PayPal dispute - What do I do ethically?

[samuelhr]

Hi,

A few weeks ago I listed a website I built for sale on a forum, the site was entirely custom programmed, the sale included 6 domains, the actual site and I also offered to perform any modifications, within reason, when requested.

I found a buyer, received the payment via paypal ($xxx) and started to transfer everything. The domains were: 4 x .net, 1 x .li and 1x .co.uk. the .net's and .li were with moniker. I pushed them all at the same time, however there was a problem transferring the .li, so I contacted moniker support - still awaiting a reply - and the same happened with the .co.uk, so the buyer has 4 out of the 6 domains.

After this I sent the actual site, I zipped up the entire site and then sent it, I helped the buyer install it and configure it. At this point the buyer has 4 out of the 6 domains and the entire script.

The buyer then requests I modify it, as agreed, so I ask what he wants and he explains, what he requested was basically for the entire site to be rewritten, this was well over 20 hours of work, however not to disappoint I agreed.

I had at no point expected this amount of work, I had other projects on which meant I was working through it slowly, an hour or two a day however it was getting done. After a couple of days the buyer opens a paypal dispute claiming I haven't delivered, I repeatedly explain that the work is taking time due to the amount of changes he requested and he continues to complain. After a bit of back and forth he decides to escalate the claim to Paypal.

I am now in the situation where: He has 4 out of the 6 domains, he has the original script and it's all set up + I've spent around 15 hours modifying the site to his new specifications.

What are the chances of paypal deciding in the buyers favour and me losing the domains and site? Should I stop the work and cancel the final 2 transfers of domains and put this down to being a loss, or can I claim against him? Is it morally wrong for me, if I win the dispute, to tell him I'm no longer doing the work and he can keep what he has already?

sorry if this is the wrong section

 

[matrigaldo]

I have the same problem with a full working website sold for mid $x,xxx one year ago.
The buyer asked me twice to pay through PayPal and not through Escrow as i requested but since he was pretty kind and looked reputable (on some forums and eBay), i decided to trust in him.

After i've transferred the domains (.net and .info) and installed the website on his VPS, he disappeared from MSN and didn't reply to mails or PMs anymore. Then one week later he opened a PayPal dispute declaring he has never received anything related to the invoice, freezing the amount in my PayPal funds (like 90% of total balance).

What i've done then? The domains were set as private, so i have contacted GoDaddy explaining them the situation and asking if they could provide me the name of the new owner BEFORE the domains would become privates. Surprisingly GoDaddy Support replied with all the details within 12 hours, and i forwarded the email to PayPal. Besides i've called payPal support like 3 times in a week even because the dispute became a claim, and because i showed them how the VPS (static IP) was owned by the buyer..they were telling me the same thing: since the product is not tangible, i don't have to care about, it's extremely rare PayPal will refund the buyer, and with the documentation i've provided them, chances were nothing.

After 2 weeks PayPal closed the claim in my favour.

Just let them know you have transferred the domains and if necessary try to find and contact the hosting company of the buyer and explain them the situation, i'm pretty sure they will help you providing important informations, and then forward them to PayPal.

Anyway, block the transfer of .li and .co.uk domain name if the buyer doesn't reply to your emails.

 

[edjones]

PPC is just the "sponsored" listings sections of the website, once your budget disappears, so does your listing.

 

[samuelhr]

Paypal awarded in his favour...

I now have no paypal account access, so I can't pay my server bills or receive money from clients, so I'm screwed. I don't get why they awarded in his favour; I sent him all, besides one domain, which was being processed - I cancelled it - and the site, I even helped him install it and get it up and running.

He now has some of my domains AND a site that I've spent a lot of time working on ALL FOR FREE and I now can't afford my rent or server renewal, piece of crap.

Any ideas how I can dispute this well? I've just sent a message saying that the items WERE SENT and are INTANGIBLE by Paypals rules, making this case wrongly ruled, will this help?

 

[wot]

Paypal awarded in his favour...

I now have no paypal account access, so I can't pay my server bills or receive money from clients, so I'm screwed. I don't get why they awarded in his favour; I sent him all, besides one domain, which was being processed - I cancelled it - and the site, I even helped him install it and get it up and running.

