I think you guys are making a big mistake

[sgtppr]

Are domainers making a mistake?

cliffs notes at bottom

ok so i studied long and hard for probably 30 hours over the last three days. i think the advice on www.domainnewbie.com and much of the advice on this board is really short-sighted and wrong.

this is the hypothesis i have formulated which i'd like feedback on. if im wrong, tell me why.



the advice passed around on this board, boards like it and by the various gurus, primarily boils down to telling people how to get good at flipping domains. how to select domains that will be highly liquid on the open market, which you can sell for a fast profit.


true or false?





ok well to me thats a retarded strategy unless you just have some aversion to getting a normal job, or you think you can make more doing that than you could doing something else...or because you like the perks of domain flipping over another job etc. those are all fine ends, but those are not the only ends.




i have a deep love affair with the internet, web 2.0, businesss 2.0, technology and all it can do for us as humans. i express that love by taking part in the revolution that is taking place all around us. i build websites and products and services i think people will like. isn't that what a domain name is for? to build something on?



if i have a choice between these two domains:



models.tv

and

wie.com


i would take models.tv in an instant

sure i'm probably going to pay less for models.tv, but this isn't about money, its about which one i can develop into a better site some day, or which one somebody else might make into a great site by leasing the domain from me or though some kind of partnership. its not about which one appeals to a broader market of potential buyers. great artists don't decide what to paint based upon how many people might buy their painting. in fact many of them were ridiculed until after their death! i think the same will happen with domainers. once you guys stop churning domains with each other and making money for sedo, godaddy and paypal, the market for all these stupid domains will hit the floor. you want to know what end users think about qkft.com? they think its lame unless their company happens to have those initials


cliffs notes

good domain selection should be based on how usable a domain is by an end-user, not on how likely you are to flip it to another domainer

 

[Diabro]

Back to the thread, can developing a premium name actually hurt the value? Say you had cars.com and a budget of $200 and put up a REALLY bad site. The site was there for years. Could that hurt the resale value as a site was up, people went there and were turned off...or is the name cars so marketable that it would not matter?

 

[TheBulldog]

the name cars.com is so marketable that you could put up an lizard picture site and it would not matter.

 

[Keith]

Pokerpie, I think you under estimate the growth rate of domain names. Flipping is natural because a name worth $10 today can be worth $100 tomorrow. Why monkey around when the quick cash is there? If you get good at buying low and selling high you're all set!

 

[Michael]

The market for LLL.com's says otherwise. And no ... they aren't all being sold to other domainers.

NameBio did a sample of 33 LLL.com domains that were sold recently and 82% of them were parked after the sale, which would most likely indicate that they were purchased by domainers. Just an interesting tidbit.

 

[Diabro]

NameBio did a sample of 33 LLL.com domains that were sold recently and 82% of them were parked after the sale, which would most likely indicate that they were purchased by domainers. Just an interesting tidbit.

Interesting.

 

[Mark]

NameBio did a sample of 33 LLL.com domains that were sold recently and 82% of them were parked after the sale, which would most likely indicate that they were purchased by domainers. Just an interesting tidbit.

I agree but It could also mean they aren't ready to put up a site as well. Please note I said "Not All" are/were sold to domainers.

And even if they are ALL sold to domainers - It's the sellers choice to do so - Profit is Profit no matter how you look at it. Many flip domains for fun and as a side job (I personally get just as big a thrill out of finding available domains as I do selling them) , many flip them because they are easily bored with ideas (I fit in there ), Some flip domains as a living (And I know several pulling down NICE incomes doing so). Nothing wrong with it ~ IMO


To each his own.

Pokerpie, I think you under estimate the growth rate of domain names. Flipping is natural because a name worth $10 today can be worth $100 tomorrow. Why monkey around when the quick cash is there? If you get good at buying low and selling high you're all set!

Exactly - And you have more Working Capital for projects where you have an interest as well.

