Are dashed domains undervalued by domainers?

[TheBaldOne]

In my 10+ years of domaining I have often been mystified by the 'perceived wisdoms' within the domaining community, some had partial truths behind them whilst others obviously were almost totally without foundation and relied solely on repeating it often enough (usually by one or more of the big names in the domaining community) that they became ingrained in domaining lore in much the same way as an an urban myth develops. Today I am going to take on one of these perceived wisdoms, the lack of value of any domain containing a dash or hyphen.

It is evident that all the top domain names are registered in the .com suffix whether they be 2 character domains right through to domains made up of two, three, or even four words. Indeed the top domains are registered in almost all TLD's and ccTLD's. Most of these domains are perceived to have a value greater than the annual registration fee of the domain, yet as soon as a dash (hyphen) is introduced to a domain name it is then considered by many domainers to become almost worthless if not worthless, and this to a great extent is due to someone who I admire as generally talking a great deal of sense about domains, Rick Schwartz.

I have read numerous blogs and posts by Rick Schwartz over the years and although I am not sure it was he who first came up with the phrase 'radio test' the one thing for sure is that his usage of it has made it almost domaining lore when valuing a domain name - and this of course applies to dashed domain names. (I should say here that I use the term 'dash' or 'dashed' in preference to 'hyphen' or 'hyphened' much the same way that people have adapted to using the term 'dot' instead of 'full stop'). The 'radio test' is how people who might HEAR the domain on radio or aurally through some other means understand the address name. The inclusion of a 'dash' in a domain has for years been seen as failing the so-called 'radio test'.

Now there are several things to point out in favour of dashed domains that are generally ignored by many domainers, but due to lack of space per post (and the fact any readers of this might not want to read more than the minimum) I shall just list them.

• Most people are introduced to a website either through search engines or through clicking links in articles or emails.
• Most businesses are small to medium businesses who cannot afford the top dollar premium domains that mainly large conglomerates buy but still want a descriptive domain/s for their business, this applies to businesses throughout the world including a growing number in the USA who are utilising dashed domains.
• Predictive addressing in the address bar means that when a user has visited a site the predictive address is supplied in the address bar, and this includes the 'dash' in the address (I vistit the Cel-Robox site and as soon as I start typing the address the predictive address comes up with Cel-robox.com).
• Owners of non-dashed domains should for defensive reasons alone acquire the dashed version, whilst competitors might want the dashed version to link through to their own site or launch a competing site (here I refer to non-TM domain names).
• In many instances a dashed .com domain name should (IMO) be worth at least the value of the undashed .net domain name.
• Multiple uses of single dashes such as with L-L-L.com or N-N-N.com are easily readable and memorable visually, so again these are valuable domains (perhaps seen by the current uptrend in registrations and snaps occuring). Again these will not be as valuable as a LLL.com or NNN.com but should I think be at least as valuable as the corresponding LLL.net or NNN.net.

Anyone want to make this a discussion?

 

[Kate]

So people should only invest when the sales are reported? Strange suggestion, does that mean that domainers should not invest in what is clearly demonstrable as an undervalued resource? In other words when we find the moon is made of cheese domainers should not register every .com of various types of cheese and moon or even mooncheese.com until somewhere along the line the sales of such are reported?

In fact, you've proven very little so far, because you are so convinced you are right and the others are blind. This is some kind of circular thinking.
Being a domainer is not always about trying to predict the future. What I do is buy names that are already valuable and sought after in the present, to resell them for a profit. I'm not trying to be Nostradamus.
"Who cannnot see the present, cannot read the future".

It is not a hard and fast rule (as I point out) but just a rule of thumb, a guesstimate at best, but your attempt to undermine my post just belittles your arguments as I clearly state that this is not a rule. Though it does seem surprising that the best argument you can come up with is to say that this 'rule of thumb' is a myth and yet you do not say that about dashed domains being worthless.

I have not said that all dashed domains are absolutely worthless. This would be a blanket statement. What I'm saying is that in general they are not a good investment for pure play domaining purposes.

Maybe developers don't mind them, but they are less likely to buy from domainers. Domainers are supposed to sell domain names, not to be domain collectors.

We all know that people use search engines, but by that logic we could argue that domain names do not matter any more. This is not true, we always need to have domains that are fit for print and advertising, and branding.

Here is where I think you lose the debate totally. Your point of view is that, and I quote, "The truth is, most .net domains simply don't have tangible resale value even where the .com equivalent has sold. So 10% of zero is still zero." Hmmm, so only .com's in general have a tangible value according to you - so the vast majority of all we domainers who invest in other suffixes are just throwing money at the wind.

There is a lot more demand for .com domains than .net. And it's quite logical. When an end user is willing to buy a domain at a premium then they usually don't want a second-rate extension. Unless the .net carries excellent value for money, or is the next second best option. I've sold a few .net but still.

