Epik, We have a problem. Domain removed from account without permission.

[bmugford]

I am sure as many of you are aware I have had issues with Epik in the past, but decided to give them a chance when I saw a domain I wanted on Name Liquidate.

I purchased the domain PianoMoving.com on 7/20. It was transferred into my account then.
This was the only domain in my account.

It was in my WHOIS information.
I updated the nameservers.

When I just checked it is magically no longer in my account.
The nameservers were changed.
I received zero contact about the domain being moved.

I have all the receipts -

1.) The purchase/renewal from Epik.
2.) The Paypal charge.
3.) Email of when the domain was moved into my account @ Epik.
4.) Email when the nameservers were updated in early August @ Epik.

I don't see any indication that the domain was removed from my account.
On top of zero communication, there also appears to be nothing under "Outgoing Pushes" or "Task History".

I sent a DM to @Rob Monster about this earlier this morning, but have not received a response yet.

I was just notified I received a refund. I don't want a refund.

I want the domain I won, that was in my account, which I had full control over.
It was removed from my account without permission or even notification.

I do not find this acceptable in any way.

@Epik.com, you have some explaining to do.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

And I will tell you what - if GoDaddy or any other company did the same thing to me, I would start the same thread.

Brad

 

[Start]

I own thousand of domains at GoDaddy. I have purchased who knows how many over the years there and never once had a domain removed from my account.

Yeah, I've bought so many domains at GoDaddy that I even have a lot "refund emails"... for cases when the previous owner renewed the domain before it got to my account.

Except that refund almost a year later was an odd one, but I don't know now which domain it was.

 

[Mister Funsky]

Once the domain is transferred to your account..the transaction is complete.

At Godaddy when you pay for a name.. they wait until the real owner doesn't renew before they push the domain to you

That, simply, is not the case in my world and experience. I've never gotten an answer as to why a name was taken out of my account many weeks after I had control.

 

[pchip]

The thing that bothers me the most is the lack of communication of any kind from Epic after taking the domain from your account - especially after you owning the domain for like 30 days. It appears someone realized their mistake and took the domain back because they could.

You did the right thing filing a complain with ICANN. Hopefully that will bring more transparency to this issue.

From what I've read, It seems that the domain failed to renew because of human intervention at Epic? If that was the situation, IMO, the domain should go back to Brad, the original buyer should get their money back and the original seller should get the money from the original deal (paid by Epic).

Not sure how this would play out legally. Thanks for sharing Brad and hope you get some resolution from this. You certainly didn't do anything wrong by making this public.

 

[FastidiousCat]

Man, I'm so glad I stopped at NamePros today. After getting set up at Sedo, Afternic and Dan, Epik was going to be my next stop to list my domains. I don't know what's going on there but it sounds like they have a lot of problems right now. I'm steering clear of them for the time being. I'll be following this thread. I hope you get your domain back.

 

[Recons.Com]

The fact that they did not issue the refund of no trivial amount, after removing the name without permission/notification of the account owner, and waited for few weeks until it was discovered by Brad, makes everything so much worse!!!

I have 22000 domains with Godaddy. I have no worries because I fully trust them that nothing like that can happen. Imagine otherwise, if I had to a) regularly check my past downloads to current to see if any name disappeared b) regularly check the reversed auction wins (without hitting my account) and checking my credit cards if they "forgot" to return my money.

I stopped buying at Dyna auctions, because I did not like when they refunded me for the undelivered auction with the account credit instead of straightforward card refund and I had to go through the extra motions to get that money. This is, again, way way worse!!!

So,

Error 1: Set an installment escrow without bothering to renew the name that was about to expire

Error 2: Send the name to NameLiquidate (how was this possible if Braden hadn't enabled this option?) and allow it to be won by someone without any red flags, notifications etc.

Error 3: Go and blatantly remove the name from the account after letting it sit there for weeks.

Error 4: Issue no notification about it and hope the owner doesn't notice

Error 5: wait until the owner notices to return his $1k money

Error 6: provide generic BS answer to the support ticket

Error 7: have the outgoing (?) CEO come into the public forum, use the "opportunity" for self-promotion, attack the customer that has been wrongfully treated and offer compensation goodies in the form of paper money that he has no use for.

Did I miss anything? But yes, if we don't count the above, they can absolutely claim to be the swiss bank of domains

 

[bmugford]

So,

Error 1: Set an installment escrow without bothering to renew the name that was about to expire

Error 2: Send the name to NameLiquidate (how was this possible if Braden hadn't enabled this option?) and allow it to be won by someone without any red flags, notifications etc.

