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TM vs. accident lawyer? Free?

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WhoaDomain.com

WhoaDomain.comTop Member
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Sorry for bad title but wanted to ask if like car accident lawyers. Do any TM lawyers work for free until they win your case? Like accident lawyers?

If not I don't see why not when I'm sure most urdp cases end up being thrown out.

I feel there's an opportunity after that to flip things around and Sue the complainant for slander because the complainant accused the domainer of malicious intent.

Even if the domain points to a blank page?

If this precedent ever happened where a urdp "accuser" loses and then was successfully sued and beaten.

This might prevent future urdp's.

What do you think?

As it stands urdp's are rampant because they lose nothing. No risk for them. It is a form of bullying.

They can go after a domainer for simply having their mark in one word or multi-word domain even if it's blank or parked with ads that have nothing to do with their trademark. And if you don't have money to hire a lawyer your only option is to handover your domain?

I think there is money to be made in defending a domainer and then going after the urdp accuser for libel or slander.

Of course the tm lawyer must first be sure he or she can win the urdp.
 
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I'd like to verbally say thank you Kate for that info.

But from the looks of it the lawyers representing the defendants in the urdp were not "we only get paid if we win". I'm sure they were paid upfront.

I wonder if after paying upfront could a client ask to add this amount to the damages list?

I would guess that most lawyers would have to be confident before taking on such a case.
 
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NoDomainNoFee.com may worth registering :xf.smile:
 
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One thing to keep in mind: complainants in UDRP cases are often foreign.
You could sue them in your home country (eg USA) but enforcing the ruling can be difficult.
Or you sue them in their own country. But I doubt a lawyer is going to work for free for a foreigner, even if the case looks easy.
 
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This whole URDP TM crap is just ridiculous.

I can understand if the domainer decided to develop the offending domain in the same Goods and Services that the TM holder has registered.

but even Domains that point to parking pages with ads that have nothing to even do with the Goods and Services of the TM holder?

or even Domains that point to blank pages?

These domains are at risk for URDP?

I mean I get it. Lawyers only get paid when they can get paid for their TIME. so it's in their best interest to monitor domain registrations daily or weekly how else are they going to get paid?

at the prices these lawyers charge big corps?

compared to a simple email they send out plus snail mail?

these URDP lawyers are going straight to the bank.

and at the expense of the lowly domainer's peace of mind.

I admit some URDP's have merit but most? it's just greed.

Are there more incidences where the URDP complainant regretted trying to URDP a domainer?

I think that info would be useful to all. Thanks.

doesn't seem to by much only two?
 
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You can represent yourself as the respondent in a UDRP for $0, unless the complainant wants one panelist and you want 3 panelists to decide your case. I wouldn't recommend this unless you know how to respond to your case intelligently by citing similar case law that proves you haven't registered the disputed domain in bad faith. If you have the time and the knowledge, believe you have not registered the name in bad faith you can easily file your own response to a UDRP, but your response usually must be filed within 20 days. It's really not rocket science, but a good attorney is always helpful when in doubt or the name is of high value! I believe a response should almost always be filed unless it's a blatant trademark infringment.
 
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Thanks TheDot.shop. can we please pm?
 
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Sorry for bad title but wanted to ask if like car accident lawyers. Do any TM lawyers work for free until they win your case? Like accident lawyers?

If not I don't see why not when I'm sure most urdp cases end up being thrown out.

First off "most udrp cases" do not end up "being thrown out". Complainants win 80% of the time. Of course, that's because in most instances, there is actual cybersquatting going on, and it's not as if they are filed at random.

But you seem not to understand how personal injury lawyers work. They do not work for "free", but for a percentage of the settlement reached with the defendant's insurance company (or for a percentage of the judgment if the case goes to court, which it virtually never does). It's outstandingly simple work, given that most insurance companies have more or less "standard" values that they assign to various types of injuries.

In assessing your case, a personal injury attorney is going to be interested in two things - (1) "is it obvious the other party was at fault" and (2) "what is the limit on the insurance policy of the defendant". In car accidents, slip and falls at retail establishments, and so on, the insured party generally subrogates their claim to the insurance company, which has full settlement authority over the matter, so it's a simple negotiation between the plaintiff's attorney who knows pretty much what the insurance company is going to pay in the first place, and the insurance company, which also knows pretty much what it is going to pay.

It's also "local" work. I'm a lawyer in Pennsylvania. If you have a car accident in Pennsylvania, then you and the person who hit you were also in Pennsylvania at the same place and time, obviously. So, any legal claim over the accident is going to go to court in Pennsylvania.

