Flippa and his curious solution

[Dondomainer]

After selling a domain. have confirmed my account with my credit card, have also confirmed my account with the phone, my email, have transferred the domain to buyer,

Flippa says that they send payment through paypal, if I add my bank account and as an alternative solution they say :

If the buyer has already received the assets and wishes to send you funds directly via PayPal, I'm happy to refund the Buyer's payment.

Also they say that $ 5 of my credit card frozen for two days, were not to authenticate my account, wait a minute, then flippa lie because that's exactly what they say.

His solution is utterly disappointing, worthy of a novice website.

I don't feel safe on offer too much information about me, I think they have created a system that works more like a financial institution as a domain market.

In the end, I do not know when I can collect my money, a complete nightmare.

 

[FlippaDomains]

Because the funds are in the Flippa Escrow vault, and because you do not have a bank account, they cannot pay out to you. I have asked you for your Flippa Escrow Customer Support ticket ID, since you've claimed to have been speaking to them. Upon receipt of that number, I can speak with their reps to see how we can get you your money.

 

[ForceAwakens]

Because the funds are in the Flippa Escrow vault, and because you do not have a bank account, they cannot pay out to you. I have asked you for your Flippa Escrow Customer Support ticket ID, since you've claimed to have been speaking to them. Upon receipt of that number, I can speak with their reps to see how we can get you your money.

Hi Kevin, perhaps you missed my post [#37] but can you clarify Flippa requesting a driver's license held next to one's head as proof of id ?

This seems like a ns@ type of invasion of privacy and goes against many consumer privacy advocates' advice.

Plus, I am aware you have a US base in San Fran and California is not keen on consumers being forced to share private info.

I am bored right now and killed time looking for any other well know entity that requests a user's id be submitted as a selfie.

air bnb - uber - paypal - facebook = None of them request this.

Facebook offers what seems like a sensible way to prove id:

The types of IDs that Facebook accepts:

• Birth certificate
• Driver's license
• Passport
• Marriage certificate
• Official Name change paperwork
• Personal or vehicle insurance card
• Non-driver's government ID
• Green card, residence permit or immigration papers
• Social Security Card
• Voter ID Card

In addition, Facebook will also accept any of the two following items that must show the name and date of birth of the locked out Facebook user.

• Bank statement
• Bus card
• Check
• Credit Card
• Employment verification
• Library card
• Mail
• Magazine subscription stub
• Medical record
• Membership IDs
• Paycheck stub
• Permit
• School card
• School record
• Utility bill
• Yearbook photo

Thanks

 

[FlippaDomains]

@ForceAwakens These are valid points and good questions, and I'm gathering a response from their Melbourne-based team.

Am actively looking into @gipson 's case; we're PM'ing some details and I should know more soon.

 

[Joshua Mangan]

Hi everyone

Thanks for the feedback.

In the majority of transactions (more than 97%), Flippa Escrow verifies users' identities without photo verification. Flippa Escrow is able to verify the majority of our users' identities automatically by matching their details with public records. Occasionally (less than 3% of transactions), these automated checks fail triggering the need for photo verification. These checks usually fail because the customer provides information that is inconsistent with other information they have provided or with public records.

Just to clarify - "Flippa Escrow" is not operated by Flippa. It is operated by a trusted payments company called PromisePay. The payments industry is highly regulated, and PromisePay is required to comply with KYC (know your customers) / AML (anti-money laundering) / CTF (counter terrorism financing) laws. If PromisePay fails to comply with these laws, they could be shutdown and potentially face criminal charges.

While I can appreciate that photo verification is frustrating - it is required in rare situations to comply with the law. We are working closely with PromisePay to make Flippa Escrow as easy as possible to use and reduce the number of instances that photo verification is triggered.

I am bored right now and killed time looking for any other well know entity that requests a user's id be submitted as a selfie.

air bnb - uber - paypal - facebook = None of them request this.

