PayPal dispute - What do I do ethically?

[samuelhr]

Hi,

A few weeks ago I listed a website I built for sale on a forum, the site was entirely custom programmed, the sale included 6 domains, the actual site and I also offered to perform any modifications, within reason, when requested.

I found a buyer, received the payment via paypal ($xxx) and started to transfer everything. The domains were: 4 x .net, 1 x .li and 1x .co.uk. the .net's and .li were with moniker. I pushed them all at the same time, however there was a problem transferring the .li, so I contacted moniker support - still awaiting a reply - and the same happened with the .co.uk, so the buyer has 4 out of the 6 domains.

After this I sent the actual site, I zipped up the entire site and then sent it, I helped the buyer install it and configure it. At this point the buyer has 4 out of the 6 domains and the entire script.

The buyer then requests I modify it, as agreed, so I ask what he wants and he explains, what he requested was basically for the entire site to be rewritten, this was well over 20 hours of work, however not to disappoint I agreed.

I had at no point expected this amount of work, I had other projects on which meant I was working through it slowly, an hour or two a day however it was getting done. After a couple of days the buyer opens a paypal dispute claiming I haven't delivered, I repeatedly explain that the work is taking time due to the amount of changes he requested and he continues to complain. After a bit of back and forth he decides to escalate the claim to Paypal.

I am now in the situation where: He has 4 out of the 6 domains, he has the original script and it's all set up + I've spent around 15 hours modifying the site to his new specifications.

What are the chances of paypal deciding in the buyers favour and me losing the domains and site? Should I stop the work and cancel the final 2 transfers of domains and put this down to being a loss, or can I claim against him? Is it morally wrong for me, if I win the dispute, to tell him I'm no longer doing the work and he can keep what he has already?

sorry if this is the wrong section

 

[John Baron]

not a pleasant thing, in my experience with paypal in a lot of hard to call cases like this, which is hard for them to judge they will more often go with the buyer and give him a refund
in your case most of the chances in my openion, that they will give a full refund to the buyer, ,
learn from it for next time,be more clear on your listing about the time table and make everything very clear
then when something like this happen, paypal can see it was all in the agreement
also every business have 5%-10% rate of refunds and there is nothing we can do about it so dont take it too hard
i still hope for you that this thing will resolve on the best side for you and the buyer
good luck !

 

[Semtex]

I would say your chances of winning are pretty slim. Paypal protects the buyer at all costs and rarely cares about what the seller has to say. Usually, unless the seller has proof of the transaction happening and being finished, Paypal will side with the buyer 9/10. Even if you withdraw the money into an account, Paypal will negative your account with them, so you can no longer use that account. I would advise in sending them an email with a detailed list of what you are doing to the site and why it is taking so long. Maybe you will find someone who can give you time to finish the site, before they wreak havoc on your account.

 

[Dean]

Just say it was an intangible item and you automatically win since paypal dont offer protection to buyers if its an intangible item. All you have to say in the dispute is intangible item and say that it was electronically delivered.

 

[samuelhr]

How would I inform paypal that the item is intangible? The dispute has been "escalated" and I see no form for sending information.

 

[Morph]

Name - and - shame

 

[YAYnames.com]

Name - and - shame

Agreed. Warn others about this miscreant by naming him/her.

 

[Saas]

PayPal is the worst way to do business online. They never back the seller. In the future, you will know not to use them.

 

[DN BROKER]

Just say it was an intangible item and you automatically win since paypal dont offer protection to buyers if its an intangible item. All you have to say in the dispute is intangible item and say that it was electronically delivered.

Paypal will do nothing in this case but favour you! since it involved domains and a site... intangible items are not refundable

you have nothing to worry about, the best thing to do now, is expose the con artist to our community so we dont fall for his trap!

 

[John Baron]

Paypal will do nothing in this case but favour you! since it involved domains and a site... intangible items are not refundable

you have nothing to worry about, the best thing to do now, is expose the con artist to our community so we dont fall for his trap!

i disagree . i had a case very smiler to this one , and it was too hard for paypal to call on it, so they just refund the buyer.
the domain is not the issue in this case

 

[DN BROKER]

i disagree . i had a case very smiler to this one , and it was too hard for paypal to call on it, so they just refund the buyer.
the domain is not the issue in this case

disagree? who are you to disagree? this is a paypal RULE! offering web services or domains or a website is intangible ! their is nothing to disagree with - that is the rules of paypal - I lost 1 case with paypal and lost $500 US because of their ruling. This ruling applies to anything that deals with web services or domains.

