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Epik, We have a problem. Domain removed from account without permission.

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I am sure as many of you are aware I have had issues with Epik in the past, but decided to give them a chance when I saw a domain I wanted on Name Liquidate.

I purchased the domain PianoMoving.com on 7/20. It was transferred into my account then.
This was the only domain in my account.

It was in my WHOIS information.
I updated the nameservers.

When I just checked it is magically no longer in my account.
The nameservers were changed.
I received zero contact about the domain being moved.

I have all the receipts -

1.) The purchase/renewal from Epik.
2.) The Paypal charge.
3.) Email of when the domain was moved into my account @ Epik.
4.) Email when the nameservers were updated in early August @ Epik.

I don't see any indication that the domain was removed from my account.
On top of zero communication, there also appears to be nothing under "Outgoing Pushes" or "Task History".

I sent a DM to @Rob Monster about this earlier this morning, but have not received a response yet.

I was just notified I received a refund. I don't want a refund.

I want the domain I won, that was in my account, which I had full control over.
It was removed from my account without permission or even notification.

I do not find this acceptable in any way.

@Epik.com, you have some explaining to do.

Brad
 
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Imo, should Brad hire an attorney John Berryhill - this alone would be sufficient for the registrar to start discussing a settlement :))

These type of things are quite expensive and time consuming to litigate.

Even if you have a legal defense of "Oh, we can do whatever", that is not exactly a strong reputational defense that is likely going to make other people in a relatively small field feel comfortable with you.

Brad
 
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One practical thing I have observed about these kind of "we corrected our mistake" registrar actions is that they wouldn't happen if the domain name were moved to a different registrar. I'm not going back to check the timeline on this one, but one thing to think about as a practical safeguard is that when you purchase a domain name at a registrar-affiliated service of some kind, then move that domain name to another registrar just as soon as you can. Whether that applies here, I don't know. But it is worth keeping in mind, and not just at this registrar. You might think "all sales are final" but the terms are pretty open-ended on that subject.

An example of this sort of thing crossed my desk a while back. My client bought a name at a registrar-affiliated drop auction. As soon as was possible, my client transferred the name to another registrar. The first transfer request was denied by the losing registrar. My client complained to them about the failure, submitted a second transfer request, and it went through. Sometimes, you can simply ask to have a lock removed. After the transfer, the gaining registrar locked the name and said there had been an inquiry about the transfer. Shortly after that, the gaining registrar said everything was fine and removed the lock. Finally, my client received an email from the legal department of the original registrar saying they wanted to "talk about the domain name before pursuing legal action." My client sent me that email and I replied by saying that they could certainly write to me and explain the legal claim to me. The registrar never did and went silent. I eventually got the impression that they were trying fix some customer service snafu at their end - and they would have done so if they were still the registrar.
John,

I appreciate the detailed response.

The entire reason I even noticed the domain missing was because I logged into my account to see if the escrow hold was up so I could transfer it out.

The only way Epik was able to remove the domain without authorization, is because they had access to do it.

Brad
 
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I'm waiting for the check to clear.

While I frequently comment on a variety of legal matters in my spare time, I'm not on call to comment on all or most legal disputes in the industry. Most of these things hinge on "facts" which may or may not be as reported, and usually involve a review of various terms of service, etc.. Additionally, someone might have a dispute in which they might ultimately decide to contact or hire an attorney, so why should I invest the time to disqualify myself by making comments on everything that comes down the pike?

Some general principles applicable here are:

1. Like it or not, "mistake" can be a defense to a contract action. Unilateral mistake is a disfavored defense in contract disputes, but that does not mean that it does not work on sufficient evidence. It looks like the domain name was supposed to be maintained pursuant to another agreement, someone dropped the ball, the domain went into the sales pipeline, and nobody noticed until it was sold to someone else. But, keep a pin on that thought for a moment.

2. The measure of damages in something like this is typically what you paid, not what it is "worth". As with anything, there are exceptions to that, and there is objective evidence of value - in the form of the subsequent sale.

3. This is the interesting one to me - let's talk about who has "owned" this domain name. Since someone mentioned something about ICANN, it is worth reviewing how ICANN sees a domain registration...