Actually, there are a number of well known entities that require photo verification. Infact, AirBnb is one such entity. It is quite well known that AirBnb uses Jumio Netverify. Other companies include Groupon and BetFair just to name a few.

Gipson - PM either Kevin (@FlippaDomains) or myself and we will be more than happy to assist.

I would also like to highlight that Flippa provides Flippa Escrow for free for customers. Customers are also welcome to use escrow.com at their own expense (and we have even negotiated cheaper rates on your behalf).

Gipson - I do not recommend that you use PayPal as it is the least secure payment method (although is probably the quickest and easiest).

Josh

 

[Dondomainer]

Hi everyone

Gipson - I do not recommend that you use PayPal as it is the least secure payment method (although is probably the quickest and easiest).

Josh

What is unheard for me is, why Flippa can take money from my credit card before authentication, but when it is their turn to pay slows down the entire process.

At this point, I've been waiting 15 days for any solution under justification for the implementation of OFAC Program, which, I am 99% sure that is a lie, at least in my case. but otherwise, is not a bad idea to send a complaint letter to the Treasury Department, about why they block or involved in my business.

 

[harpo]

i guess someone triggered an algorithm within Flippas system as a potential trouble maker : } which by the way is about 3% of the community as they stated
..... i wish i had that technology within my system ,

 

[Joshua Mangan]

i guess someone triggered an algorithm within Flippas system as a potential trouble maker : } which by the way is about 3% of the community as they stated
..... i wish i had that technology within my system ,

Just to clarify - just because Flippa Escrow fails to automatically verify a user's identity does not mean that they are a trouble maker. Of the 3% of transactions that require photo verification - the vast majority are subsequently confirmed as legitimate transactions using photo verification.

What is unheard for me is, why Flippa can take money from my credit card before authentication, but when it is their turn to pay slows down the entire process.

At this point, I've been waiting 15 days for any solution under justification for the implementation of OFAC Program, which, I am 99% sure that is a lie, at least in my case. but otherwise, is not a bad idea to send a complaint letter to the Treasury Department, about why they block or involved in my business.

Everything that has been said to you is the truth. We are trying to work with you to resolve this issue.

 

[Jen-Sin]

@Joshua Mangan,

I think the main issue is the disconnect between Flippa and your customers. Flippa is very quick to suspend and/or ban. Even a request to get a user verified will get an account suspended / banned. This is very disruptive to ongoing bidding and auctions.

In addition, Flippa and Flippa Escrow seems to be conducting customer identity verification independently. A customer who is properly verified by Flippa may need to face another around of verification by Flippa Escrow. Instead of Knowing Your Customer, it seems that the organisation does not know the customer at all, and seems to require many verifications. With many verifications along the way, we customers sometimes wonder whether did Flippa store our previous submitted records properly. If not, why the constant need for verification from time to time?

Furthermore, some of these verifications occur just when a transaction is done, after the customer requests for the release of funds.

All these only bring about unpleasant experiences for your customers. There seems to be no/little trust from the organisation, despite some of us completing many transactions prior.

Regarding a financial institution's AML KYC program, verifying the identity of customer usually is done when a new customer signs up, not after a transaction is completed, and especially not prior to release of funds. Existing verified customers usually do not need their identity verified again.

Also, a financial institution does not need to establish the accuracy of every element of CIP-identifying information that is obtained from the client. However, it must verify enough information to form a reasonable belief that it knows the true identity of the customer.

That is why many of us are puzzled why Flippa as an organisation require so many levels and layers of verification, from full name, email address, social media, mobile number, credit card charge, PayPal account, to image of photo ID, selfie holding photo ID, bank account details, and SMS 2FA. You mentioned this is an industrial standard which is highly regulated, yet it seems only Flippa and AirBnB are complying with them. Why other financial institutions like escrow.com, PayPal, and even other domain marketplaces like Sedo, GoDaddy, etc do not have such high standards in the same industries?

You added that Flippa and Flippa Escrow are separate entity. Yet Flippa Escrow has the power / authority to suspend / ban a user due to their own verification requirements. Flippa Escrow even quoted the Flippa Terms and Conditions 3.1.h that we users agree to provide Flippa with all identification documents which Flippa requests from us from time to time for the purposes of verifying our identity. Doesn't seems separate to many of us.

There are two methods of verification to gain reasonable belief that the financial institution knows the true identity of a customer: documentary and non-documentary method.

Identity Verification for Individuals (Documentary Method)

To verify the identity and nationality of an individual, the AML/onboarding staff should review any of the unexpired government-issued identification cards or reputable agency-issued (i.e., DMV and IRS) documentation below:

• Driver’s license
• State-issued ID
• Passport
• Consular identification cards
• Foreign driver’s license
• Original utility bill
• Notarized bank statement
• Tax bill

To verify the address of an individual, the staff should review any of the below ID cards, which should include the individual’s current place of residence:

• Driver’s license
• State-issued ID
• Foreign driver’s license

Identity Verification for Individuals (Non-Documentary Method)

When conducting non-documentary verification, an AML staff member can:

• Validate the customer’s information using risk intelligence databases or platforms like World Check and LexisNexis
• Validate customer identity against fraud and bad check databases
• Check references (i.e., other banks and credit card companies)
• Contact the customer directly to conduct an inquiry and also validate a provided phone number
• Validate the customer’s identity against credit or consumer reports
• Request and review the customer’s financial statements

At no instance is a selfie holding a photo ID a recommended method as a means of identity verification for customers. Maybe this is the reason why other financial organisations like PayPal only require a photo ID and a matching utility bill to verify the identity, nationality and address of their customers. And I don't think other organisations will ban or suspend a user immediately when they require a verification.

If this is really the standard industry regulations, we should hear more similar unhappiness regarding usage of other marketplaces and or financial services, but in this forum, unhappiness arising from Flippa's verification seems to be recurring from time to time. It is also not surprising that some customers felt that Flippa is acting more stringent than a bank.

May I suggest that the verification processes of Flippa and Flippa Escrow be streamlined as one and to study how other marketplaces / escrow companies conduct their KYC.


Disclaimer: I'm not an expert in this field, but the above is my understanding after reading the 2 sources below as well as my verification experiences with PayPal and Flippa.


Sources:
http://www.advisoryhq.com/articles/cip-process-verify-customer-identity/
http://www.protiviti.com/en-US/Docu...-US-AML-Requirements-5thEdition-Protiviti.pdf (p71, 104, 107, 108)

 

[Joshua Mangan]

@Jen-Sin

Thanks for your response and feedback.

I can confirm that Flippa and Flippa Escrow conduct verification separately at the moment. We are working closely with PromisePay to improve the user experience around verification. That being said, photo verification is not common (less than 3% of transactions). It is normally triggered when there is discrepancy between information provided by the customer. In the vast majority of cases, we can verify a users identity automatically electronically.

Take the OP for example:

I have no private bank account, is shared with my family, so I can not compromise all that.

Gipson may have completely legitimate reasons for wanting his funds paid into a bank account shared with his family. However, this is likely to flag a potential verification problem.

Flippa and AirBnb are certainly not alone in having strict verification measures. Other payment companies including PayPal are subject to the same rules as PromisePay/Flippa Escrow. PayPal actually have similar policies as Flippa Escrow. See https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/confirm-your-identity

 

[ForceAwakens]

Hi Joe, I was specifically referring to Flippa asking users to both submit their photo id via a scan (perfectly normal of course!) AND hold their photo id next to their faces. (Selfie with id)

AirBNB does not ask this of anyone. (Neither does Paypal)

Flippa is the only major company of nearly 100 I have checked that does this.
www DOT airbnb DOT com/help/article/450/what-is-verified-id

I'm close to creating a subReddit or article on Consumerist on this, just because I don't know of any other company that asks for such a thing.
For full disclosure I should mention I'm a privacy rights activist, so this issue is close to my heart.

Thanks for your time.

 

[ForceAwakens]

Jen-Sin, nothing to add. Just wanted to say that you are a great writer. Quite impressed !

 

[Joshua Mangan]

AirBNB does not ask this of anyone.

Yes - AirBnb does require this.

See https://www.jumio.com/2013/05/airbn...ower-new-identification-verification-product/

 

[Dave_Z]

(Neither does Paypal)

Going off the OP's topic for a moment, looks like PayPal does depending on its location:

https://www.paypal.com/sg/webapps/mpp/confirm-your-identity

At least, the link above referenced a Singapore gov't. authority memo of sorts.

While I realize I seem to defend Flippa (Escrow) here, I think the point they've been trying to make is they want to be able to prove their user's identify if ever questioned by a government entity. Kind of a just-in-case thing despite the unannounced, uninvited and unwanted inconvenience it entails for everyone involved.

I'm not too keen on such a thing, either, albeit I somewhat recognize the necessity due to the amount of fraud and similar incidents happening. Heh, just the word fraud is enough to get anyone upset---and that's if one mentions it while trying to explain.

Anywho, Flippa's people recognize the concerns (or complaints) some of you folks posted here. Won't be easy figuring out how to resolve everyone's concerns, but...I'm sure they'll figure out something. The sooner the better of course.

If anything otherwise happens, one can always document about it for others to learn.

Good luck.

 

[FlippaDomains]

Anywho, Flippa's people recognize the concerns (or complaints) some of you folks posted here. Won't be easy figuring out how to resolve everyone's concerns, but...I'm sure they'll figure out something. The sooner the better of course.

We definitely do recognize, and are working with PromisePay to address all.

One thing I have mentioned in the recent past about what we (Flippa) can do sooner is to provide information about this potential ID request, either upon Flippa account signup, or upon designation of Flippa Escrow as a payment method. Then at least customers will know *upfront* that this may be required of them.

 

[Jen-Sin]

Flippa and AirBnb are certainly not alone in having strict verification measures. Other payment companies including PayPal are subject to the same rules as PromisePay/Flippa Escrow. PayPal actually have similar policies as Flippa Escrow. See https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/confirm-your-identity

I have mentioned in my earlier post the number of standard methods (documentary and non-documentary) financial institutions are recommended to verify a user.

For PayPal, Australians will be verified electronically, and if it can't be done electronically, users just need to submit an ID to verify name and date of birth and another document to verify address.

U.S. residents using PayPal either need to add and confirm a bank account with a phone call or get approved for their MasterCard or add a credit card if they live outside U.S. to verify their identity.

My experience as a Singapore resident, PayPal will notify us to confirm our identity when we are reaching a total transaction value of S$7,500. We will have 15 and 40 days from the notification before the account is limited. Users can still receive payments after 15 days. Only after 40 days of not submitting the documents will the user not able to send, receive or withdraw money. We only need to submit front and back of our ID, as it confirms the name, date of birth and address, reasonably sufficient to verify someone. We are required to upload the documents securely in the website, and not through a third-party site.

I used the examples of the 3 locations as PromisePay have offices in the 3 countries. The financial rules subjected to PayPal and PromisePay should be similar.

For Flippa (and/or Flippa Escrow), verification is not done upfront, nor spelled out clearly when it is required after certain milestones (e.g. 7,500 sgd transaction). From reading the forum threads, users seems to require to submit ID and selfie holding ID and bank details and credit card charge for verification. Double verification by Flippa and Flippa Escrow accentuates this impression. Users are suspended / banned almost immediately when required to verify, with a label besides our usernames that we had broken terms and conditions. During verification, one can't bid and auctions disrupted.

Will you present the exact financial rules instead of telling us these are KYC / AML / CTF laws Flippa is subjected to? Without showing us the exact regulations, your customers will continue to believe that these requirements are not an industrial standard as no other companies we are familiar with are demanding such requests, especially so when we tried to read up on the rules and they don't seem to match our experiences.

