.tv Digging A Little Below The Surface

[MillersCrossing]

My stance on the "renewal prices subject to change" wording in the TOS is that it is indeed an issue that needs to be resolved and if VeriSign thinks that this is something that they can slip under the radar, they are sadly misinformed, and can expect a fight on their hands in the form of both individual and class action lawsuits, which, besides destroying VeriSign’s reputation, would also be the final nail in the coffin of the .TV ext..

My message to VeriSign is simply this: you will make more from annual renewals of a successful extension than you will from the subject to change price increases from the handful of .tv website owners who decide to stick with their .tv.

Now on to other observations……there are those like Antonis, Exclusively.tv and Mr Rhee, whose opinions, concerns and posts regarding the renewal pricing policy are based upon sound reasoning and judgment and it reflects pretty clearly in what they write and how they come across……..

Then there are the irrationally exuberant, like Mindwrecker who for some reason cannot seem to grasp the issue at hand, then you have Hasrob, who has a beef with the overall concept of premium pricing and yearly renewal fees ( try buying any keyword .com and that may bring you to an understanding of the premium pricing concept) and finally you have those, both on and off this forum, whom are rubbing their hands in glee at Verisign’s stupidity……these are the .tv haters, those who have not and will not invest in .tv no matter what the circumstance, and are praying for the extension’s demise just as fervently as most of us here are praying for its success.

I would ask that you be honest enough not to couch your prejudices in the form of a legitimate grouch against VeriSign and then use that as a springboard to attack the extension in general.

 

[Dr. Mindwrecker]

My stance on the "renewal prices subject to change" wording in the TOS is that it is indeed an issue that needs to be resolved and if VeriSign thinks that this is something that they can slip under the radar, they are sadly misinformed, and can expect a fight on their hands in the form of both individual and class action lawsuits, which, besides destroying VeriSign’s reputation, would also be the final nail in the coffin of the .TV ext..

My message to VeriSign is simply this: you will make more from annual renewals of a successful extension than you will from the subject to change price increases from the handful of .tv website owners who decide to stick with their .tv.

Now on to other observations……there are those like Antonis, Exclusively.tv and Mr Rhee, whose opinions, concerns and posts regarding the renewal pricing policy are based upon sound reasoning and judgment and it reflects pretty clearly in what they write and how they come across……..

Then there are the irrationally exuberant, like Mindwrecker who for some reason cannot seem to grasp the issue at hand, then you have Hasrob, who has a beef with the overall concept of premium pricing and yearly renewal fees ( try buying any keyword .com and that may bring you to an understanding of the premium pricing concept) and finally you have those, both on and off this forum, whom are rubbing their hands in glee at Verisign’s stupidity……these are the .tv haters, those who have not and will not invest in .tv no matter what the circumstance, and are praying for the extension’s demise just as fervently as most of us here are praying for its success.

I would ask that you be honest enough not to couch your prejudices in the form of a legitimate grouch against VeriSign and then use that as a springboard to attack the extension in general.

Why is my name and my personal info being mentioned, and why am I being called irrational?

I dont have a problem with premium prices, and when everyone got upset about the renewal discrpenecy, I simply said "People should relax, im sure it will be straightened out soon" as in the company just relaunched, not all will be perfect just after a few days, and then I was attacked by MrRhee as if all my recent posts are out of line.

Quinn has already told as that the "Buy it now price is what you will pay in renewal fee's"

And I seem to remember Equity a few months back, stating that the "prices subject to change" is a standard in these domain contracts. (equity please confirm, I think you said this around the time of the Pets.TV issue.

The issue I am really concerned with is why people can not extend there name years on premiums right now? I dont think that is right.

 

[TheBulldog]

From my point of view.....we have only heard one response: Enom/Demand Media. They are soundly pointing the finger at Verisign. Verisign, as some posted earlier stated that they do not set the prices beyond standard regfee, that is up to the company running the extension.