The things that a registrar is supposed to do, as far as ICANN is concerned, are defined by the Registrar Accreditation Agreement RAA, which was last revised in 2013. The ICANN RAA is here:

https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/approved-with-specs-2013-09-17-en

ICANN views the registrar as registering domain names at the behest of the "Registered Name Holder". As far as an "account holder" goes, the account holder might, or might not, be the Registered Name Holder. So, merely having a name in one's account, and being the registrant of the domain name can be two different things. This is actually pretty normal when you think about technical, legal, business or other service providers who hold their customer's names, registered to their customer, but in their accounts as administrators.

Looking at the WHOIS history of the domain name, the registrant has been:

Registrant Name: REDACTED FOR PRIVACY (DT)
Registrant Organization: Legal Brand Domains
Registrant Street: 26565 Agoura Road Suite 200
Registrant City: Calabasas
Registrant State/Province: CA
Registrant Postal Code: 91302
Registrant Country: us
Registrant Phone: 18188848075

...and then changed on 6/17/2022, just after expiration, to:

Registrant Name: Privacy Administrator
Registrant Organization: Anonymize, Inc.
Registrant Street: 1100 Bellevue Way NE, Ste 8A-601
Registrant City: Bellevue
Registrant State/Province: WA
Registrant Postal Code: 98004
Registrant Country: US
Registrant Phone: +1.4253668810

Now, to be clear, Anonymize Inc. is, as I understand it, a separate company from Epik the registrar. So, to Epik, the registrant is the entity listed above. That WHOIS information remains consistent since June.

The 2013 RAA includes a "Specification on Privacy and Proxy Registrations". That specification was supposed to expire in 2017 until the conclusion of an ICANN policy group to come up with a privacy/proxy accreditation standard. With the entire policy mess around registrant information generally, the 2013 specification periodically is extended (and was recently given an additional year beyond the extension noted on the page linked above).

But, one of the takeaways is that the registrant of the domain name has been whomever Anonymize Inc. might say it is. In a situation like this, a typical registrar response to someone complaining to ICANN about "my domain name" is that the registrant of the domain name has been (in this instance) Anonymize Inc., so the person submitting the complaint is not and has not been the registrant of the domain name. Certainly, it was never in the registrar's WHOIS data that the name was registered to whomever is making the complaint.

This sort of problem is one of the long list of reasons why privacy services are crap. If you want privacy, form your own corporation, register your names to that corporation (LLC or whatever), and use that. But, no, we have this industry where people take million dollar assets, hand them to a stranger to hold, and say "don't tell anyone its mine." How often do you do that in real life? If something goes wrong, you are complicating the process of saying "it's mine" in the first place.

"Who is the registrant of a domain name" can be something of a slippery question when there is a privacy service involved, and particularly if the privacy service purports to be a different entity than the registrar.

4. At long last, we come to Epik's terms concerning aftermarket transactions. Nameliquidate's "terms" link apparently forwards to the Epik.com general terms, which include such gems as...

"We reserve the right to reject or cancel your After Market Domain Name registration for any reason including, but not limited to, any pricing errors. In the event your After Market Domain Name registration is rejected or cancelled by us, for any reason, we will refund in full the amount of the purchase price for the After Market Domain Name as your sole remedy."

Epik is claiming the reason is there was a mistake. That's well within "any reason". They don't have to explain it in detail to you, but you can spend a lot of money litigating to find out whether they really made one or not. Then we come to:

"IN NO EVENT SHALL EPIK, ITS AFFILIATES, SUBSIDIARIES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES, OR SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE FOR LOST PROFITS OR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SITE, THE SERVICES, OR THIS AGREEMENT (HOWEVER ARISING, INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE). EPIK`S LIABILITY, AND THE LIABILITY OF ITS AFFILIATES, SUBSIDIARIES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES, AND SUPPLIERS, TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTIES IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE IS LIMITED TO THE GREATER OF (A) THE AMOUNT OF FEES YOU HAVE PAID TO US IN THE 12 MONTHS PRIOR TO THE ACTION GIVING RISE TO LIABILITY, AND (B) $100."

So, the first question is, "Are you shooting for the fees or going for the $100?"

Now, of course, whenever these things come up, someone is sure to throw around things like "contract of adhesion", "unconscionable terms", "illusory contract" and so on. But those things are easier said than actually litigated successfully. The last one - saying that it is not a "contract" because there is no real obligation - is easily addressed by the fact that they indeed are obligated to do various things at the risk of your fees or $100.

