NamesCon2020

Deadbeat Megathread

Labeled as alert in Warnings and Alerts started by Rob Monster, Sep 23, 2019.

Replies:
41
Views:
2,848

?

Do we need a Deadbeat reporting thread on NamePros?

  1. Yes, definitely

    56.4%
  2. Yes, perhaps

    21.8%
  3. Maybe, maybe not

    1.8%
  4. Probably not

    7.3%
  5. Definitely not

    12.7%
Total: 55 vote(s)
  1. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO Gold Account VIP

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    The industry is maturing and new people are coming into it from around the world. At the same time, scammers are getting more sophisticated. Some of them use real, valid credit cards but then initiate chargebacks after cashing out their bogus sale. Some of these folks apparently think nothing of using their real identities to engage in blatant crimes -- digital shoplifting.

    Unfortunately, the domain industry does not have a viable law enforcement. In order to mature, the industry has to become effective at self-policing, and self-correcting. In a world of growing wealth inequality, there will be more people doing desperate things. This is regrettable, and cannot be tolerated since it makes it harder for everyone to do business, and puts a bad light on the industry. I would like to see a constructive solution.

    For calibration, last month alone, Epik had more than $10,000 in writedowns from 4 Indian domainers who worked together on a single scam involving cash-out to BTC. They know who they are. We have given them a month to sort themselves out and replace the funding source but with no remedy. I think we need a thread where this nonsense gets exposed so that more folks don't get scammed, and so that thugs leave the industry.

    I am thinking something like this:

    - Allow the deadbeat a reasonable time to fix their error, e.g. at least 7 days but preferably 30 days.

    - Give them plenty of fair warning that they will be exposed.

    - Bring incontrovertible evidence of the crime and the criminal.

    - Allow the information to be retracted/edited once the crime has been corrected.

    What do you think?
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
    The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
  2. Don Gondon

    Don Gondon Established Member

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    I think such people should be reported to their countries' authorities. And/or payment providers they use.
     
  3. equity78

    equity78 Top Member TLDInvestors.com TheDomains Staff PRO Gold Account VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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  4. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO Gold Account VIP

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    I am talking about a managed thread which enforces some basic standard/process. I see people cry wolf all the time, and turns out it is a wrong accusation. That is not helpful.

    It may be require something unique, but this would need to be a moderated thread that makes sure people are not wrongly accused, and also gets people off the list when they fix their error.
     
  5. equity78

    equity78 Top Member TLDInvestors.com TheDomains Staff PRO Gold Account VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Well that would be up to @Paul Buonopane @Support Team and the NP legal team for if and when they have to defend themselves in a right to be forgotten lawsuit, defamation suit, etc...
     
  6. Dave

    Dave Top Member VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Will take to DM
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  7. Mister Funsky

    Mister Funsky Top Member VIP

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    Yes do it...just as you describe.

    If needed, make a stand alone site...maybe even a small fee to have access to the data (I for one would pay a nominal monthly/yearly fee) that everyone from a first time seller to a pro could use. Untested buyers (no verifiable track record) should have to put up a fee (100, 250) that could be used with an insurance product (thinking of one of your other projects) to ensure the seller is not left in the cold.

    Maybe do a credit system so it wouldn't be unfair to the little guy and the big guy will pay his share. Put me down as someone that would be willing to work on this and/ or an insured broker solution.

    EDIT: No gov or agency needed...let it be domain investor (domainer) operated and driven
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  8. MrAcidic

    MrAcidic Account Auto-Closed Gold Account

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    Off the top of my head, reach out to Interpol, Cyber Crime Division and discuss the domain industry, make them aware of the problems being faced and look at educational and partnership opportunities.

    Good thing is it is a global organisation.......

    https://www.interpol.int/en/Crimes/Cybercrime
     
  9. JB Lions

    JB Lions Top Member VIP

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    What you posted before you deleted it, would never happen.

    ----------------------

    There is already existing law on this type of stuff. Fraud/scams are against the law.

    We already have deadbeat reporting threads here at Namepros. It's as simple as adding a post or starting a new thread. You can do that right now.

    Simply read this forum:
    https://www.namepros.com/forums/warnings-and-alerts.90/

    Deadbeat! "Purple"

    Latest Deadbeat

    You literally have the word deadbeat in the title of threads, along with stolen, warning, be careful, beware, hijacked etc. It already exists.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  10. NameDeck

    NameDeck Design. Develop. Deploy. VIP

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    Rob, I know you mean well but this is something that cannot be implemented easily. How would we judge 'incontrovertible' evidence?

    Giving people time to right their wrong to prevent them from being publicly exposed? That's just plain wrong. That sounds like extortion to me.

    The system you described will eventually give the entity running it power that can easily be abused and who's to govern it? What if identities get stolen? What if I end up in a database unknowingly?

    As you're a host as well I'm pretty sure you know about fraudrecord. How's that working out? Sure it does the job to some extent but I'm very well aware of the downside and dangers that comes with 'authorities' like that. Same goes for spamhaus and others. I'm not even going into privacy issues as that would require it's own thread.

