Vegan Debate

[En]

Do we have any vegans at NamePros?

Anyone want to debate why they believe they have the right to enslave, manipulate, force, bully into submission, and send innocent gentle animals to a slaughterhouse full of uneducated employees that have a career in mass murder?

 

[Dondomainer]

but I was born in germany which happens not to be a poor country
so I had the priviledge to think about that matter a lot


I hate the fact that I do still eat animals
that had a bad life
as it takes a lot of effort / time if I would avoid it totally

the reason is that its not supported by the society in such a manner
that it would be a normal procedure

so the first thing to be changed is the public awareness
in order to create a general mood that would make it normal
to respect other living creatures the way they deserve it

Again, born in anywhere, or in your case, a rich country does not make you more prepared to decide what is right or not right for anyone, in fact, from your comfortable chair you may have a very short vision of reality, circumstances and an infinite number of factors of many people, for example, hunger.

I was born in a country torn apart by communism and dictatorship, Luckily, my family is half French, but I knew hunger, and all these circumstances

 

[carob]

the definition of a product being vegetarian or non vegetarian in Jain philosophy is whether it leads to death of a being or not.

Milk products does not lead to death of the animal, and therefore its considered vegetarian.

Interesting point because a lot of what we are talking about here is "industrial agriculture" - industrial animals do not live or breed in the wild, but in factory conditions. And if their offspring are the wrong sex they are promptly killed.

Another effect of animal agriculture is to deprive humans of food because it is so inefficient - food is given to unnecessary animals to fatten them up for humans, so other humans miss that food and go hungry or starve. And addtional C02 emissions are created.

So animal agriculture poses a moral dilemma not just about killing animals, but also killing people.

 

[frank-germany]

Again, born in anywhere, or in your case, a rich country does not make you more prepared to decide what is right or not right for anyone, in fact, from your comfortable chair you may have a very short vision of reality, circumstances and an infinite number of factors of many people, for example, hunger.

I was born in a country torn apart by communism and dictatorship, Luckily, my family is half French, but I knew hunger, and all these circumstances

sorry,

but I don't think
any of the vegetarian / vegan supporters here
would condemn somebody who eats whatever is availabe
to be able to survive in an emergency situation

I don't

 

[420domainer]

"There are as many creatures on your body as there are people on Earth."

If you think you aren't killing living things all day long, you're nuts. Just to put it in perspective, there are thousands of mites living just in your eyebrows alone. You can be munching a carrot in the shower feeling great and yet be drowning hundreds of live beings and not even know it!

So if life requires death, no matter what you eat, then maybe this argument is not about what you think it is about. Maybe we are all just assholes looking to point out why other people should be our type of asshole and not theirs.

 

[420domainer]

sorry,

but I don't think
any of the vegetarian / vegan supporters here
would condemn somebody who eats whatever is availabe
to be able to survive in an emergency situation

I don't

That's a fantastic point-

Would the vegetarians/vegans posting here choose to starve to death if there was nothing to eat but meat? Is veganism a choice because it can be a choice? Would vegans actually choose suicide over meat eating?

Very curious to know how vegans feel about this.

 

[Haris]

in india people used to not eat cows as they were regarded as holy
but they are still around there

so I dare to say
that your future view
is more or less very unlikely

There are a lot of cow/meat eaters in india,.

 

[Haris]

"There are as many creatures on your body as there are people on Earth."

If you think you aren't killing living things all day long, you're nuts. Just to put it in perspective, there are thousands of mites living just in your eyebrows alone. You can be munching a carrot in the shower feeling great and yet be drowning hundreds of live beings and not even know it!

So if life requires death, no matter what you eat, then maybe this argument is not about what you think it is about. Maybe we are all just assholes looking to point out why other people should be our type of a*hole and not theirs.

Great point.

 

[420domainer]

Just got down reading about the Donner party. Thanks alot guys, this is exactly what I wanted to be doing today!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donner_Party

(veganism vs. cannabalism- will it be the next NP debate?)