 

[sgtppr]

Diabro,

I think the value has gone up now that it was Cars.com as its current business, but say CarsDirect bought that and they decided to make Cars.com a parked page instead of re-directing the traffic, and then after a year of being parked, they now wanted to sell it for xx,xxx,xxx+ at auction, i think the value at auction would be higher because it was such a recognizable and high quality site about cars, prior. though the minimum value i think could only ever be whatever value it would have if you had nothing on it. even if people hate the site, they will still go to it and maybe click links (like ppl who hate howard stern or the kkk im sure go to their websites sometimes) and then over time after people forget the name you can sell it to an end user. if you have a name people will never forget, as i said, thats going to be a very valuable parked page imo

 

[Ross]

Diabro,

I think the value has gone up now that it was Cars.com as its current business, but say CarsDirect bought that and they decided to make Cars.com a parked page instead of re-directing the traffic, and then after a year of being parked, they now wanted to sell it for xx,xxx,xxx+ at auction, i think the value at auction would be higher because it was such a recognizable and high quality site about cars, prior. though the minimum value i think could only ever be whatever value it would have if you had nothing on it. even if people hate the site, they will still go to it and maybe click links (like ppl who hate howard stern or the kkk im sure go to their websites sometimes) and then over time after people forget the name you can sell it to an end user. if you have a name people will never forget, as i said, thats going to be a very valuable parked page imo

If CarsDirect bought cars.com im pretty sure you would NEVER see that name become available again. This is why VALUE on generics like this are so HIGH. I know for a fact they would make more money if they redirected the traffic to their site or even put their own site up on Cars.com. The reason why is because they will make more money selling THEIR product than if they take the measly $.20 per click a parking company would offer.

 

[sgtppr]

Interesting.

There is nothing interesting about that other than the fact that you guys find it interesting. It was obvious to me after I studied the available literature on domaining and looked at the various auctions on sedo, godaddy and the sales histories on moniker, afertnic and others.

i would say that 95% of the VOLUME of domain sales is being done domainer to domainer. however that 5% is where 95% of the $xx,xxx domains are sold and also probably a sizable amount of the profits i have no idea if the total $ amounts in domains flipped is higher at the top or the bottom, the 95% domainers churn amongst themselves is probably a very large share of the total domain churn each year...but if domainers stopped selling to each other and only sold to end users...the marketplace would imo look very very very very very differnet and you would not see domains like LLL.com unpronoucable selling for anything at auction. the only people who would even register it would be end users and people who think end users might come asking for it someday.

 

[Ross]

A LOT of sales are done privately by the way. There are domains that sell for millions that no one knows about because the people that sell or buy them dont want the public to know. That is where alot of end users are and if you want to sell a domain for $xxxx value you have to do your homework and contact these people.

 

[Gene]

There is nothing interesting about that other than the fact that you guys find it interesting.

So... then it IS interesting.

i would say that 95% of the VOLUME of domain sales is being done domainer to domainer. however that 5% is where 95% of the $xx,xxx domains are sold and also probably a sizable amount of the profits i have no idea if the total $ amounts in domains flipped is higher at the top or the bottom, the 95% domainers churn amongst themselves is probably a very large share of the total domain churn each year...but if domainers stopped selling to each other and only sold to end users...the marketplace would imo look very very very very very differnet and you would not see domains like LLL.com unpronoucable selling for anything at auction. the only people who would even register it would be end users and people who think end users might come asking for it someday.

To find an end-user willing to pay $xx,xxx for a particular domain in my portfolio, it may take a year, or two, or five. In order to keep a positive cash flow while waiting for that end-user, I can flip domains to other domainers within minutes or hours. One market is not necessarily better than the other. I find that both are necessary to survive, and thrive as a domainer.

 

[sgtppr]

So... then it IS interesting.