In a car accident, the injured party is the one making the claim, and the insurance company is the one defending the claim. Do you see any lawyers advertising "I will defend your case, and you pay nothing unless you win?" No. Nobody does that. You are comparing apples and oranges both in terms of "what's on the table" and the relative posture of personal injury claimants and UDRP recipients.

Well, duh, of course not, because there is nothing to "win" in a defense of a personal injury claim. "Winning" a lawsuit defense simply means that you don't have to pay the plaintiff.

Likewise, in a UDRP defense, there is no monetary award available to anyone in the first place. If you win a UDRP, you get to keep your domain name. It's not as if there is any damage award to split with the lawyer.
 
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First off "most udrp cases" do not end up "being thrown out". Complainants win 80% of the time. Of course, that's because in most instances, there is actual cybersquatting going on, and it's not as if they are filed at random.

But you seem not to understand how personal injury lawyers work. They do not work for "free", but for a percentage of the settlement reached with the defendant's insurance company (or for a percentage of the judgment if the case goes to court, which it virtually never does). It's outstandingly simple work, given that most insurance companies have more or less "standard" values that they assign to various types of injuries.

In assessing your case, a personal injury attorney is going to be interested in two things - (1) "is it obvious the other party was at fault" and (2) "what is the limit on the insurance policy of the defendant". In car accidents, slip and falls at retail establishments, and so on, the insured party generally subrogates their claim to the insurance company, which has full settlement authority over the matter, so it's a simple negotiation between the plaintiff's attorney who knows pretty much what the insurance company is going to pay in the first place, and the insurance company, which also knows pretty much what it is going to pay.

It's also "local" work. I'm a lawyer in Pennsylvania. If you have a car accident in Pennsylvania, then you and the person who hit you were also in Pennsylvania at the same place and time, obviously. So, any legal claim over the accident is going to go to court in Pennsylvania.

In a car accident, the injured party is the one making the claim, and the insurance company is the one defending the claim. Do you see any lawyers advertising "I will defend your case, and you pay nothing unless you win?" No. Nobody does that. You are comparing apples and oranges both in terms of "what's on the table" and the relative posture of personal injury claimants and UDRP recipients.

Well, duh, of course not, because there is nothing to "win" in a defense of a personal injury claim. "Winning" a lawsuit defense simply means that you don't have to pay the plaintiff.

Likewise, in a UDRP defense, there is no monetary award available to anyone in the first place. If you win a UDRP, you get to keep your domain name. It's not as if there is any damage award to split with the lawyer.


Lol thanks for the detailed response much appreciated .

Obviously I was not trying to imply that lawyers would work for free.

What I meant was the "meat" on the bones would not be defending a domainer in a urdp case but but to go after the urdp complainant for even start urdp case against a domain that maybe is generic enough to be owned by the domainer.

I understand the money for accident lawyers comes from the insurance . As someone whole has had several accident cases I for one know this all too well.

So trust me I'm familiar.

So I guess I was unclear in my post.

I'm talking about a lawyer who would defend a urdp case that he or she sees is totally baseless. And is confident to go after the urdp complainant for damages and the lawyer gets a percentage of the winning of such a case.

I don't know what type of case something like this would be called?

Countersuit?
Slander?
Libel?

Because these urdp's do blatantly say in their wording that the domainer registered domains with malicious intent.

Although I agree 80% of which ARE obvious. 20% aren't.

And since you mentioned cybersquatting?

Parked domains?
What about domains that redirect to blank pages?

What about point the offending domain to a business containing the offending mark and that business is using that mark for goods and services not related to any current trademarks.

Is that a way out? Until you sell?

I've read some domainers on NP mention their domains that had received C&D 's and still own them. Is this luck?

What's their secret?

Guess it doesn't matter really. All a crap shoot.

These companies are large enough they can do whatever they want.

But there has to be some immediate prevention of a URDP or are domainers really just paying Chicken with TM holders .

I was always under the impression that simply pointing to a blank page or to content unrelated to the TM holders goods and services but now I'm not so sure.

I guess that's why TM defense lawyers have a market.
 
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I'm talking about a lawyer who would defend a urdp case that he or she sees is totally baseless.

I've done cases for cheap or free in very limited situations. I've also taken cases on a "I'll pay you what I can, when I can" basis from people I never heard from again after winning the case. So call me jaded, but I like to know up front if I'm going to be stiffed.