    Since people really seem to want a place where they can expose scammers this is the only somewhat decent way to go. Create a members only club, so we can blame and shame all we want in private.

    From what I read in your proposal you're suggesting to create some authority that is judge, jury and executioner. That's a no go for me. Never.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  11. AGAME

    AGAME optimalnames.com Gold Account VIP

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    I like the idea of an industry coming together to protect each other from fraud and the latest scams. I saw this working in retail way back in the early 1980s in a mall. The mall management would have a weekly meeting and reps/managers from each store could go. Many did, especially the anchor stores. They'd discuss what happened in the previous week, what was resolved, what was still outstanding... It definitely helped curtail crime but it never stopped it.

    I think something along those lines would is necessary in our world. Mind you though, that meeting was private - not open to the public. The faces / photos / descriptions of the perps were not made public. It was internal to the mall retailers and their associates.

    So if its here then it needs to be in a private section or if its online / stand alone site then it needs to be by verified domain investor login.

    Also, consult an attorney (I am sure you are/have already)... You cant call someone a criminal unless a court convicts them of such even if they did steal from you. Has to go through the system so they're suspects until such time I would gather..... Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  12. NameDeck

    NameDeck Design. Develop. Deploy. VIP

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    And at this point, when 'proven' not guilty the damage to this person has already been done. Now who's gonna right that wrong?. You could potentially destroy people credibility. Who's gonna make these people whole?
     
  13. NameDeck

    NameDeck Design. Develop. Deploy. VIP

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    And the bigger the gap gets the more authority the wealthy claim to suppress the less fortunate. The more wealthy people take their resort to desperate measures.

    Eventually the less fortunate are the ones to suffer from blacklists and entities that act as judge, jury and executioner. Basic history.
     
  14. NameDeck

    NameDeck Design. Develop. Deploy. VIP

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    Enough of the criticism :) I'm actually glad you bring this up as maybe it's an opportunity to let debates like this for once come to a conclusion.

    I'm curious what NP's stance is on this matter, if they care to comment at at all.
     
  15. offthehandle

    offthehandle . Gold Account VIP

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    I think you might reassess your business process. Why take Int’l credit cards or bitcoin on transactions over $2000.-5000.?

    Why not force a wire transfer? Personally we never accepted credit cards with my business over that limit internationally, that was 25 years ago. What has changed with international scamming? I got those laughable Nigerian Prince letters hand typed in the early 1990’s, pre internet. We discovered after answering 100’s of inquiries in the 3rd world, 99% were time wasters. Later we then never answered RFQ faxes from many of those Countries you seem to want to help out that are of high risk. The risks or perhaps worse with bitcoin now. Sure these “emerging” economies are somewhat more wealthy now, but risk management is business 101.

    Purchase order, Invoice and Prepaid wire transfers, no exceptions. Problem solved.

    Post it on your website, or create a website like the other projects you are working on and send a link here. I would imagine you could or someone could start and keep a businesses and individual dba’s as a domainer private and subscriber only database, like D&B does. Or require D&B registration before accepting orders, not sure if they do International. The US Gov requires small businesses register with them to get their number before getting a CAGE code and of course to qualify them and as a screening service.
     
  16. Dodo Domains

    Dodo Domains Established Member

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    I'm involved in several online businesses. This is true across the board.

    The credit card companies will always side with their customer over a merchant.

    I agree with offthehandle about taking a wire transfer for high value or high risk transactions.
     
  17. lolwarrior

    lolwarrior Founder, Brands.International VIP

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    Very good points indeed.

    Imo we all need to remember simple fact (which is also a law here at EU) - when someone do something, they are seen as not guilty until court of law verdicts they are guilty. So we have court of law to verdict on guilt, we do not do it by ourselves.

    Even those found guilty, they do not loose their legal rights - which are, among others, rights to privacy and personal data protection (GDPR legislation - a more serious violation can result in a fine of €20 million), right to be treated fairly and with dignity, and literally dozens of other basic rights we all posses. By posting identities/personal data in "name and shame" threads online, one might violate those rights (in specific cases).

    Also, now apart from the GDPR stuff (and I am not a lawyer, just my personal opinion): I would personally never condition posting of someone's data online by "you need to do this or that in a specific time period"... at least this is what my common sense tells me, and common sense can spare us from many problems in life :)

    So what to do when someone scams you (and how to get rid of scammers in domain industry effectively):

    A) if you think there has been criminal conduct done online, you record everything to have as much evidence as possible, hire lawyer at country where person is residing, and local laywer will submit the case and cooperate with local police, which is far the most effective way to ensure the case is dealt with efficiently.

    B) if no criminal conduct was done, but you have business dispute and you think another person owns you something (money), you record everything to have as much evidence as possible, hire lawyer at country where person is residing (or in person's personal jurisdiction, it is not always the same), and lawyer will submitt the lawsuit to local court of law, which will either rule you are right, or you are not right. If you are right, you will get verdict for some financial amount, which you can then legally execute.

    This way, you respect all legal rights of person (which is extremely important, as you do not want to create your own legal liabilities during the process), while you make sure your own legal rights are respected as well.