I am addressing .net since you brought it to the discussion. Of course, dotcom is not the only valuable extension. I am active in ccTLDs too.
But again, a dotcom being sold does not automatically bestow value to the .net counterpart, be it 10% or 5%. The .net very likely will remain unsold. So there is no point arguing about the relative value of the .net or the hyphenated .com if they are unlikely to get sold.

To an end user, the .net or the hyphenated .com is seldom the first choice. So if I want to maximize the odds of a sale, what I want is to own the first choice. It's just business, not ideology.

 

[garptrader]

A two-word EMD .COM such as

WeddingsDresses
RealEstate
NewYork
IntimateApparel
SanAntonio
PersonalTrainer

could probably be sold for a price which would make it into he top 25 sales of DNJ's weekly report.

Even the equivalent .Net would probably garner active bidding in a Namejet auction.

Put a hyphen between those two words and you have a domain which is much more difficult to sell.

However, if you have a track record of selling a particular type of domain continue doing so. Selling domains is difficult enough without adding in a factor which destroys more than 99% of the value.

 

[little_alan]

In fact, you've proven very little so far, because you are so convinced you are right and the others are blind. This is some kind of circular thinking.

Yes, I agree.

If they were worth more, then clearly they would be bought more. This guy needs to realise this.

Howevevr, I think that they are so much more practical than what they are thought to be (SEO wise)

 

[Kate]

So we are back to square one. How exactly are they undervalued by domainers ?
One thing I know for sure, dashed domains are as old as the WWW. They are not new at all, and everybody is familiar with them. So it's not like a new trend is likely to pop out from nowhere. I am not sure how we can establish they are currently undervalued, unless there is a demonstrable increase in interest from end users, or rising domain sales.

I checked the latest DNJ sales and here's what I found. Last week was unusually good for dashed domains.

c-park.com     $2,395
m-e.com     $5,380
f-z.com     $4,900
S-C.com        $22,500

A bunch of short domains that are know to have some value even in that pattern (L-L), but that are not representative.

Now take any random weekly report, you may not see one single dashed domain.
This is what I found for the previous week:

Faltrad-Shop.de     €2,500 = $2,725     Sedo
Kunden-Begesitern.de     €2,500 = $2,725     Sedo
Steuerberater-Frankfurt.de     €2,500 = $2,725     Sedo

All .de.

Overall there are not many. I would still buy combos that are very strong and obviously desirable even as a second choice, but when dealing with weaker keywords it becomes closer to playing lottery, and it's out of my comfort zone.
One of the few dashed names I bought is global-marketing.com. Uncontended prelease, $69 or something. I don't think I can't go wrong here.

 

[NamePrime]

One of the few dashed names I bought is global-marketing.com. Uncontended prelease, $69 or something. I don't think I can't go wrong here.

I like it Nice catch.

I have a French client about a year ago. He said he doesn't care about dashes. He said it's actually easier to read domains that way.

 

[artstar]

I've regged a few hyphen domains in past years but never had the luk selling any.

I used to use hyphens in 3d related domains as a hyphen is used in 3-d a lot.

Now I have only 3 hyphen domains in force now:

3-DPrinting.xyz

Pin-Yin.co

Pin-Yin.xyz

Not sure if I'll reg too many more but who knows.

 

[BrandingModel.com]

I do believe in future demand potential of (VR) virtual reality domains with-in the next few years using short VR hyphen domains, potentially (Germany?) and numerics (Asia?) and yes they do use the letter V in China with their recent VR start-ups.

I'm not a huge fan of hyphens but I do believe there are opportunities. Numerics were hand registered and I purchased VR-Letter domains recently from another market place...

5-VR.com
6-VR.com
7-VR.com
VR-Q.com
VR-J.com
VR-Y.com
VR-T.com
VR-W.com

9N hyphen numerics below are very speculative but there could be potential with 9N hyphen 888 patterns as they are a lot easier to remember and very brandable with the Asian market in mind. There has been NO sales to date EVER with 9N hyphen domains in any extension so I will give it 5yrs. I will need sales over $450 to make ROI within 5 years otherwise I will let them drop and $450 in the trash..


888-111-888.com
888-222-888.com
888-333-888.com
888-555-888.com
888-666-888.com
888-777-888.com
888-999-888.com
888-999-999.com
888-888-999.com
999-888-888.com

 

[4pm]

ive posted some reg stats for C-C domains here
https://www.namepros.com/threads/c-c-domains.909638/

 

[DnEbook]

A two-word EMD .COM such as

WeddingsDresses
RealEstate
NewYork
IntimateApparel
SanAntonio
PersonalTrainer

could probably be sold for a price which would make it into he top 25 sales of DNJ's weekly report.

Even the equivalent .Net would probably garner active bidding in a Namejet auction.