He now has some of my domains AND a site that I've spent a lot of time working on ALL FOR FREE and I now can't afford my rent or server renewal, piece of crap.

Any ideas how I can dispute this well? I've just sent a message saying that the items WERE SENT and are INTANGIBLE by Paypals rules, making this case wrongly ruled, will this help?

The problem with paypal is that they have minions making such decisions and they are impossible to communicate with via email as they will refer to "policy" / "dispute procedure" those minions in local offices are just following a rule book.

To resolve this, hopefully, you would need to actually talk with a supervisor/manager at head office. Try that.

Good luck

 

[samuelhr]

The problem with paypal is that they have minions making such decisions and they are impossible to communicate with via email as they will refer to "policy" / "dispute procedure" those minions in local offices are just following a rule book.

To resolve this, hopefully, you would need to actually talk with a supervisor/manager at head office. Try that.

Good luck

I'll give them a call later then, or tomorrow. Thanks :D

 

[Morph]

Name And Shame???

 

[matrigaldo]

I heartily reccomend you to call PayPal Support and talk directly with someone with the right knowledges and power inside their company.
In this way i'm sure you will solve your problem. Keep in mind my earlier suggestions in this thread.

 

[domainsamurai]

So you agreed beforehand to modify the site without setting any limitations? That was a mistake. Every now and then you run across people the internet that just can't be reasoned with. It seems like you may have come in contact with such a person. I've had a few encounters like this and it is best to get it resolved as quickly as possible and move on. I don't think you have much of a chance of winning with paypal. Good luck.

 

[izmas]

Sorry to hear what happened, I hope it all gets resolved your way. I also think you should name the person if they are in this community.

 

[samuelhr]

They're not a member here as far as I am aware.

I called Paypal earlier, as soon as they answered I said I was appealing a dispute, said that it wasn't tangible and they instantly reverted the decision.

 

[izmas]

Great job! Glad to hear you worked it out, its really annoying when crap like this happens and you get all stressed out. :bah:

They're not a member here as far as I am aware.

I called Paypal earlier, as soon as they answered I said I was appealing a dispute, said that it wasn't tangible and they instantly reverted the decision.

 

[tech4]

That's the problem with Paypal, if its intangible, they do not protect the buyer.

In your case, you have delivered 4/6 domain names or 2/3 and didn't finish the modifications you promised, 1/3 of the goods not delivered. It seems that paypal doesn't look at user agreements or anything when it comes to intangible, because they do not protect buyer.

This is just very bad business for buyers of domain names. If names are hijack, or non delivered as in the case 1/3 not delivered, buyer is out of luck.

 

[samuelhr]

That's the problem with Paypal, if its intangible, they do not protect the buyer.

In your case, you have delivered 4/6 domain names or 2/3 and didn't finish the modifications you promised, 1/3 of the goods not delivered. It seems that paypal doesn't look at user agreements or anything when it comes to intangible, because they do not protect buyer.

This is just very bad business for buyers of domain names. If names are hijack, or non delivered as in the case 1/3 not delivered, buyer is out of luck.

I have to agree, if I were the buyer in this case I'd be extremely annoyed with Paypal, I'd not mind if they sided with the buyer, but I've spent time doing the work for the buyer and was in the process of delivering, ideally I'd refund the money if he wasn't pleased, however I have to put myself first and I cannot afford to do that, especially when I can't resell the website once he's had it, no guarantee it's unique anymore.

 

[tech4]

I mean, Paypal doesn't follow up on if the domain name has been transfered or the agreements. I have a few cases where there are written agreements between both parties, paypal doesn't look at the agreements and items at all. If its intangible, they don't care.

Its either all or nothing with Paypal. I hope someone comes into the picture and blow paypal out of the water for good for not having business guidelines and procedures on third party agreements and follow up on intangible/electronic. Paypal doesn't seem to be caring about its customer at all because its a monopoly.

 

[happyhappy]

LOL I would ask the buyer why they disputed.. since it has been reversed now and hopefully it will stick in your favor. Usually buyers are understanding when they request more work to be done when they are not paying for it. Maybe they don't