As I had mentioned to @FlippaDomains many times, please treat us as valued customers first and not "potential crooks."

 

[Jen-Sin]

Hi Joe, I was specifically referring to Flippa asking users to both submit their photo id via a scan (perfectly normal of course!) AND hold their photo id next to their faces. (Selfie with id)

AirBNB does not ask this of anyone. (Neither does Paypal)

Flippa is the only major company of nearly 100 I have checked that does this.
www DOT airbnb DOT com/help/article/450/what-is-verified-id

I'm close to creating a subReddit or article on Consumerist on this, just because I don't know of any other company that asks for such a thing.
For full disclosure I should mention I'm a privacy rights activist, so this issue is close to my heart.

Thanks for your time.

Yes - AirBnb does require this.

See https://www.jumio.com/2013/05/airbn...ower-new-identification-verification-product/

The jumio link did not mention they require a photo ID scan AND selfie with ID and other methods such as bank details and credit cards, which Flippa seems to require all.

Jumio powers the offline identification portion of Airbnb’s new tool, enabling users to quickly scan and verify their government-issued photo ID. The new product is designed to increase transparency and provide users in the Airbnb community with information that may be valuable to them in making their decisions.

Using their computer cameras and Netverify, Airbnb users can now scan an image of their government-issued photo ID as part of the ID verification process. Jumio is currently integrated into the Airbnb web sign-up process, and will be launching on Airbnb’s mobile app in the near future.

Jumio’s Netverify enables businesses with online and mobile distribution to meet KYC and ID verification requirements through real-time scanning, and validation of government-issued IDs from over 60 countries. Netverify also scans a range of other documents such as bank statements and utility bills used for address verification or other purposes.

What Jumio is doing is consistent with what I have read and shared earlier about KYC requirements, which is to verify enough information to form a reasonable belief that it knows the true identity of the customer.

 

[Jen-Sin]

Going off the OP's topic for a moment, looks like PayPal does depending on its location:

https://www.paypal.com/sg/webapps/mpp/confirm-your-identity

At least, the link above referenced a Singapore gov't. authority memo of sorts.

While I realize I seem to defend Flippa (Escrow) here, I think the point they've been trying to make is they want to be able to prove their user's identify if ever questioned by a government entity. Kind of a just-in-case thing despite the unannounced, uninvited and unwanted inconvenience it entails for everyone involved.

I'm not too keen on such a thing, either, albeit I somewhat recognize the necessity due to the amount of fraud and similar incidents happening. Heh, just the word fraud is enough to get anyone upset---and that's if one mentions it while trying to explain.

Anywho, Flippa's people recognize the concerns (or complaints) some of you folks posted here. Won't be easy figuring out how to resolve everyone's concerns, but...I'm sure they'll figure out something. The sooner the better of course.

If anything otherwise happens, one can always document about it for others to learn.

Good luck.

@Dave_Z, I'm a Singapore citizen and I have been subjected to PayPal verification before.

They just need a proof of name and address, which is satisfied by the front and back of our NRIC. They do not require selfie with ID, and they notify in advance when one is reaching the SGD 7,500 transaction milestone.

PayPal Singapore doesn't verify us just when we want to withdraw money after a transaction.

After notifying us, PayPal Singapore will only restrict sending and withdrawing funds after 15 days, and restrict sending, receiving and withdrawing funds after 40 days. They don't suspend / ban users almost immediately, with a tag hanging besides our username that we may have broken terms and conditions.

This is why I suggest to @Joshua Mangan to study how other marketplaces / escrow companies conduct their KYC, instead of always telling us the same story that other companies require the same, when we inform Flippa it's not from our experiences.

 

[Dondomainer]

Well, another week ends and nothing about my money.

 

[FlippaDomains]

Well, another week ends and nothing about my money.

I'm following up for you now.

 

[FlippaDomains]

@gipson

Thanks for your patience. I've PM'd you. Do let me know if you want me to explain more here so all can follow along.