Put a hyphen between those two words and you have a domain which is much more difficult to sell.

However, if you have a track record of selling a particular type of domain continue doing so. Selling domains is difficult enough without adding in a factor which destroys more than 99% of the value.

I have had white-dress and black-dress for a number of years .... no-ones knocking on my door to buy them

 

[Leopard]

1) Short " -" domains also have chinese end-users. I got excited when i found some and registered:

1. L-LLL.com
2. H-HHH.com
3. F-FFF.com
4. Q-QQQ.com
5. P-PPP.com

Similar end-user domains:
d-ddd.com :Branding and Advertising
g-ggg.com : Advertising company
i-iii.com : LED and Lighting company
k-kkk.com : Movie and Video Portal
o-ooo.com : Design and Product Agency
y-yyy.com : Cash Registers company
a-aaa.com : Charity and NGO
w-www.com : Ecommerce Site for lifestyle Products
6-666.com : Electric vehicles and Segway Portal
7-777.com : Gambling web-site
9-999.com: iOS and Android Mobile App
c-ccc.org : China's Ministry of Commerce Official WebSite

Since only 26 such combinations possible, getting some offers from other domain investors.

2) Also I see quite some hyphens being used in european businesses.

Regards
Leopard

 

[Ali]

I'm not trying to be Nostradamus.

You mean, Namestradamus?

 

[hookbox]

The key is to find domains where the owner of the non-hyphenated dotcom is asking a large amount for it. For instance if Schilling is asking $100,000 for the non-hyphenated version then you have a pretty good shot at selling the hyphenated version for a nice amount.

 

[Recons.Com]

You mean, Namestradamus?

Nostradomain.us )

 

[AndyM]

We like a good "dash" over here in the UK too.

co-opinsurance.co.uk 2,730 USD 2015-07-30 Sedo
act-on.co.uk 9,800 USD 2015-07-22 Sedo
gold-price.co.uk 3,739 USD 2015-03-11 Sedo
camper-van.co.uk 1,080 USD 2015-03-10 Sedo
local-dentist.co.uk 800 USD 2015-03-10 Sedo
tv-licence.co.uk 2,000 USD 2015-02-18 Sedo
e-filing.co.uk 1,620 USD 2014-09-17 Sedo
west-end.co.uk 1,678 USD 2014-05-21 Sedo
blue-group.co.uk 1,151 USD 2014-03-12 Sedo
blue-group.co.uk 1,398 USD 2014-02-27 Sedo

I heard a domain pass the radio test the other day "name hyphen name .co.uk" Although I would put money on some numpty actually typing the word "hyphen" into the search bar!!

 

[Edward Smeu]

Yes, hyphenated domain names are undervalued by domainers big time.

I had a few nice sales with these domains, latest would be video(-)hosting(dot)com , nobody paid even $100 on the forum but Wis()tia wanted that for $1750.

 

[Eckhart]

Even if someone can bring solid arguments that hyphenated domains are undervalued, it doesn't mean the perception will change among domainers. Since this is a market like any other, behavioural economics remains a major factor, so people won't act just because something is logical.

 

[Muhammad R.J]

I have some hyphenated domains only got offer at H-OT.Com

 

[brindle123]

Very under-valued!!!!!!!!!!!!!

L-L.com
L-L-L.com
L--L.com
N-N.com
N-N-N.com
N--N.com
Are short, rare, and easy to remember. There have been many posts of hyphenated domains sales. They sell.
Yes sex.com is better than s-e-x.com but I bet everyone on here would love to have s-e-x in their portfolio.

When the un-hyphenated domain is selling for $xxx,xxx then the hyphenated domain has to have a portion of that value. If the l-l-l is a word like s-e-x or c-a-r then the value is higher than just random letters. Who on this forum can afford a LLL.com or a NNN.com? How many businesses large or small can afford a LLL.com or NNN.com now with prices skyrocketing up. They will continue to rise making them only accessible to the richest companies and people. Plus they have been long gone. More and more lll.com are being developed into sites, thus pulling them off the aftermarket. More companies are popping up everyday that will need a domain. They can't get the LLL and NNN. They will have to turn to the hyphen domains.

People are buying up 6, 7, and 8 number domains. There are so many of them. 1 million six digit NNNNNN.com's compared to 1000 n-n-n.com or just 100 n-n.com or 100 n--n.com. That's a lot of reg. fees and competition for sales. You can't set the price with a million other similar domains out there.
I would take a n-n-n or n--n over any nnnnnn. It looks better and is easier to remember. Buying a domain like 888123888.com over a domain like 1-2-3.com is crazy.

I look at it like cars or real estate. If 123.com is like a Ferrari, then 1-2-3.com is like a corvette. They both have great value. 123.com is like the penthouse, 1-2-3.com is like a nice apt. a couple floors down in the same building. It's not the penthouse but it's still a nice apt.