Error 3: Go and blatantly remove the name from the account after letting it sit there for weeks.

Error 4: Issue no notification about it and hope the owner doesn't notice

Error 5: wait until the owner notices to return his $1k money

Error 6: provide generic BS answer to the support ticket

Error 7: have the outgoing (?) CEO come into the public forum, use the "opportunity" for self-promotion, attack the customer that has been wrongfully treated and offer compensation goodies in the form of paper money that he has no use for.

Did I miss anything? But yes, if we don't count the above, they can absolutely claim to be the swiss bank of domains

I think that about sums it up.

This is not simply about some "error" or "mistake".

It involves a multi-step process where there are failures at each step.

Brad

 

[carob]

This is not simply about some "error" or "mistake".

It involves a multi-step process where there are failures at each step.

Brad

Simple calculation: would it save money for those responsible to just give Brad 12k?

This fiasco is costing time and money to deal with and from a customer service point of view, it will probably cost Epik over 12k if they stick to their position - they will lose business. The 12k is just a cost of doing business.

Nice opportunity for the new CEO to step in and do the right thing and also promise improvements. Behind the scenes later Epik can argue about who should really bear the costs - Braden, Monster, a rogue employee, or the company. Or some weird insurance claim.

BTW not saying Brad would accept such an offer !

 

[bmugford]

Simple calculation: would it save money for those responsible to just give Brad 12k?

This fiasco is costing time and money to deal with and from a customer service point of view, it will probably cost Epik over 12k if they stick to their position - they will lose business. The 12k is just a cost of doing business.

Nice opportunity for the new CEO to step in an do the right thing and also promise improvements. Behind the scenes later Epik can argue about who should really bear the costs - Braden, Monster, a rogue employee, or the company. Or some weird insurance claim.

BTW not saying Brad would accept such an offer !

As I said earlier in this thread, if Epik wants to reach out to me in actual good faith to discuss a resolution, I am open to it.

So far, they have chosen not to do that.

Brad

 

[Bean]

I just went through this entire thread and it does seem like this was a genuine error.
What boggles my mind however is how utterly unprofessional a prominent company like Epik was in handling their mistake. That they would think it okay to simply remove the domain from the legitimate owner's account without so much as a notification/explanation is absolutely insane.
In my eyes, the proper way to handle this would have been for them to get in touch with Brad the second they realized their mistake. They should have apologized and offered a detailed explanation about what happened and why it happened along with a proposed fair compensation. And that would be even before they do anything with the domain in his account.
It is not possible to guard against errors, even the most well thought out, sophisticated systems are prone to them. Since you can't guarantee an error-free system, being accountable and taking full responsibility for your mistakes is the only way to win trust and build reputation.

 

[tonyk2000]

ICANN obviously cannot order domain transfer back to Brad. They have no such powers. UDRP panel can, appropriate court can, but ICANN cannot. What they can (and likely will) do is to request the full history - all related pushes, transactions, communications, ownership records etc. And inspect it. In some cases they'd publish a public notice on https://www.icann.org/compliance/notices . Since in this case Epik already disclosed their version (too many unintentional errors, but we fixed them all) - ICANN will likely hear the same, and close the ticket as the result. Imo...

 

[Start]

I have 22000 domains with Godaddy. I have no worries because I fully trust them that nothing like that can happen. Imagine otherwise, if I had to a) regularly check my past downloads to current to see if any name disappeared b) regularly check the reversed auction wins (without hitting my account) and checking my credit cards if they "forgot" to return my money.

You may want to look more closely. Like I said above, I got a refund email out of the blue almost a year after I bought a closeout domain at GoDaddy. And I half-think that I actually did have it in my account for the year.

And sometimes for failed auctions/purchases, I get a refund later, but the email only mentions the auction/closeout portion, but not the registration/renewal refund portion. But then I will receive an email about the latter a few days afterward... but sometimes not (this reminds me that I need to check on those refunds).

And Mister Funsky above said he had a domain taken out at GoDaddy weeks after he had possession of it.

But like I wrote in more detail above, I chalk it up to "mistakes happen", and I prefer lower costs over 100% accuracy.

I stopped buying at Dyna auctions, because I did not like when they refunded me for the undelivered auction with the account credit instead of straightforward card refund and I had to go through the extra motions to get that money.

That's a reasonable policy, and there are plenty of people who would prefer Dynadot's method.

For people outside the US, if you pay in US dollars, you get charged for currency conversion... usually up to 3%. So on a $2000 purchase, you lose ~3% on the initial purchase. And then on the refund, you would lose another ~3%. That's a $60 loss just for the refund, and plenty of people would like the option to tell Dynadot if they want it sent back or not.