To find an end-user willing to pay $xx,xxx for a particular domain in my portfolio, it may take a year, or two, or five. In order to keep a positive cash flow while waiting for that end-user, I can flip domains to other domainers within minutes or hours. One market is not necessarily better than the other. I find that both are necessary to survive, and thrive as a domainer.

In that regard then I suppose I agree with you. Though I would say that really they are two completely separate things. Domaining and selling to end users appears to be one collective goal but its not at all...what you have is a way to supplement your end user sales (which are few and far between, but also very lucrative if you are lucky and good) with positive short term cash flow to pay the bills and make bets on long term domains. You can develop sites, or churn domains for profit, or deliver the mail or whatever you want.

can someone edit my title?. 'are domainers making a mistake?' seems more appropriate

 

[Michael]

There is nothing interesting about that other than the fact that you guys find it interesting. It was obvious to me after I studied the available literature on domaining and looked at the various auctions on sedo, godaddy and the sales histories on moniker, afertnic and others.

i would say that 95% of the VOLUME of domain sales is being done domainer to domainer. however that 5% is where 95% of the $xx,xxx domains are sold and also probably a sizable amount of the profits i have no idea if the total $ amounts in domains flipped is higher at the top or the bottom, the 95% domainers churn amongst themselves is probably a very large share of the total domain churn each year...but if domainers stopped selling to each other and only sold to end users...the marketplace would imo look very very very very very differnet and you would not see domains like LLL.com unpronoucable selling for anything at auction. the only people who would even register it would be end users and people who think end users might come asking for it someday.

1. Does Sedo, Godaddy, Moniker, AfterNic, etc. tell you whether the domain was sold to an end-user or a domainer? Obviously not...

2. Where do you get that 95% number? You saying it doesn't make it significant or true. Watch... "I would say 1% of domain sales are being done domainer to domainer." Without sources, what you say is meaningless.

3. If you always hold out for an end-user, your sales will be far and few between and you will quickly fail in this business.

4. LLL.coms will never be cheap even if we didn't sell them between domainers. Short domains are sought after because they are easy to remember, if you think being able to pronounce a domain is the only metric that determines its value you seriously have a lot to learn. Corporations are willing to pay a lot for these domains, which is why domainers are willing to pay a lot for them in the aftermarket.

 

[equity78]

Let me get this straight something is not interesting because you say so ? That's hysterical, almost as hysterical as this entire thread.

First off there is no "you guys" People here are not related, and have many different business models, lifestyles and budgets.

Secondly the most successful domainers in the world do not post on domain forums,
Frank Schilling, Rick Schwartz, Scott Day, Kevin Ham, Sahar Sarid, Elequa, IREG, IREIT,NameMedia etc... None are posting on this forum so you have a small sampling of reading what a few have done to use as a thesis.

So you can pontificate whatever you like, and no its not fresh, there is always some new person who believes there way is the right way. When the only right way is what works for each individual.

what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no NP$, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Keith]

NameBio did a sample of 33 LLL.com domains that were sold recently and 82% of them were parked after the sale, which would most likely indicate that they were purchased by domainers. Just an interesting tidbit.

It really does'nt indicate anything other than the buyer initially parked it. That makes perfect sense to park it while you get dev. plans together

I would like to see that study 6 months to a year after the purchase to be more accurate.

 

[Diabro]

There is nothing interesting about that other than the fact that you guys find it interesting. It was obvious to me after I studied the available literature on domaining and looked at the various auctions on sedo, godaddy and the sales histories on moniker, afertnic and others.

You seem to have very little world experience and are very self interested. These two things do not lend to being a good marketer. To be a marketer you have to understand how the market operates, not how you wish it to operate.

There are high dollar reseller to reseller transactions. As a matter of fact some of the top resellers have huge portfolios and spend a lot of dollars on premium domains and domain portfolios.

As for judging whether it is interesting or not, it was not just interesting to some of us but interesting enough for someone to research and write about. You may not find it interesting but you even commented on it which shows some interest.