But, you are really missing the dynamics here. In general, there is very little contingent fee litigation in business matters. The proposition here is that someone should spend their time for free, so that you can make money as opposed to "get on with your life after a debilitating injury" in situations where damages are readily calculable in terms of medical expenses, lost wages, continued disability and pain, etc.. Personal injury litigation works on this basis because you have (a) someone who was demonstrably injured, (b) someone who is clearly at fault, and (c) all relevant events occurring in the same jurisdiction.

Let's take a typical situation. Say you are located in Mexico, your domain name is registered with a registrar in Australia, and you have a UDRP complaint from someone in Europe. And let's say it is a totally ridiculous case which you hire me to defend and win on this "you'll get paid after you do the UDRP, and then file a lawsuit somewhere" basis. I'm a US lawyer, and the UDRP didn't have anything to do with anyone in the US, so obviously I'm not going to be able to file a suit in Mexico, Australia or Europe without hiring another local attorney in one of those places - and that attorney is going to want to get paid.

Or let's take a simpler situation - you are in the US, your registrar is in the US, and your complainant is in Europe. I take the UDRP and win it. That doesn't somehow give you an automatic right to sue the complainant for much of anything in the US in all instances, and in the situations where that has been tried, the first thing the complainant does is challenge jurisdiction of the US court, because the UDRP admission to "Mutual Jurisdiction" is worded to include an admission to jurisdiction in the event the losing respondent wants to contest the outcome.

Can you sue a UDRP complainant for something? Yes, sometimes. I've represented, and currently represent parties doing precisely that. But only sometimes and only in the right set of circumstances. There have also been situations where after a reverse hi-jacking decision, the threat of a lawsuit has been enough to obtain a settlement from the complainant. Those are, in general, confidential, and so it is something that you and others never hear about.

In the absolute simplest type of situation - a US domain registrant, a US registrar and a US trademark claimant - the first thing that is going to happen is that the complainant, along with their reply to the suit, is going to include counterclaims against you to the tune of $100,000 under the US cybersquatting law. Their claim on that point might not be the best, but you are going to also have to defend the counterclaim in the course of proceeding with your claim.

Again, contrasting that with the car accident situation, the guy who ran the red light and hit your car doesn't have anything to sue you for - it's purely a matter of liability to a calculable amount having been established, and negotiating the compensation due from the other guy's insurance company, which solely cares about the numbers, under the threat of taking it to court.

One ride I've been taken on, and won't do again, is a UDRP defense on the proposition that the complainant will want the name, and that my fee would be taken from whatever might be negotiated after winning the UDRP. Done that several times. Won't do it again. Each time, except once, after winning the UDRP, the clients decided their names were worth utterly unrealistic figures. I can't, as a matter of principle, decide for other people what they want - only they can do that. In the other instance, the client went ahead and sold the name to the complainant later on anyway. That person is located in another country, and if you know a lawyer in that country who takes breach of contract cases on contingency, then let me know, because the cost of going after someone halfway around the world for a couple of thousand dollars is more than the value of the recovery.

Same thing with the "I'll pay half now and the other half if you win" type arrangements. That simply translates to "I'm going to stiff you for the other half and there's not much you can do about it."
 
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I guess that's why TM defense lawyers have a market.

It's not as if there is some set of "TM complaint lawyers" and "TM defense lawyers". Most trademark cases have a trademark lawyer on both sides of the dispute. The reason why there are lawyers with a "market" in any business is because disputes arise. No business is immune from that. I assume my clients are in the business of making money, and my clients have made hundreds of millions over the years - certainly much more than the cost of dealing with the types of legal disputes which are ordinary in the domain business. If I primarily worked for, say, toy manufacturers, then I'd probably be in the "market" for product liability defense. If i worked for doctors, then I'd be in the "market" for medical malpractice defense.

It's not as if there is anything peculiar about the fact that any type of business attracts its particular type of common legal issues. But, for some reason, some people in the domain industry believe it's a crime against humanity of some kind. Try running a child care business sometime, and wait until the first little darling falls down while playing and breaks a finger.

If the cost of defending a domain name is worth more than the domain name, or worth more than the secondary reasons for defending it (i.e. to protect the rest of one's portfolio against future attacks premised on an earlier loss), then one needs to make some economically rational decisions.
 
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Wow that was very informative and for that I thank you. I'm sure you are a busy person too busy to reply so thoroughly to some obscure post on a forum. Lol but I'm sure we are all the better for it so thanks for that.


I've made my decision already. That's a couple of bucks down the drain. Lol Thanks.
 
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I'm sure you are a busy person too busy to reply so thoroughly to some obscure post on a forum

It's probably more efficient than replying to some of the strange emails I get.

I actually sometimes have people who want help with a legal defense, and don't even identify themselves.
 
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