Now that contradicts what enom/demand are saying which is that verisign sets these outrageously high fees.

I want to know the answer to which one is telling the truth before I get worked up over registration fees because quit frankly, whichever one is telling the lie is who needs to be put on the fire. If Demand is running the show and putting the prices up that high, it would certainly explain why you can't get a straight answer out of them.

I want to state for the record that I am not a fan of verisign at all, but I really don't believe they set the fees this high. Especially considering that there were names on the market that suddenly turned premium recently. That tells me that it is ENOM/Demand that is really in control here. And it also concerns me.

 

[MillersCrossing]

Why is my name and my personal info being mentioned, and why am I being called irrational?

Mindwrecker,

I have edited your first name out, had no idea that it was a secret, so my apologies there.

But your name is being mentioned along with everyone else's name I mentioned. You have commented quite alot on the Verisign issue, and I was referring to that...

Irrational exuberance is a term often associated with the stock market, where prices rise without good reason and was coined by Alan Greenspan.

In a similar vein, IMHO, aswell as a few other members, you were simply missing the point completely and seemed all too happy with things as they are whilst ignoring the real point at hand. Thus Mr Rhee was not attacking you, he was trying to explain to you what you were not getting....

 

[virtuali]

Hi All,

I agree that all of this is very unsettling. Escpecially for those of us that have thousands of dollars invested in .tv. But I would like to give the powers that be the benefit of the doubt atleast for the next couple of months and see how these issues are rectified. If the price gauging and lack of clarification continues I think all of us here know where the extension is heading and we can all move on to bigger and better things if that is the case. JMO.

 

[equity78]

MW what I was talking about with PETS.tv was the Registration agreement and taking back a domain in the first 30 days.

Secondly Showbiz Verisign runs the registry and they set Premium Pricing. What enom has is the ability to do this:

Verisign Cost for LLL.tv $500 OK Verisign set cost
ENOM we marked certain LLL up to $1000 or $5000 or $7500 example NFL.tv so IF enom can sell that domain they make more money then the regular LLL at cost.

Thirdly there will be no lawsuits so lets please stop with that non sense Verisign runs .tv which as a cctld is not governed by ICANN so they can set a policy of Renewal Pricing can change. Does that suck? yes. Do I agree with it ? no I have contacted Verisign

But you can do it.... example if Namepros was a PAID forum RJ/DB can say membership $10 for a year Renewal pricing subject to change that is legit. Would people not join? some. Guess what I joined Afternic years ago for $9.95 they change the price to $19.95 sucked but legit.

So lets stay to the topic and not argue of legitimacy.

 

[Dr. Mindwrecker]

MW what I was talking about with PETS.tv was the Registration agreement and taking back a domain in the first 30 days.

Yes I remeber that part but I could of sworn the issue about prices subject to change was discussed.

Either way you are right, we dont have control over it and this would be true for any ccTLD run by a company? They can change prices all the time.

 

[antonis12]

Equity,

I do agree with you that I do not think any one is at the stage to be discussing legal action right now. First of all and most importantly, Verisign has not *actually* changed anyone's pricing, so there is no harm that has been done to anyone at this stage. LOL Second, I truly believe the common-sense right answer here is to find a model where Demand Media, Verisign and potential site developers all have a reasonable possibility of profitably developing and growing the extension. So let's see how that evolves.

However, regardless of ICANN, the situation is not as one-sided in Verisign's favor as you think.

While in theory it might be the case, in practice, a one liner "Terms and Conditions can change" buried in a service agreement is not an unlimited license to repudiate commitments/statements Verisign employees made to 2006 and before registrants of premium domains.

To take your example. If Afternic had said: "If you sign up during this special promotion, you have $9.95 pricing for life" and then 3 months later said "Just kidding. It is $19.95 I had my fingers crossed behind my back in the service agreement, but thanks for paying up" that is not an automatic free pass legally for them.

Courts have been all over the map on this topic, but, for example, courts have disallowed some shrink-wrapped software license agreements that they found to be abusive and in the financial services world there have been many cases where customer reps have said one thing to customers and slipped in different terms in the signed documents where you have seen courts intervene and repudiate the written docs. Finally, you have deceptive marketing statues too. Of course Verisign is going to tell you that they can do whatever they want, whenever they want, but they were playing very close to line last year, IMO, telling every single registrant on this board that if you reg at X, you can renew at X.

Now, for any post May 1st registrations, I believe DM and Verisign ARE in the clear because they are being open and honest both in writing and when you speak to them in person. They are saying "we can't guarantee what pricing will be next year"

Fair enough, they are making their choice of business model. A not particularly smart choice, but you can't save people from themselves. One should act accordingly, including taking them at face value which, currently is, you are not buying very much when you buy a premium .tv.

Cheers,

Antonis

 

[equity78]

Antonsi my point was only to the May 1 regs I agree the others were locked in and if you notice you can add registration years for those domains I was only talking about May 1 Premium domains

 

[antonis12]

Antonsi my point was only to the May 1 regs I agree the others were locked in and if you notice you can add registration years for those domains I was only talking about May 1 Premium domains

In which case, we agree completely then.

 

[MillersCrossing]

In which case, we agree completely then.

Let me turn this into a threesome by saying that I am also referring to Verisign using the subject to change clause retroactively.

Going forward they can do what they like but as Antonis has said, the response from savvy investors will be to stay the hell away.

I regged two $500 names on May 2nd. I probably would have regged a few more yet, but luckily was alerted to the problem with the subject to change clause on this forum.

 

[TheBulldog]

So who actually sets the VERY high prices if Verisign doesn't? That would imply that whoever that is(Enom/Demand) are the ones gouging.

 

[equity78]

SHOWBIZ for the 3rd time VERISIGN Verisign owns and runs the DOT TV registry they set a cost price for example LLL.tv $500 LL.tv $1000 for some $10,000 for others based on I don't know what logic but that's their crazy pricing.

So the cost for a LLL.tv is $500 NFL.tv obvious tm is $7500 so Demand Media has marked up the price which IMO means Demand Media makes more off their deal with Verisign then the basic $500 Premium LLL

 

[StoneRoses]

I have been thinking about this subject a lot since the issue came to light.
Here is how i see it.

I appreciate that Verisign set the pricing to DM and using Eqs example they say Pets.TV is $500 per year to DM, DM then add there cut on and sell out at $10,0000 to us for example.
Thats fine and DM then make a nice profit,i also understand that as in all businesses,prices are subject to fluctuation, again thats fine, imo.

My point is that DM are looking make .tv a popular and most of all a CREDITABLE extension, and this uncertaintity is damaging the prospect of this happening at a crucial stage in the growth of the extension.

In my business raw material costs rise and we have to pass this on to our customers,the customers are rarely happy but if i can justify the rises with facts and figures they accept it,i appreciate that domain names are not raw materials but in any business if prices are hiked up this is then passed down the line and is an accepted way of business( as long as we can justify the increases),however DM are possibly making huge sums and roi from these names, i would guess over 1000% in a lot of cases and Verisign adding 10-15% on their prices to DM does not justify DM adding 10%-15% on theirs to us.
I have used pets.tv as an example below to show that every time Verisign put up their prices to DM,this could possibly be used as an excuse to make huge profits on top of their huge profits on registration.

Pets.TV price from Verisgn to DM per year $500
Pets.TV price from DM to public per year $3000

Profit for DM $2500 per year

Verisign increase to DM of 10% price to DM now $550 per year

DM increase to public of 10% price to public now $3300

So now DM are making even more profit, what i am trying to say is that whilst price increases are to be expected,if we are to pay these increases then they have to be justified.
10% from Verisign to DM should not mean 10% from DM to us.

Prices increases from the supplier are not an excuse to make extra profit on an already hugely profitable business.

I have no problem paying price increases as long as these can be justified.


Disclaimer
Any statements or figures stated are used only as possible examples and should not be taken to be fact in any way.

 

[equity78]

Well Stone If I own a product I don't have to justify price increases. I mean my comcast cable went up they did not say let us justify it. They did not give me more channels or upgrade network just increased prices.

What I have always thought is registrars and registries have read all these stories over the last couple years in Business 2.0 and DN Journal etc........ and they say people are making more and more money with domains so we want to make more money too. Do I agree with Verisign ? no but I think it is human nature.

I mean ask a person Do you want the price of a movie to go up ? NO, Do you want the price of Gas to go up ? NO, Then ask them what they do ? Oh I sell Real Estate, then ask them Should the price of Real Estate go up ? YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

 

[StoneRoses]

I see your point Eq, however i bet your cable only went up by maybe 5-7%, had it gone up by 10-15% would you have been on the phone to them asking "why the hell has it gone up this much"?

That said however, i suppose it is all about competition, you could quite easily go to another cable company ,but in the case of premiums we have nowhere else to go, because they have a monopoly on the premium names.
Which is a topic for another thread i guess some day.

 

[Argos]

Unless I am out of service or obsessed by the sentence, I do remember that the great sentence "renewal prices subject to change" was part of the .TV Corp agreement when they were in charge of the .tv boutique. I do not know whether it was located in 'Terms of Conditions' or 'Policies' but I am quite sure it was specified on the site.

Between 2002 and today all my prem renewal fees are still at the price I regged the names, some have even decreased thanks to a series of discounts. Although I am not really worried about the renewal issue but more on how DM is so pretty good at shooting itself in the foot, and I see in the present case another serious communication mistake from them making total confusion for something that could have been immediately and easily explained/cleared, customers and investors reassured... a pity at the time of the relaunch of the extension and another demonstration that marketing and communication are real jobs.

 

[StoneRoses]

I am pretty sure you are right Argos and this may well be much ado about nothing, i think i was concerned that the sentance could have been open to abuse from DM, but to be fair to them, the way they gave Cybertronic a refund when they really didn't have to has shown great customer service imo.
I think it has been widely said that the t&c are the same on all extensions,and that few people actually read them when they buy a dot com ot any other extension, its just they have been highlighted on .tv because of the larger reg fees.

 

[eyedomainous]

My stance on the "renewal prices subject to change" wording in the TOS is that it is indeed an issue that needs to be resolved...

I would ask that you be honest enough not to couch your prejudices in the form of a legitimate grouch against VeriSign and then use that as a springboard to attack the extension in general.

Last week at the .TV Launch / Always On Hollywood event a few folks did approach me with some negatives on .TV. But when I scratched beneath the surface I found that to the person they did'nt/don't like the ICANN Verisign domain deal and they Really don't like the rise in .com prices. They expect Verisign to push the limit on .com increases over the term of the contract... and being .commies -they, and I for that matter, don't like that one bit!!

As far as the .TV "renewal price subject to change" flare-up/controversy... first put in context with what I just said. Second, I think it should be pointed out that "subject to change" could well mean a price reduction. Makes sense to me. .TV has been going down in price as .com goes up. Perhaps they will find a happy medium. The again, I could be dreaming.... of the day when .TV and .com are the same price (and the True #1 extension is finally revealed) :hehe:

 

[RogueWriter]

Second, I think it should be pointed out that "subject to change" could well mean a price reduction. Makes sense to me. .TV has been going down in price as .com goes up.

Actually, and my numbers may be off a bit, here, I'm sure EQ can correct me on this, but the numbers of 'premiums' when Verisign was running things was a few thousand. That number escalated to over 53K domains priced at the 'premium' amount now that DM has entered the mix.

While you can get a standard reg fee .TV for $24.95 from enom.tv, a lot of the juicy domains have had their price tag increased by 1,000% or more.