Epik.com general terms, which include such gems as...

"We reserve the right to reject or cancel your After Market Domain Name registration for any reason including, but not limited to, any pricing errors. In the event your After Market Domain Name registration is rejected or cancelled by us, for any reason, we will refund in full the amount of the purchase price for the After Market Domain Name as your sole remedy."

Epik is claiming the reason is there was a mistake. That's well within "any reason". They don't have to explain it in detail to you, but you can spend a lot of money litigating to find out whether they really made one or not. Then we come to:

"IN NO EVENT SHALL EPIK, ITS AFFILIATES, SUBSIDIARIES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES, OR SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE FOR LOST PROFITS OR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SITE, THE SERVICES, OR THIS AGREEMENT (HOWEVER ARISING, INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE). EPIK`S LIABILITY, AND THE LIABILITY OF ITS AFFILIATES, SUBSIDIARIES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES, AND SUPPLIERS, TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTIES IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE IS LIMITED TO THE GREATER OF (A) THE AMOUNT OF FEES YOU HAVE PAID TO US IN THE 12 MONTHS PRIOR TO THE ACTION GIVING RISE TO LIABILITY, AND (B) $100."

So, the first question is, "Are you shooting for the fees or going for the $100?"

Now, of course, whenever these things come up, someone is sure to throw around things like "contract of adhesion", "unconscionable terms", "illusory contract" and so on. But those things are easier said than actually litigated successfully. The last one - saying that it is not a "contract" because there is no real obligation - is easily addressed by the fact that they indeed are obligated to do various things at the risk of your fees or $100.

But let's take unconscionability. You'd be surprised what kinds of awful contracts are held not to be "unconscionable" legally. Is it "unconscionable" for a registrar to limit their liability to $100 when they are dealing with assets that could be worth millions. Well, one answer to that question is to consider that if you are in a business that is essential to the internet, and you are dealing with a million customers at a profit margin of a couple of dollars a piece, to how much potential liability should you reasonably be expected to expose yourself? At $100 a pop, your million customers represent a potential liability of $100 million dollars. That limit looks a lot more reasonable if you are simply looking at both sides of the table.

Now, normally, if you as an individual are concerned about loss of assets, you can find appropriate insurance from a duly-licensed and regulated insurance provider. One of the surprising finds in this thread is that, although you had a domain name and you don't have it any more, registrar revocations are apparently not a domain loss scenario that DNProtect would get excited about. Given that pretty much any and every registrar has similar "we can do what we want with little recourse" policies - and which time and time again we see them do - then it's good to know there is at least one protection vendor who will not cover this sort of scenario.

That's for starters. Can all that be argued against? Sure. But those points are baggage that you have at the starting line of this sort of dispute. The ball does not start mid-field in these kinds of situations, but deep in your own territory. That's all.

There's another thread here in legal issues where someone is going to sue so many people that he wants suggestions on who to include. The probability of an actual lawsuit is very low, and these sorts of registrar disputes - in their infinite variety - is why registrars have very protective terms in the first place. It's a big world and new problems come up all of the time.

But, Keith, in general, I'm much more interested in IP and trademark issues, some transactional issues, and civil procedure issues (how does one file, serve, and move forward with a suit) for recreational kibitzing, because the "I'm upset at some registrar and I'm going to sue them for (whatever)" threads are a dime a dozen. Since I spend my own time commenting on these things, then I pick the ones I find interesting or worthwhile on my own. If I've been tagged once and don't comment, it's probably because (a) I'm on one of my months-long forum diets, or (b) it's just not interesting to me.

The class of "I did X at a registrar and didn't get what I expected/wanted" stuff is more about how a registrar chooses to deal with their customer service issues and does not usually present any fact patterns that change the basic dynamic of "screw you" registration and service contracts.

Definitely sucks. I'd be angry too. As mentioned a couple of times above, sometimes the best thing you can do is make some noise. But as a legal matter, these things aren't usually worth pursuing.

One practical thing I have observed about these kind of "we corrected our mistake" registrar actions is that they wouldn't happen if the domain name were moved to a different registrar. I'm not going back to check the timeline on this one, but one thing to think about as a practical safeguard is that when you purchase a domain name at a registrar-affiliated service of some kind, then move that domain name to another registrar just as soon as you can. Whether that applies here, I don't know. But it is worth keeping in mind, and not just at this registrar. You might think "all sales are final" but the terms are pretty open-ended on that subject.

An example of this sort of thing crossed my desk a while back. My client bought a name at a registrar-affiliated drop auction. As soon as was possible, my client transferred the name to another registrar. The first transfer request was denied by the losing registrar. My client complained to them about the failure, submitted a second transfer request, and it went through. Sometimes, you can simply ask to have a lock removed. After the transfer, the gaining registrar locked the name and said there had been an inquiry about the transfer. Shortly after that, the gaining registrar said everything was fine and removed the lock. Finally, my client received an email from the legal department of the original registrar saying they wanted to "talk about the domain name before pursuing legal action." My client sent me that email and I replied by saying that they could certainly write to me and explain the legal claim to me. The registrar never did and went silent. I eventually got the impression that they were trying fix some customer service snafu at their end - and they would have done so if they were still the registrar.
Wow! Thanks for the lengthy and thorough response!

I think the big question here is whether or not a registrar can pluck a domain out of an account based on their own findings?

As Brad said, epik was only able to remove the domain because they had internal access. If Brad moved this to another registrar… and that’s the real issue!!!
 
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@bmugford it’s amazing how a simple question can’t be answered with a simple response πŸ€¦β€β™‚οΈ
 
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The entire reason I even noticed the domain missing was because I logged into my account to see if the escrow hold was up so I could transfer it out.

Yep, that's kind of amazing. Normally, one would expect to receive a notice to that effect.

What I would suspect here is that the sales fulfillment engine simply trundled along and transferred the purchased name without really having a check on whether the seller and registrant were identical.

I've seen this sort of thing, or close to it, on other platforms. Someone will buy a domain name that is listed in multiple marketplaces. For whatever reason, a zombie sale listing will continue at the registrar marketplace. The name is purchased and the registrar proceeds to transfer the domain name.

There is some indication this domain name was subject to special handling, and it could simply be that the underlying software simply was not built to support this particular case. So the sale simply proceeded without notice to you.


3.5. Reserved
3.6. Reserved
3.7.5.5 Reserved
3.7.5.6 Reserved


It is unusual to have anything "reserved" in public terms, but this is what we see. What if any of the above "reserved" actually says: "NameLiquidate sales by Braden Pollock to Brad Mugford can be reversed anytime"?

That doesn't mean there are 'secret terms'. Usually things like that happen because the terms have been revised. But, because there are numbered paragraphs, they'd have to change all their form emails etc. if they re-numbered the agreement every time a section was deleted, moved, or what have you. It's sort of like 'this page intentionally left blank' in some documents to signify a page that is intentionally blank. You also see this kind of thing in statutes which have been amended to eliminate sections.


I think the big question here is whether or not a registrar can pluck a domain out of an account based on their own findings?

Yep. Happens all of the time when, for example, everyone concludes that a domain name was stolen. That's the kind of thing @bhartzer does all of the time - work with registrars to resolve stolen name claims.

Oh, one other takeaway from all of this is also pretty basic:

IF YOU ENTER INTO AN N YEAR LEASE OR LEASE/PURCHASE ON A DOMAIN NAME - RENEW IT OUT FOR THOSE N YEARS WHEN YOU MAKE THE DEAL.

This whole sorry episode appears to have arisen from the group efforts of several idiots who were, one way or another, party to a time-structured agreement of some kind.

For example, I frequently hold names in escrow for parties who are carrying out a transaction. If it is, say, a five year lease-to-purchase agreement or something along those lines, then even if there is an early payment option I will typically require SOMEONE to pay five years worth or registration on that name before I take it into escrow.

Relying on "somebody" to pay annual renewals on a domain name that might be in escrow for N years is just asking for this sort of trouble.
 
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Oh, one other takeaway from all of this is also pretty basic:

IF YOU ENTER INTO AN N YEAR LEASE OR LEASE/PURCHASE ON A DOMAIN NAME - RENEW IT OUT FOR THOSE N YEARS WHEN YOU MAKE THE DEAL.

This whole sorry episode appears to have arisen from the group efforts of several idiots who were, one way or another, party to a time-structured agreement of some kind.

For example, I frequently hold names in escrow for parties who are carrying out a transaction. If it is, say, a five year lease-to-purchase agreement or something along those lines, then even if there is an early payment option I will typically require SOMEONE to pay five years worth or registration on that name before I take it into escrow.

Relying on "somebody" to pay annual renewals on a domain name that might be in escrow for N years is just asking for this sort of trouble.

Yes, that make sense.

It really should have been renewed before or when it entered that contract, as it appears to have expired around a month later.

Brad
 
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Yep, that's kind of amazing. Normally, one would expect to receive a notice to that effect.

Yes, to me this is as big of an issue as the unauthorized removal itself.

It reminds me of Office Space where they "fix" the glitch where Milton was fired years early, but he still showed up for work and got a paycheck. They just stopped the paycheck and never told him he was fired to avoid conflict.

The problem is not just that it was removed, it is that it was removed without notice or explanation and no refund was provided until I stumbled on that.

I have never had a domain removed from my account, anywhere, without some type of notice provided.
It is a pretty important thing when you own thousands of domains.

Brad
 
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I felt sympathy to Brad. Recently I can't withdrawal my fund from Epik.com and this issue lasted for a month without process. I feel very disappointed and angry at Epik.com.
 
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sometimes the previous owners of the domains manage to renew the domain late sometimes months after expiry, which is supposedly what the auction lock is all about. It has happened to me before they just remove the name from your account and issue a refund.

I know it sucks but at least they should explain what happened.
 
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sometimes the previous owners of the domains manage to renew the domain late sometimes months after expiry, which is supposedly what the auction lock is all about. It has happened to me before they just remove the name from your account and issue a refund.

I know it sucks but at least they should explain what happened.

Do you have any specific examples you can point to of a registrant simply renewing a domain "months" later and it being returned to them?

Brad
 
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