More to come.

 

[Hybrid Names]

i have one dashed U-S-D dtcom keeping it since last two years and will keep it for next few years

 

[mad409]

I usually only buy with a dash if it's short.

Example: T-V.network is good IMO, just don't get carried away and there is value.

 

[Kate]

Very under-valued!!!!!!!!!!!!!

L-L.com
L-L-L.com
L--L.com
N-N.com
N-N-N.com
N--N.com
Are short, rare, and easy to remember. There have been many posts of hyphenated domains sales. They sell.

You are talking about short domains here. A specific market.
But what about regular like double keywords eg. world-travem.com ?

When the un-hyphenated domain is selling for $xxx,xxx then the hyphenated domain has to have a portion of that value.

Why ? Because domainers said so ? The same argument is used to claim that the .net should be worth 5% or 10% of the .com.

Again, many sales are one of a kind and will not repeat in another extension, or a different pattern. If I own thisthat.com, then I don't really need this-that.com unless it's for brand protection purposes. Many if not most end users don't bother to register the dashed version of their domain names.

Not convinced ? Get a list of sold domain names, and buy all the dashed equivalent that are still available (plenty). Wait, why are they still available if they have value ?

 

[robaireg]

I have 5 of the 100 N--N.com

pm if interested.

_______________

& guess which ones

I'd like to keep 1 maybe 2
- trade the others.

_______________________

also have a few N--L and L--L

 

[briguy]

I have 5 of the 100 N--N.com

I have one also,,so between us we own 6% of the market lol
I like keeping things simple..
My main reason for not acquiring more "dashed" domains is simple.
When on my computer.."bri-guy" (<for discussion sake) is easy to type in..
When on my mobile/cellphone...there are few extra steps to type in "bri-guy" (just try it)

Most internet users are lazy when it come to searches..

 

[brindle123]

You are talking about short domains here. A specific market.
But what about regular like double keywords eg. world-travem.com ?

Yes I was talking about short domains. I think they work best for the dash unless it is two really good keywords. Plus like I said all LLL and NNN have been long gone.Double-keywords if they are good like real-estate.com would be highly sought after by domainers and end users. If the double-keyword domain is poor quality words then I think getting the dash version is a bad investment. Any good two keyword dashed domain is gone.
Real-estate.com was created in 1994 and any end user or domainer would jump at the chance to own it. It would not sell for the same amount as realestate.com but it would not sell for something cheap like $100. Therefore it is worth a portion of what the non-dashed domain is. I'm not saying it is 5% or 10%. That is up to the buyer and seller. Because it is good keywords means that it does have good value.

Domainers and end users say that dashed version of a domain has a % of value of the undashed domain because the domain sales reports says so. Dashed domains do sell. Prove they don't.

Why ? Because domainers said so ? The same argument is used to claim that the .net should be worth 5% or 10% of the .com.

Again, many sales are one of a kind and will not repeat in another extension, or a different pattern. If I own thisthat.com, then I don't really need this-that.com unless it's for brand protection purposes. Many if not most end users don't bother to register the dashed version of their domain names.

Not convinced ? Get a list of sold domain names, and buy all the dashed equivalent that are still available (plenty). Wait, why are they still available if they have value ?

Try to find a GOOD two keyword dashed domain that is avail. like stock-market.com oh wait that has been taken for 10yrs now. Yes you can find some that might be avail. but not two good keywords! Post one up if you find something for reg fees!!!!!! I would love to see what you come up with!

One of the few dashed names I bought is global-marketing.com. Uncontended prelease, $69 or something. I don't think I can't go wrong here.

Why didn't you buy globalmarketing.com? I know why....because it wasn't available and you would have paid a good amount for it in the aftermarket. Why would you buy the dashed version? Because it was available in the aftermarket for $69 which wasn't reg fee! So you paid a % of what the undashed version would go for. Someone bought it before you or it wouldn't be in the aftermarket. Therefore someone else also thought it had value. What is that value?? That is between you(seller) and the buyer. Would you sell it for what you paid? Do you think it is worth more than you paid? How much more. What %?

I don't like the nn-n or l-ll unless they "look" good like repeating numbers and letters. N-N-N and L-L-L "look" good and are easy to remember. The dash is in the same line as the numbers so it makes it better. Typing it into a phone is diff. but you can use voice commands or bookmarks.

NNNN.coms were undervalued and now look at them. When the price of NNN.com went up that brought the value and prices of NNNN.com up along with them!!!

I'm sticking with the short dash domains unless Kate posts up some good avail two keyword dashed domains.
dash=undervalued.

 

[JacobVR]

In my opinion the most of us are perfectionists! But people don't know about this business. To them, a domain with a dash or not is almost the same and the most of people don't care.