Explain your case before going around giving false advice.

 

[John Baron]

disagree? who are you to disagree? this is a paypal RULE! offering web services or domains or a website is intangible ! their is nothing to disagree with - that is the rules of paypal - I lost 1 case with paypal and lost $500 US because of their ruling. This ruling applies to anything that deals with web services or domains.

Explain your case before going around giving false advice.

first of all , iam allowed to disagree with you, who am i ? well just some nice guy who want to share his opinion, thats it
i did not give an advise and told him what to do , sense he dont have much to do , but to wait for paypal to decide

i had a case just like that and paypal refund the buyer, this is why i disagree
i think the rule you are talking about, does not include ebay listing,
what the seller write in his listing is like an agreement between him and the buyer, if the seller do not delver the goods as he wrote in his listing , paypal will surly refund the buyer
i have learn it on my own flash
and in this case, he had to write exactly what is being offered and the time its going to take , does the buyer maybe had to be more patient ? more understanding ? he sure is,
but when you write something on your listing, you need to be sure you can delver it and that the buyer understand the time table , if not , be ready to take the heat

 

[DN BROKER]

first of all , iam allowed to disagree with you, who am i ? well just some nice guy who want to share his opinion, thats it
i did not give an advise and told him what to do , sense he dont have much to do , but to wait for paypal to decide

i had a case just like that and paypal refund the buyer, this is why i disagree
i think the rule you are talking about, does not include ebay listing,
what the seller write in his listing is like an agreement between him and the buyer, if the seller do not delver the goods as he wrote in his listing , paypal will surly refund the buyer
i have learn it on my own flash
and in this case, he didnt delver on time , does the buyer maybe had to be more patient ? more understanding ? he sure is,
but when you write something on your listing, you need to be sure you can delver it , if not , be ready to take the heat

That is 100% not true. I paid a person $500 to deliver and he delivered nothing and paypal favoured him - cause the case was intangible! When you purchase or contract someone for web services through paypal its intangible and you are risking it!

You still have not provided a clear description of your issues... does not matter if you disagree or not , the fact remains if PAYPAL used for transactions for domains or web services its INTANGIBLE! Meaning HIGH RISK Take it and pray you dont get scammed!

 

[John Baron]

That is 100% not true. I paid a person $500 to deliver and he delivered nothing and paypal favoured him - cause the case was intangible! When you purchase or contract someone for web services through paypal its intangible and you are risking it!

You still have not provided a clear description of your issues... does not matter if you disagree or not , the fact remains if PAYPAL used for transactions for domains or web services its INTANGIBLE! Meaning HIGH RISK Take it and pray you dont get scammed!

in this case , that you lost 500 $ , was it ebay lisitng?

 

[DN BROKER]

in this case , that you lost 500 $ , was it ebay lisitng?

who is talking about ebay?

We are discussing web services and domains using paypal for escrow

 

[sf2010]

24hourdomainer and lior;

just keep in mind that paypal decision process is rather arbitrary in that two similar cases maybe decided differently. call it the "paypal effect". it purely depends on to whom your case is assigned.

saas-

in my experience, "services" are considered by paypal to be "intangible" so you should have a solid case. just send them an email with the dispute number and explain that 2 remaining domains will be transferred.

 

[Jaco]

[possible good news thread hijack]

Hey Samuel. I see you're a coder?
I need an English-native-language speaking coder with reasonable rates for work on a project that's already about 75% done- just need some polish up work, a few mods and some general SEO. It may require some complex dev for some needed backend functions, but if you can't do those, there are plenty of simple things that need to be done.

If you can send me examples of your work, please IM and I can direct you to the site and give you the preview passwords (and don't worry- I never screw over the guys who work on my sites )

[/back to regular thread]

 

[samuelhr]

Claim was escalated, I told paypal that the goods are intangible as per their policy and that the goods were delivered in part and the rest are still being delivered, waiting for the client to reply. I really hope I don't lose this, buggered if I do.

 

[DubDubDubDot]

What country is the buyer from?

 

[cartoonz]

Just say it was an intangible item and you automatically win since paypal dont offer protection to buyers if its an intangible item. All you have to say in the dispute is intangible item and say that it was electronically delivered.

Claim was escalated, I told paypal that the goods are intangible as per their policy and that the goods were delivered in part and the rest are still being delivered, waiting for the client to reply. I really hope I don't lose this, buggered if I do.

You had complete control UNTIL you told PayPal that you had not fully delivered. That was not wise. Now they could definitely charge you back by using your own admission of non-delivery - intangible or not.