    In many cases (particularly in B, and when person is financially or otherwise in much weaker position then you are), it is sometimes best to forget whole thing, and appreciate beauty of simple life. But in this case, "bad guys" can scam another people again.
    So .. not easy to say what is best to do.

    In summary, no global initiative to "help domain industry from scammers" is possible imo because of various legal aspects - it needs to be done on 1-2-1 basis, which is lenghty, time and money consuming process ... but interesting idea was brought up anyway :)

    PS : even idea of "privacy club" is not viable as I see it.. again, GDPR will prevent that, imo, unless you make 100% sure you are processing/storing only non EU data (not realistic). But even then, who knows what is data protection legislation in other countries ..
     
  18. wwwweb

    wwwweb Top Member VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Not taking credit card payments is the kiss of death modern day. With high risk transactions I suggest locking domain, and payouts down for 30 days. Sad to see a few people ruining it for many once again.

    With the increasing prices in this industry, it is disgusting to see all these snakes slithering in, and trying to game small benefits that help legitimate domainers.
     
  19. Tia Wood

    Tia Wood Business Website Consultant VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    I think you mean we’ll but we already have a warnings area. Plus your case scenario is not typical.
     
  20. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO Gold Account VIP

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    There is some great, and thoughtful input on this thread -- really great.

    When posting threads like this, I sometimes sit back and let folks have their say without trying to moderate. I am reading, listening, and distilling. I am often thanking people for their input as statement of appreciation.

    A few comments:

    - Sites like ComplaintsBoard.com, RipoffReport.com and PissedConsumer.com have been around for a long time. They do serve a purpose -- they represent a sort of digital karma.

    - I noticed Google not ranking these private sites nearly as highly -- favoring state and federal agencies instead, and BBB. Those sites are far from perfect. The whole category could use a search engine...

    - As with rating sites like TrustPilot.com, Yelp and Google reviews, they can be gamed and brigaded. It is one of the reason why Epik is building an alternative -- TrustRatings.com

    - The domain industry is very niche. We have cross-border institutions like WIPO and ICANN, but when it comes to transactional fraud, we have nothing. Trademarks? Sure. Stolen domains? Nope, not really.

    - GDRP does matter. It quite possibly does mean putting Personal Info behind a login that is subject to Terms of Service and Acceptable Use.

    - Due process does matter. So, no, @lolwarrior, I am not proposing something that would play fast and loose there. However, who wants to hire a $2500+ lawyer to collect a $2500 theft? The scammers know it.

    - US law protects freedom of search. Warts and all. So, under US law, I believe someone could present what they consider incontrovertible evidence and could be rebutted. Checks and balances.

    - I did review the Deadbeat threads on NP. They have no teeth. My issue was the lack of standards. We have standards for posting a domain wanted or domain for sale. There is standard for posting an alert.

    In the meantime, based on a quick poll check, although we have a relatively small sample size, a majority are in favor. It will be interesting to see how the poll proceeds as folks engage the dialog.

    The main question is whether NamePros will provide a framework, with the consequence that people who scam can be restricted or banned entirely. There are ToS, but the process for flagging abuse is not clear.

    I do believe that the community that solves governance and standards, will be able to scale as it onboards tens of thousands of new participants from places where rule of law might vary very widely..

    @Paul Buonopane or @Eric Lyon might comment.
     
  21. JB Lions

    JB Lions Top Member VIP

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    So the 4 Indian domainers who scammed you are NP members?

    What do you mean standards, specifically. Why can't you go ahead and start a thread here? Or handle it legally. Why would NP handle your scammer issues for you? I'm really not understanding what you want from NP.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
  22. wwwweb

    wwwweb Top Member VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    I say call them out by name, no way they are going to pay because they fear no recourse there, always been the issue. I say let real Indian based domainers deal with these clowns in India directly, maybe they will see real justice then.
     
  23. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO Gold Account VIP

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    Sure, they are presumably NP members, or were. We have the full Validation.com profiles with the buyers pictures and government issued ID. It is incontrovertible, and flagrant.

    The point I am making is much bigger than Epik's fraud case. Let's face it, most people don't have the vast anti-fraud counter-measures that we put in place. We were thorough.

    If fraud is allowed to continue without consequence, we will end with a lawless community and a lawless industry. That would be bad news for the asset class.

    @Jess Robison has been in contact with the fraudsters. They will be outed shortly. US free speech allows it, and I am comfortable with our level of due diligence, and due process.

    However, again, the issue is larger, and I am looking for something that will scale for the benefit of all lawfully-engaged industry participants.
     
  24. JB Lions

    JB Lions Top Member VIP

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    Still no specifics on what you want. You can out them here. NP can ban them. You can take legal action on them.

    In plain English, what else are you looking for?

    "If fraud is allowed to continue without consequence"

    What do you want besides what's already available?
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
  25. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO Gold Account VIP

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    JB -

    It is quite clear:

    - I am looking for input on a scalable framework for self-policing.

    - I am looking for input as to whether NamePros will play any role in designing and applying a framework.

    You have this habit of repeating yourself when the answer was plainly explained. It is not an endearing quality. Too often, your combative rhetoric muddies your intellect. Pity.
     

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