But let's take unconscionability. You'd be surprised what kinds of awful contracts are held not to be "unconscionable" legally. Is it "unconscionable" for a registrar to limit their liability to $100 when they are dealing with assets that could be worth millions. Well, one answer to that question is to consider that if you are in a business that is essential to the internet, and you are dealing with a million customers at a profit margin of a couple of dollars a piece, to how much potential liability should you reasonably be expected to expose yourself? At $100 a pop, your million customers represent a potential liability of $100 million dollars. That limit looks a lot more reasonable if you are simply looking at both sides of the table.

Now, normally, if you as an individual are concerned about loss of assets, you can find appropriate insurance from a duly-licensed and regulated insurance provider. One of the surprising finds in this thread is that, although you had a domain name and you don't have it any more, registrar revocations are apparently not a domain loss scenario that DNProtect would get excited about. Given that pretty much any and every registrar has similar "we can do what we want with little recourse" policies - and which time and time again we see them do - then it's good to know there is at least one protection vendor who will not cover this sort of scenario.

That's for starters. Can all that be argued against? Sure. But those points are baggage that you have at the starting line of this sort of dispute. The ball does not start mid-field in these kinds of situations, but deep in your own territory. That's all.

There's another thread here in legal issues where someone is going to sue so many people that he wants suggestions on who to include. The probability of an actual lawsuit is very low, and these sorts of registrar disputes - in their infinite variety - is why registrars have very protective terms in the first place. It's a big world and new problems come up all of the time.

But, Keith, in general, I'm much more interested in IP and trademark issues, some transactional issues, and civil procedure issues (how does one file, serve, and move forward with a suit) for recreational kibitzing, because the "I'm upset at some registrar and I'm going to sue them for (whatever)" threads are a dime a dozen. Since I spend my own time commenting on these things, then I pick the ones I find interesting or worthwhile on my own. If I've been tagged once and don't comment, it's probably because (a) I'm on one of my months-long forum diets, or (b) it's just not interesting to me.

The class of "I did X at a registrar and didn't get what I expected/wanted" stuff is more about how a registrar chooses to deal with their customer service issues and does not usually present any fact patterns that change the basic dynamic of "screw you" registration and service contracts.

Definitely sucks. I'd be angry too. As mentioned a couple of times above, sometimes the best thing you can do is make some noise. But as a legal matter, these things aren't usually worth pursuing.

One practical thing I have observed about these kind of "we corrected our mistake" registrar actions is that they wouldn't happen if the domain name were moved to a different registrar. I'm not going back to check the timeline on this one, but one thing to think about as a practical safeguard is that when you purchase a domain name at a registrar-affiliated service of some kind, then move that domain name to another registrar just as soon as you can. Whether that applies here, I don't know. But it is worth keeping in mind, and not just at this registrar. You might think "all sales are final" but the terms are pretty open-ended on that subject.

An example of this sort of thing crossed my desk a while back. My client bought a name at a registrar-affiliated drop auction. As soon as was possible, my client transferred the name to another registrar. The first transfer request was denied by the losing registrar. My client complained to them about the failure, submitted a second transfer request, and it went through. Sometimes, you can simply ask to have a lock removed. After the transfer, the gaining registrar locked the name and said there had been an inquiry about the transfer. Shortly after that, the gaining registrar said everything was fine and removed the lock. Finally, my client received an email from the legal department of the original registrar saying they wanted to "talk about the domain name before pursuing legal action." My client sent me that email and I replied by saying that they could certainly write to me and explain the legal claim to me. The registrar never did and went silent. I eventually got the impression that they were trying fix some customer service snafu at their end - and they would have done so if they were still the registrar.
Wow! Thanks for the lengthy and thorough response!

I think the big question here is whether or not a registrar can pluck a domain out of an account based on their own findings?

As Brad said, epik was only able to remove the domain because they had internal access. If Brad moved this to another registrarโ€ฆ and thatโ€™s the real issue!!!
 
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@bmugford itโ€™s amazing how a simple question canโ€™t be answered with a simple response ๐Ÿคฆโ€โ™‚๏ธ
 
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The entire reason I even noticed the domain missing was because I logged into my account to see if the escrow hold was up so I could transfer it out.

Yep, that's kind of amazing. Normally, one would expect to receive a notice to that effect.

What I would suspect here is that the sales fulfillment engine simply trundled along and transferred the purchased name without really having a check on whether the seller and registrant were identical.