Even for people in the US, some people might find some other Dynadot auction domain they want to buy instead... and would rather deploy those funds, instead of using new funds and waiting days for the earlier refund.

 

[frank-germany]

As I said earlier in this thread, if Epik wants to reach out to me in actual good faith to discuss a resolution, I am open to it.

So far, they have chosen not to do that.

Brad

I didn't want to read the complete thread:
did epik actually never contact you about that issue?

 

[Start]

Did I miss anything?

Yes:

Error 2: Send the name to NameLiquidate (how was this possible if Braden hadn't enabled this option?) and allow it to be won by someone without any red flags, notifications etc.

The default is that expired Epik domains go to NameLiquidate. There's nothing to "enable", just like I don't "enable" anything at GoDaddy or Dynadot for where my expired domains there go.

And I've seen a domain I let expire go onto NL, so as I wrote on page 8, that's how I could deduce that it was an expired domain situation.

Error 6: provide generic BS answer to the support ticket

See, this is part of the problem:
Brad didn't create a support ticket. He didn't even email Rob, or ask Epik support via webchat, which would provide an immediate response -- maybe not an immediate answer, but he could at least chat with someone about it.

Brad was obviously wronged by Epik here. But I don't think it helped the situation that he apparently only sent Rob a DM on a forum.

Then after seeing a refund, but not waiting more than a few hours for a reply, he went public with his complaint... which predictably, is a magnet for people with an axe to grind, and creates a mob mentality. And leads to this type of conspiracy thinking by some, lol:

Epik didn't communicate well on this issue and obviously should have contacted him earlier. But I think Brad's communication steps were also not ideal.


C'mon people:
If you have a problem at a company (any company), the first step isn't to send a DM to the CEO on a forum (where the recipient may possibly not even visit for days).

Doesn't that sound a bit silly when pointed out like that?

- That can be a supplementary step, but the first step should be to contact their regular support
- And then wait at least 12 hours for them to respond, before complaining publicly
- Then sure, maybe even after they respond, you decide to go public. But then at least you have some basic details in the original post, to prevent outlandish & pointless speculation.

I think that's a fair approach, when dealing with any company.

Realistically, if you want another party to be more conciliatory and make more concessions, it helps to create less hassle for them. Even if the other party is totally at fault for what you experienced, it's just psychology that they are less likely to give remedies if hassles are created.

If that doesn't work, then yeah, maybe you gotta take an aggressive, public approach. Or maybe you simply feel it should be public, but at least wait for their response with some details, so you can actually tell people what happened.

I think that applies when dealing with any company.

 

[NickB]

Yes:




The default is that expired Epik domains go to NameLiquidate. There's nothing to "enable", just like I don't "enable" anything at GoDaddy or Dynadot for where my expired domains there go.

And I've seen a domain I let expire go onto NL, so as I wrote on page 8, that's how I could deduce that it was an expired domain situation.



See, this is part of the problem:
Brad didn't create a support ticket. He didn't even email Rob, or ask Epik support via webchat, which would provide an immediate response -- maybe not an immediate answer, but he could at least chat with someone about it.

Brad was obviously wronged. But I don't think it helped the situation that he apparently only sent Rob a DM on a forum.

Then after seeing a refund, but not waiting more than a few hours for a reply, he went public with his complaint... which predictably, is a magnet for people with an axe to grind, and creates a mob mentality. And leads to this type of conspiracy thinking by some, lol:
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/430/367/007.gif

Epik didn't communicate well on this issue and obviously should have contacted him earlier. But I think Brad's communication steps were also not ideal.


C'mon people:
If you have a problem at a company (any company), the first step isn't to send a DM to the CEO on a forum (where the recipient may possibly not even visit for days).

Doesn't that sound a bit silly when pointed out like that?

- That can be a supplementary step, but the first step should be to contact their regular support
- And then wait at least 12 hours for them to respond, before complaining publicly
- Then sure, maybe even after they respond, you decide to go public. But then at least you have some basic details in the original post, to prevent outlandish & pointless speculation.

I think that's a fair approach, when dealing with any company.

Realistically, if you want another party to be more conciliatory and make more concessions, it helps to create less hassle for them. Even if the other party is totally at fault for what you experienced, it's just psychology that they are less likely to give remedies if hassles are created.

If that doesn't work, then yeah, maybe you gotta take an aggressive, public approach. Or maybe you simply feel it should be public, but at least wait for their response with some details, so you can actually tell people what happened.

I think that applies when dealing with any company.

Didn't communicate well? There was ZERO communication - they stole the domain from his account.....

Plenty of FTSE and Fortune 500 companies get complaints on Social Media which are handled in a professional and courteous manner, it makes no difference where the complaint is raised, it is how it is dealt with that counts.....

You can also raise a grievance on any platform while dealing with the company direct, in this case none of this would of been made public and we would be none the wiser......

I have personally raised/escalated complaints with finance companies and it's only after threatening to complain to the ombudsman or got them involved that the matter was dealt with - more hassle for the company, quicker remedial action for me - so I don't buy that causing more hassle = less remedies......

 

[Start]

Didn't communicate well? There was ZERO communication - they stole the domain from his account.....

"Communicate well" refers to a combination of the earlier lack of communication and the response here.

And "stolen" is an exaggeration - it was returned to the end user who had already started their payments, which is the fairest thing to do.

But they neglected to communicate to Brad and give a prompt refund. However, it's silly and nonsensical to think that they purposely didn't refund it. Neglect/forgetting is different than malice. Intention matters.

In this thread, we also have people who have talked about domains being taken out at Dynadot and GoDaddy, and I had an experience like that via SnapNames.

Mistakes happen, and like I said, I prefer lower costs over 100% accuracy.

Plenty of FTSE and Fortune 500 companies get complaints on Social Media which are handled in a professional and courteous manner, it makes no difference where the complaint is raised, it is how it is dealt with that counts.....

Yes, and I think that's not the right way to initiate a complaint. Seriously, think about it as a business owner: if you and a customer (domain buyer or any customer) have some misunderstanding, do you want them to complain about you on Twitter?

A lot of times (in general, with the overall population), people's complaints are unreasonable too, or they lack full details or haven't thought about why policies are the way they are.

That type of unnecessary negativity is a microcosm for why social media has become so problematic for society.

If people need to complain, they should do it directly first and at least wait a bit, to get a response from the business. Then maybe it deserves to be publicized, but I've never agreed with the "Twitter first" approach.

You can also raise a grievance on any platform while dealing with the company direct, in this case none of this would of been made public and we would be none the wiser......

No, it sounds like Brad would have anyway, but at least then his original post would have more details... which would have prevented a lot of the outlandish and pointless speculation.

Even on this page, after certain things were already explained, we have people making incorrect speculation.

I have personally raised/escalated complaints with finance companies and it's only after threatening to complain to the ombudsman or got them involved that the matter was dealt with - more hassle for the company, quicker remedial action for me - so I don't buy that causing more hassle = less remedies......

Yeah sure, I will also occasionally play hardball with a company, if necessary. But first I talk to them directly, because if it's not a huge corporation where you're just a number, then the people you're dealing with will remember you, and it doesn't help a future business relationship to play hardball.

Again, Epik should have proactively sent the refund and communicated. But from a customer perspective, sending a DM to a CEO on a forum is never step 1. Even out of self-interest, it's not the fastest way to talk to someone.

 

[NickB]

"Communicate well" refers to a combination of the earlier lack of communication and the response here.

And "stolen" is an exaggeration - it was returned to the end user who had already started their payments, which is the fairest thing to do.

But they neglected to communicate to Brad and give a prompt refund. However, it's silly and nonsensical to think that they purposely didn't refund it. Neglect/forgetting is different than malice. Intention matters.

In this thread, we also have people who have talked about domains being taken out at Dynadot and GoDaddy, and I had an experience like that via SnapNames.

Mistakes happen, and like I said, I prefer lower costs over 100% accuracy.



Yes, and I think that's a foolish way to complain. Seriously, think about it as a business owner: if you and a customer (domain buyer or any customer) have some misunderstanding, do you want them to complain about you on Twitter?

A lot of times (in general, with the overall population), people's complaints are unreasonable too, or they lack full details or haven't thought about why policies are the way they are.

That type of unnecessary negativity is why social media has become a cesspool in some ways.

If people need to complain, they should do it directly first and at least wait a bit, to get a response from the business.




No, it sounds like Brad would have anyway, but at least then his original post would have more details... which would have prevented a lot of the outlandish and pointless speculation.

Even on this page, after certain things were already explained, we have people making incorrect speculation.



Yeah sure, I will also occasionally play hardball with a company, if necessary. But first I talk to them directly, because if it's not a huge corporation where you're just a number, then the people you're dealing with will remember you, and it doesn't help a future business relationship to play hardball.

Again, Epik should have proactively sent the refund and communicated. But from a customer perspective, sending a DM to a CEO on a forum is never step 1.

As they did not renew the domain it was no longer that person/company's property - Brad was the rightful owner of the domain, being on a payment plan is a mute point as they longer owned the asset they were paying for.....They should be issued a full refund and Brad should have his asset that he legally paid for transferred back to him.