 

[JB Lions]

Just got down reading about the Donner party. Thanks alot guys, this is exactly what I wanted to be doing today!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donner_Party

(veganism vs. cannabalism- will it be the next NP debate?)

Pretty good movie out there on this event - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Andes_flight_disaster

When it comes down to it, if it's a do this or die situation, most people people will "do this", survival instincts kick in.

If it makes people fell better, go the Buddhist route, where the dead body is just an empty vessel/meat. Remembering seeing this video awhile back, you can search for this title on YouTube, not for the faint at heart. Apparently ground is too hard to bury people in, so monks help the buzzards out-
Buddhist People after death doing with humans body!

 

[frank-germany]

If you think you aren't killing living things all day long, you're nuts. Just to put it in perspective, there are thousands of mites living just in your eyebrows alone.

there are billions of bacteria in your colon

they are eating you
obviously no vegaterians

thats really not the point here


for me its about :
torturing sensible inteligent creatures for as long as they live
and then kill them more or less fast and "painless"
-actually they are very much afraid and feel fear as much as you would-
and then eat them
without urge and without having no alternatives
for the short joy of " but I like the taste "
which I think is disgusting

 

[Haris]

"A nociceptor is a sensory nerve cell that responds to damaging or potentially damaging stimuli by sending signals to the spinal cord and brain. This process, called nociception, usually causes the physical sensation of pain in sentient beings"

When the veins/arteries/whatever in the neck get cut by a knife (animal gets slaughtered), the body can no longer feel pain because the pain signals no longer reach the brain.

We have been told that we must cut those veins and arteries in the neck fast and with a sharp knife so that the animals don't feel much pain. That's the right way to slaughter an animal. But many companies use machines to kill animals which not only hurts the animals but also mixes the meat with excrement, which I don't support at all.

I also want to let you know that I and every sane person whether vegan/vegetarian or not will never support torture of animals during their lives nor at the time of their death.

 

[JB Lions]

there are billions of bacteria in your colon

they are eating you
obviously no vegaterians

thats really not the point here


for me its about :
torturing sensible inteligent creatures for as long as they live
and then kill them more or less fast and "painless"
-actually they are very much afraid and feel fear as much as you would-
and then eat them
without urge and without having no alternatives
for the short joy of " but I like the taste "
which I think is disgusting

Stop eating chicken then. Don't they have alternatives that taste like chicken. You are a meat eater, not a vegetarian or vegan.

 

[frank-germany]

When the veins/arteries/whatever in the neck get cut by a knife (animal gets slaughtered), the body can no longer feel pain because the pain signals no longer reach the brain.

I do not know where you life
but here in germany
animals are put on trucks
and driven to to the slaughterhouses

then they wait in line
and hear and smell the fear of the other animals

they may not feel the pain of the cut

but they feel fear


and they feel fear pain
as they are treated like furnitures while being transported

 

[frank-germany]

Stop eating chicken then. Don't they have alternatives that taste like chicken. You are a meat eater, not a vegetarian or vegan.

yes you are right
I should not eat chicken either

but no matter how you put it
I am a vegetarian

 

[james haw]

in india people used to not eat cows as they were regarded as holy
but they are still around there

so I dare to say
that your future view
is more or less very unlikely

So, we should all stop eating meat and worship the animals? Is that an argument of some kind?

And India is far from the only country to worship such animals. It's just a culture thing. The French eat horse, English do not. So myself being English, do I therefore consider it wrong of the French to eat horse? Of course not, because I have an open mind.





Are you vegetarian/vegan, for the love of animals? No worries
However, in line with how Priyank put it:

Milk products does not lead to death of the animal, and therefore its considered vegetarian.

Do you eat yoghurt, or drink milk? That's ok because an animal is not slaughtered right?

At least animals being slaughtered die in a min or so. Those poor cows above, well, their lives are not so rosy for months/years eh?

Next time you drink your tea or coffee, or glass of milk, or eat your yoghurt, or slurp on that self righteous smoothie instead of your beef burger, think of all those poor cows, crammed together with machines draining them dry all day!