I've seen this sort of thing, or close to it, on other platforms. Someone will buy a domain name that is listed in multiple marketplaces. For whatever reason, a zombie sale listing will continue at the registrar marketplace. The name is purchased and the registrar proceeds to transfer the domain name.

There is some indication this domain name was subject to special handling, and it could simply be that the underlying software simply was not built to support this particular case. So the sale simply proceeded without notice to you.


3.5. Reserved
3.6. Reserved
3.7.5.5 Reserved
3.7.5.6 Reserved


It is unusual to have anything "reserved" in public terms, but this is what we see. What if any of the above "reserved" actually says: "NameLiquidate sales by Braden Pollock to Brad Mugford can be reversed anytime"?

That doesn't mean there are 'secret terms'. Usually things like that happen because the terms have been revised. But, because there are numbered paragraphs, they'd have to change all their form emails etc. if they re-numbered the agreement every time a section was deleted, moved, or what have you. It's sort of like 'this page intentionally left blank' in some documents to signify a page that is intentionally blank. You also see this kind of thing in statutes which have been amended to eliminate sections.


I think the big question here is whether or not a registrar can pluck a domain out of an account based on their own findings?

Yep. Happens all of the time when, for example, everyone concludes that a domain name was stolen. That's the kind of thing @bhartzer does all of the time - work with registrars to resolve stolen name claims.

Oh, one other takeaway from all of this is also pretty basic:

IF YOU ENTER INTO AN N YEAR LEASE OR LEASE/PURCHASE ON A DOMAIN NAME - RENEW IT OUT FOR THOSE N YEARS WHEN YOU MAKE THE DEAL.

This whole sorry episode appears to have arisen from the group efforts of several idiots who were, one way or another, party to a time-structured agreement of some kind.

For example, I frequently hold names in escrow for parties who are carrying out a transaction. If it is, say, a five year lease-to-purchase agreement or something along those lines, then even if there is an early payment option I will typically require SOMEONE to pay five years worth or registration on that name before I take it into escrow.

Relying on "somebody" to pay annual renewals on a domain name that might be in escrow for N years is just asking for this sort of trouble.
 
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Oh, one other takeaway from all of this is also pretty basic:

IF YOU ENTER INTO AN N YEAR LEASE OR LEASE/PURCHASE ON A DOMAIN NAME - RENEW IT OUT FOR THOSE N YEARS WHEN YOU MAKE THE DEAL.

This whole sorry episode appears to have arisen from the group efforts of several idiots who were, one way or another, party to a time-structured agreement of some kind.

For example, I frequently hold names in escrow for parties who are carrying out a transaction. If it is, say, a five year lease-to-purchase agreement or something along those lines, then even if there is an early payment option I will typically require SOMEONE to pay five years worth or registration on that name before I take it into escrow.

Relying on "somebody" to pay annual renewals on a domain name that might be in escrow for N years is just asking for this sort of trouble.

Yes, that make sense.

It really should have been renewed before or when it entered that contract, as it appears to have expired around a month later.

Brad
 
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Yep, that's kind of amazing. Normally, one would expect to receive a notice to that effect.

Yes, to me this is as big of an issue as the unauthorized removal itself.

It reminds me of Office Space where they "fix" the glitch where Milton was fired years early, but he still showed up for work and got a paycheck. They just stopped the paycheck and never told him he was fired to avoid conflict.

The problem is not just that it was removed, it is that it was removed without notice or explanation and no refund was provided until I stumbled on that.

I have never had a domain removed from my account, anywhere, without some type of notice provided.
It is a pretty important thing when you own thousands of domains.

Brad
 
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I felt sympathy to Brad. Recently I can't withdrawal my fund from Epik.com and this issue lasted for a month without process. I feel very disappointed and angry at Epik.com.
 
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sometimes the previous owners of the domains manage to renew the domain late sometimes months after expiry, which is supposedly what the auction lock is all about. It has happened to me before they just remove the name from your account and issue a refund.

I know it sucks but at least they should explain what happened.
 
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sometimes the previous owners of the domains manage to renew the domain late sometimes months after expiry, which is supposedly what the auction lock is all about. It has happened to me before they just remove the name from your account and issue a refund.

I know it sucks but at least they should explain what happened.

Do you have any specific examples you can point to of a registrant simply renewing a domain "months" later and it being returned to them?