 

[Michael]

It really does'nt indicate anything other than the buyer initially parked it. That makes perfect sense to park it while you get dev. plans together

As a domainer it seems like common sense to you, but go ask your grandmother what parking is, ask your boss what parking is, and ask your girlfriend what parking is and you'll see what I'm talking about. If someone knows what parking is, it is MUCH more likely than not that they are a domainer.

 

[equity78]

BLUE.com sold for $500,000 been parked on SEDO for almost two years, so domainer or not its parked.

 

[Keith]

As a domainer it seems like common sense to you, but go ask your grandmother what parking is, ask your boss what parking is, and ask your girlfriend what parking is and you'll see what I'm talking about. If someone knows what parking is, it is MUCH more likely than not that they are a domainer.

It's more like... ask my grandmother what a domain name is :hehe:

 

[sgtppr]

1. Does Sedo, Godaddy, Moniker, AfterNic, etc. tell you whether the domain was sold to an end-user or a domainer? Obviously not...

2. Where do you get that 95% number? You saying it doesn't make it significant or true. Watch... "I would say 1% of domain sales are being done domainer to domainer." Without sources, what you say is meaningless.

3. If you always hold out for an end-user, your sales will be far and few between and you will quickly fail in this business.

4. LLL.coms will never be cheap even if we didn't sell them between domainers. Short domains are sought after because they are easy to remember, if you think being able to pronounce a domain is the only metric that determines its value you seriously have a lot to learn. Corporations are willing to pay a lot for these domains, which is why domainers are willing to pay a lot for them in the aftermarket.

1. Evidently something has gone over your head here. I'll let others elborate

2. See number 1

3. People define success and failure in different ways. Obv a strategy like mine is not going to work out if you are trying to pay your bills from domain sales. But I am saying it is the one which will have the higher 'expected value' (poker term) in the end.

4. Would you say that all domain prices are tied specifically to what an end user might pay for them? I think not. Or at least that many many domains that end users would pay a lot for (eventually) are very cheap relative to lots of others

5. How much for 545.com :hehe:

 

[TheBulldog]

Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no NP$, and may God have mercy on your soul.

If I may extrapolate......

Reading stupid rambling threads on Namepros=Lowered IQ+no NP$? If that is the case, is it not logical that those that have been around the longest and have read the most idiotic posts are ipso-facto, the dumbest, and since they are the onese doing a lot of flipping, perhaps newbie is right?

Or not. I can't decide, I lost my free will in the mobi section.

 

[Michael]

BLUE.com sold for $500,000 been parked on SEDO for almost two years, so domainer or not its parked.

I wasn't debating whether a parked site is parked, I was simply showing a statistic that with rudimentary analytic skills you should be able to deduce that most LLL.com domains are in the hands of a domainer and not an end-user.

 

[equity78]

I wasn't speaking to you Domain Raiders I was pointing out even with an end user type number they get parked so its not to say that domainer to domainer sales cannot be for big money.

 

[tpruby]

cliffs notes at bottom

ok so i studied long and hard for probably 30 hours over the last three days. i think the advice ...on this board is really short-sighted and wrong.

this is the hypothesis i have formulated which i'd like feedback on. if im wrong, tell me why...ok well to me thats a retarded strategy unless you just have some aversion to getting a normal job,...

So, after 30 hours, the best ( and offensive at that) you could come up with is that it's 'retarded'!?

That's one well though out hypothesis and a well reasoned argument, indeed!

 

[equity78]

If I may extrapolate......

Reading stupid rambling threads on Namepros=Lowered IQ+no NP$? If that is the case, is it not logical that those that have been around the longest and have read the most idiotic posts are ipso-facto, the dumbest, and since they are the onese doing a lot of flipping, perhaps newbie is right?

Or not. I can't decide, I lost my free will in the mobi section.

No most know to avoid