It's like saying I did not cancel a standing order for an item, resold it and continued paying for it out of my own stupidity.....

As they did not communicate to Brad that they had removed the domain from his account and only responded a month later when he contacted them I would lean heavily towards nefarious intent rather than an oversight.... which is just generic BS term companies use when they have been caught with trousers down.....

A lot of companies fail to deal with complaints when they are brought directly to them - It's amazing how quickly they can get resolved if someone calmly raises the issue on Social Media - Corporate reputation still means a lot to most companies, unlike Epik it seems........who look like they have failed on at least 4 of the below

Edit: I've said my piece on this thread, we can agree to disagree - feel free to respond but I'm just going to continue reading from here on out.......

 

[Start]

As they did not renew the domain it was no longer that person/company's property - Brad was the rightful owner of the domain, being on a payment plan is a mute point as they longer owned the asset they were paying for.....They should be issued a full refund and Brad should have his asset that he legally paid for transferred back to him.

From a perspective of logic and fairness, I think it should stay with the earlier buyer.

A couple of hours ago, I looked-up what the law may say, and in the UK at least, it seems my view is what the law says. But I don't know about the US.

Plus, Epik's Terms & Conditions -- like other companies -- do state that they can cancel an auction purchase at their discretion. They didn't give proper notification to Brad, but still, the potential cancellation is in the Terms.

I would lean heavily towards nefarious intent rather than an oversight.

C'mon, simple logic shows that's absurd. $1000 is nothing in the big picture, in terms of the money they got by forgetting to do the refund.

And if someone nefariously wants to steal a domain for an $11,000 profit, they aren't going to take a a domain from an account where that's the only domain. And to do it nefariously, they would "cover their tracks" by promptly taking the domain out, tell Brad about the removal, and do the $1000 refund.

They wouldn't take the domain out, never expect to refund it or for Brad to notice, and then on top of that, have Braden publicize how he sold the domain. Just LOL at thinking that was some nefarious plan.

This was quite clearly simply a mistake combined with some sort of forgetfulness to contact Brad proactively.

Edit: I've said my piece on this thread, we can agree to disagree - feel free to respond but I'm just going to continue reading from here on out.......

Yeah, I've now spent too much time writing here, and have other things to do today. So good luck to all.

 

[bmugford]

Didn't communicate well? There was ZERO communication - they stole the domain from his account.....

Plenty of FTSE and Fortune 500 companies get complaints on Social Media which are handled in a professional and courteous manner, it makes no difference where the complaint is raised, it is how it is dealt with that counts.....

You can also raise a grievance on any platform while dealing with the company direct, in this case none of this would of been made public and we would be none the wiser......

I have personally raised/escalated complaints with finance companies and it's only after threatening to complain to the ombudsman or got them involved that the matter was dealt with - more hassle for the company, quicker remedial action for me - so I don't buy that causing more hassle = less remedies......

Yeah, that comment is kind of laughable honestly.

Yes, it was me whose communications were not ideal...you know the one who got the domain taken without authorization, notice, or explanation a month after I owned it.

The one who continued to have no communication or refund for an additional almost 2 weeks after the domain disappeared, until I stumbled on it missing.

LOL. Please.

Again, simple request. Can anyone point to a similar situation where a domain was taken without permission or notification a month later in this type of situation?

This did not involve theft. It did not involve an unauthorized sale.

If you take what Epik said at face value, it basically involved the incompetence of a party which did not renew the domain. That party was either Epik or the party buying it on a payment plan.

Either way that is their fault, and I don't believe in a normal situation the domain would be able to be taken back. It was only able to be recovered because Epik had access to take it back. According to Epik, it was some "exotic" deal, that seemed to be a deviation outside the norms.

This is not the same as a domain being renewed before it is moved to your account. I am still waiting on another similar example.

Brad

 

[Start]

Yes, it was me whose communications were not ideal...you know the one who got the domain taken without authorization, notice, or explanation a month after I owned it.

The one who continued to have no communication or refund for an additional almost 2 weeks after he domain disappeared.

I did say this:
"Brad was obviously wronged by Epik here. But I don't think it helped the situation that he apparently only sent Rob a DM on a forum."

Both things can be true. The issue is obviously the fault of Epik and/or Braden, but I'm just saying, I don't think a DM was the right contact method, and I think with any company, people should wait longer for a response.

"Again, Epik should have proactively sent the refund and communicated. But from a customer perspective, sending a DM to a CEO on a forum is never step 1. Even out of self-interest, it's not the fastest way to talk to someone."