Brad
 
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the way they "stuck their hand in your cookie jar" to take the cookie, and didnt tell you about it, is a violation of an agreement/privacy and just lacks human decency.
instead of rectifying it and figuring out how to get the domain name back, then they say "because hes a shareholder we helped him by internally moving the domain" ... how about treating all customers equally and not doing obscure under the table favors for shareholders by breaking into customers accounts and taking their purchased items?
the day they took the domain, where was the email to say "hey there was an error, and we had to remove the domain name." i bet they were hoping you'd never notice their mistake.
then the "well we have insurance so if you sue us, we dont care" comes off as "ill see you in court." what a way to treat customers.

ever since the data breach at epik, they were blacklisted by me. then when you add in the fact that they have the 3rd most expensive renewal price for .com (quite the feat considering there are hundreds/thousands of registrars), missing free features like email forwarding or ssl certificates, and now this ? and this entire time i was sitting here thinking godaddy was a bad registrar for charging $5 more dollars than namecheap to renew.
 
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I just submitted a complaint with ICANN. I am not sure what they will, or even can do.

In summary -

The domain pianomoving.com was removed from my account by Epik.com a month after I became the owner.
It was moved to the current registrant without authorization, notification, explanation, or refund at the time.

An unrequested refund was only provided, without explanation, after I discovered the domain missing.

What was going to happen if I did not notice this? Was Epik ever going to give me notice, explanation, or a refund?

I also pointed to the UDRP panel's ruling in the VOCL.com dispute.

In that case, Epik Inc. had been determined by the panel to have inherent conflicts of interest, provided materially inaccurate information and disclosures regarding domain ownership, and engaged in misconduct.

The panel also called into question the respondent's credibility and goes on to find serial misrepresentations by the respondent.

Please refer to the full findings here -
https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/text.jsp?case=D2021-1050

I believe this is relevant because it is directly related to the credibility of the registrar itself.

I believe what Epik says should not be taken at face value, and what actually happened needs to be investigated further.

When you factor in the timeline and chain of events, I think it is reasonable to come to the conclusion that Epik acted in bad faith by removing the domain without authorization, notification, explanation, or a refund at the time.

Brad
 
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I just submitted a complaint with ICANN. I am not sure what they will, or even can do.

In summary -

The domain pianomoving.com was removed from my account by Epik.com a month after I became the owner.
It was moved to the current registrant without authorization, notification, explanation, or refund at the time.

An unrequested refund was only provided, without explanation, when I discovered the issue much later.

What was going to happen if I did not notice this? Was Epik ever going to give me notice, explanation, or a refund?

I also pointed to the UDRP panel's ruling in the VOCL.com dispute.

In that case, Epik Inc. had been determined by the panel to have inherent conflicts of interest, provided materially inaccurate information and disclosures regarding domain ownership, and engaged in misconduct.

The panel also calls into question the respondent's credibility and goes on to find serial misrepresentations by the respondent.

Please refer to the full findings here -mains/search/text.jsp?case=D2021-1050[/URL]

I believe this is relevant because it is directly related to the credibility of the registrar itself.

I believe what Epik says should be not taken at face value. What actually happened needs to be investigated further.

I donโ€™t think they should be given the benefit of the doubt, because of their past behavior.

When you factor in the timeline and chain of events, I think it is reasonable to come to the conclusion that Epik acted in bad faith by removing the domain without authorization, notification, explanation, of a refund at the time.

Brad

I thought epik gave u refund without asking or chasing after it?
 
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Sh't happens , move on and find another domain .
 
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I thought epik gave u refund without asking or chasing after it?

They provided a refund, without explanation, only after I noticed the domain missing almost (2) weeks after it was removed from my account without notice.

I own thousands of domains, and have used dozens of registrars. I have never had a domain leave my account without notice at any other registrar.

I have no idea what would have happened if I didn't notice the domain missing.

Brad
 
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โ€œEverything that needs to be said has already been said"​

 
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โ€œEverything that needs to be said has already been said"​


Mind your own business and speak for yourself. He is providing an update that is most relevant. Any stakeholder in business understands that a registrar cannot be allowed just to ignore the abuse and hope that it goes away.
 
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This is my business its a open forum . You have all the legal options at hand submit a complaint with ICANN .


โ€œEverything that needs to be said has already been said"​

 
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