Sorry to be an arse, but the world is bigger with more grey areas than you are willing to see.

I welcome people who make life choices which benefit the greater good. I try always to source good meat where the animals have been treat well, eat free range eggs etc etc. But in this world, it's impossible to not do, eat, or wear something or use some service which has not been created via some terrible means.

 

[ecalc]

the definition of a product being vegetarian or non vegetarian in Jain philosophy is whether it leads to death of a being or not. Milk products does not lead to death of the animal, and therefore its considered vegetarian.

WEST HOLLYWOOD (AP) -- LAPD arrested Leonardo DiCrapio and charged him with aggravated A&B after a scuffle at a local vegetarian supper club late last night. Mr. DiCrapio was dining with friends when someone in his party smelled grilled meat marinated in garlic and rosemary. They quickly spotted fellow celebrity Shawn Penn and associates seated nearby gnawing sans utensils on a butterflied leg of lamb the size of a Chevy small block. Mr. Penn explained between sips of Ouzo that the donor sheep was alive and well after suffering a broken leg and life saving amputation, punctuating his comments with: “Nothing died so I’m still a vegetarian you losers.” Darrell Hanna, passing by outside, overheard Penn, raced in and dove into the lamb head first screaming: “I haven’t had a square meal in 30 years!” The board of health quickly shuttered the building and transported all patrons to local hospitals for olfactory treatment and PTSD counseling.

 

[frank-germany]

So, we should all stop eating meat and worship the animals? Is that an argument of some kind?

feeling their pain
and respecting them as beeings
and treating them in a way
so if we eat them
they at least have a good life
until their are killed

is a realistic and human aim

and is not worshipping

 

[james haw]

In terms of us obtaining something which was created in some way via mistreatment, such as inhumane cattle treatment for us to eat meat, surely the same morals and care is extended to humans? So, what about slave labour? We ALL do something every day that is linked to it.

What about homeless people in the very same cities where you and your friends are getting drunk, or you and your partner enjoying a meal in your warm cosy house. Right next to someone dying in the streets from malnutrition and hypothermia.

As a vegan/vegetarian saving the animals, what are you doing about those poor humans?

You spend you money on unnecessary things - sweets, clothes you didn't really need, some treat desert, that nice big new TV even though the old one wasn't terrible.
Someone somewhere is suffering and starving to death while you enjoy that TV! Is that ok then? Someone likely suffered FOR you to enjoy that TV via slave labour to make it! Is it ok for people to suffer for the things you do and use, as long as cattle are not being killed inhumanely?

• Don't wear most high street clothes or shoes as they were likely put together by some poor barely paid overseas kids or low paid workers somewhere.

• Sat at your PC/Laptop reading this? Slave labour probably made it. Human cruelty is just as bad as animal cruelty right? So, you will sell your PC right? Of course you will.

• Drive a car, or even a bicycle? Go see how your rubber gets obtained before it becomes your tyre!

• Enjoying your vegetables instead of meat? Of course. And all those workers picking them are paid so much they all live in mansions. Wait, no, I got that wrong. They get paid less than enough to live on, to pay for their tiny hut with no toilet, and live in severe poverty called slave labour!

My original point stands - about if we all stopped eating meat there'd be no cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, etc. Not everywhere is like India, most countries only (sadly) care about their income, not treat it as sacred.

So, they would not exist if it weren't for meat eaters. Do you want to thank me for that, for giving them a life? Or...debate some more?

Before you debate some more...Would you never buy a PC or laptop again knowing it was made via slave labour? Or, like meat eaters, do you just turn a blind eye and hope (sincerely) that the powers that be do something about it!

 

[frank-germany]

But in this world, it's impossible to not do, eat, or wear something or use some service which has not been created via some terrible means.

you are right

but I don't want to forget that is not the optimal situation
and I will take any chance to change it to the better

 

[james haw]

you are right

but I don't want to forget that is not the optimal situation
and I will take any chance to change it to the better

Fine, but my point is essentially that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones