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alert Deadbeat Megathread

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Do we need a Deadbeat reporting thread on NamePros?

  • This poll is still running and the standings may change.
  • This poll is still running and the standings may change.

Rob Monster

Founder of EpikTop Member
Epik Founder
Impact
18,389
The industry is maturing and new people are coming into it from around the world. At the same time, scammers are getting more sophisticated. Some of them use real, valid credit cards but then initiate chargebacks after cashing out their bogus sale. Some of these folks apparently think nothing of using their real identities to engage in blatant crimes -- digital shoplifting.

Unfortunately, the domain industry does not have a viable law enforcement. In order to mature, the industry has to become effective at self-policing, and self-correcting. In a world of growing wealth inequality, there will be more people doing desperate things. This is regrettable, and cannot be tolerated since it makes it harder for everyone to do business, and puts a bad light on the industry. I would like to see a constructive solution.

For calibration, last month alone, Epik had more than $10,000 in writedowns from 4 Indian domainers who worked together on a single scam involving cash-out to BTC. They know who they are. We have given them a month to sort themselves out and replace the funding source but with no remedy. I think we need a thread where this nonsense gets exposed so that more folks don't get scammed, and so that thugs leave the industry.

I am thinking something like this:

- Allow the deadbeat a reasonable time to fix their error, e.g. at least 7 days but preferably 30 days.

- Give them plenty of fair warning that they will be exposed.

- Bring incontrovertible evidence of the crime and the criminal.

- Allow the information to be retracted/edited once the crime has been corrected.

What do you think?
 
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The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
Two of the domain industries biggest DeadBeats::

Brian Royce
JiaewqZN_400x400.jpg


Rob Monster
n3iUiBQH_400x400.jpg


More info::
https://www.namepros.com/threads/th...terbucks-wallet.1284050/page-182#post-8828387
 
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The guy fully figured the weaknesses of the industry and took complete advantage of it. Was fine even exploiting the faith to the full extent.

Talking about the Lord while picking their pockets. Unbelievable.
 
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Hello,

Historically, namePros has done a few things:
  1. Behind the scenes, namePros works with certain members, bloggers, and companies (Including a large bureau of investigations ;)) to collectively research, stop, and seek justice for fraud committed within the industry.
  2. Publicly, namePros only comments on fraud that took place here and sometimes I have released information to help prevent it from happening again.
  3. Technologically, namePros implements some of the best anti-fraud in the industry, which is why for a site that is completely free to register without any KYC or member verification requirement (E.G., namePros doesn't require sending a text code to your cell phone to sign up), despite all that, there are only a handful of incidents each year. That is largely due to the security systems at namePros that are very effective and world class.
  4. The namePros community (Members) are skilled researchers and when incidents do happen, they tend to uncover a lot publicly which I think dissuades some scammers from trying anything here.

Hope that helps,
 
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ah, the irony ... the hyprocisy...

Unfortunately, the domain industry does not have a viable law enforcement. In order to mature, the industry has to become effective at self-policing, and self-correcting. In a world of growing wealth inequality, there will be more people doing desperate things. This is regrettable, and cannot be tolerated since it makes it harder for everyone to do business, and puts a bad light on the industry...
 
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I think such people should be reported to their countries' authorities. And/or payment providers they use.
 
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If fraud is allowed to continue without consequence, we will end with a lawless community and a lawless industry. That would be bad news for the asset class.

It’s already lawless and full of bad apples and issues, it starts at the top too with some of these companies. Shills, bid bots, partnering in auctions, brandable skewed searches with inside traders, touts, phony get rich schemes, clown courses, domainer tv, etc. These issues are much worse than that one transaction. I sympathize with you, and not dismissing the loss you incurred, but the bigger picture is not pretty.

I am glad you have taken the interest in working on a integrity system, but you also recently told me you don’t want to be the Sheriff. I have made it my amusing hobby here to call things as I see them. Often topics I comment on are unpopular, but I am not here for Dale Carnegie practice. Common sense, and business ethics can’t be taught, either you have them or you don’t.

All of the people on this forum posting that get involved here discussing with you their input are all decent people, I don’t think anyone who has a good trader rating would spoil it. The scammers don’t post here afaik. I trust this forum and system, and appreciate the work the mods do to keep things straight.

Plenty of things could be cleaned up.

https://www.namepros.com/threads/conspiracy-thread-free-for-all.1152476/#post-7381823

Don’t believe me, Look at Ricks tweets:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/wh...nge-in-domain-investing.1144774/#post-7310509

Btw, did you get your check when Chocolate supposedly sold for 7 figures?
Hopefully you did, and if not you might follow up.

https://www.namepros.com/threads/wh...-and-rob-monster.1128748/page-92#post-7362136
 
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What do you think?

Yes do it...just as you describe.

If needed, make a stand alone site...maybe even a small fee to have access to the data (I for one would pay a nominal monthly/yearly fee) that everyone from a first time seller to a pro could use. Untested buyers (no verifiable track record) should have to put up a fee (100, 250) that could be used with an insurance product (thinking of one of your other projects) to ensure the seller is not left in the cold.

Maybe do a credit system so it wouldn't be unfair to the little guy and the big guy will pay his share. Put me down as someone that would be willing to work on this and/ or an insured broker solution.

EDIT: No gov or agency needed...let it be domain investor (domainer) operated and driven
 
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Rob, I know you mean well but this is something that cannot be implemented easily. How would we judge 'incontrovertible' evidence?

Giving people time to right their wrong to prevent them from being publicly exposed? That's just plain wrong. That sounds like extortion to me.

The system you described will eventually give the entity running it power that can easily be abused and who's to govern it? What if identities get stolen? What if I end up in a database unknowingly?

As you're a host as well I'm pretty sure you know about fraudrecord. How's that working out? Sure it does the job to some extent but I'm very well aware of the downside and dangers that comes with 'authorities' like that. Same goes for spamhaus and others. I'm not even going into privacy issues as that would require it's own thread.

Since people really seem to want a place where they can expose scammers this is the only somewhat decent way to go. Create a members only club, so we can blame and shame all we want in private.

From what I read in your proposal you're suggesting to create some authority that is judge, jury and executioner. That's a no go for me. Never.
 
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American Greed here we come. I can’t wait!
 
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I am talking about a managed thread which enforces some basic standard/process. I see people cry wolf all the time, and turns out it is a wrong accusation. That is not helpful.

It may be require something unique, but this would need to be a moderated thread that makes sure people are not wrongly accused, and also gets people off the list when they fix their error.
 
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Will take to DM

What you posted before you deleted it, would never happen.

----------------------

There is already existing law on this type of stuff. Fraud/scams are against the law.

We already have deadbeat reporting threads here at Namepros. It's as simple as adding a post or starting a new thread. You can do that right now.

Simply read this forum:
https://www.namepros.com/forums/warnings-and-alerts.90/

Deadbeat! "Purple"

Latest Deadbeat

You literally have the word deadbeat in the title of threads, along with stolen, warning, be careful, beware, hijacked etc. It already exists.
 
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this would need to be a moderated thread that makes sure people are not wrongly accused, and also gets people off the list when they fix their error.

And at this point, when 'proven' not guilty the damage to this person has already been done. Now who's gonna right that wrong?. You could potentially destroy people credibility. Who's gonna make these people whole?
 
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What do you think?

I think you might reassess your business process. Why take Int’l credit cards or bitcoin on transactions over $2000.-5000.?

Why not force a wire transfer? Personally we never accepted credit cards with my business over that limit internationally, that was 25 years ago. What has changed with international scamming? I got those laughable Nigerian Prince letters hand typed in the early 1990’s, pre internet. We discovered after answering 100’s of inquiries in the 3rd world, 99% were time wasters. Later we then never answered RFQ faxes from many of those Countries you seem to want to help out that are of high risk. The risks or perhaps worse with bitcoin now. Sure these “emerging” economies are somewhat more wealthy now, but risk management is business 101.

Purchase order, Invoice and Prepaid wire transfers, no exceptions. Problem solved.

Post it on your website, or create a website like the other projects you are working on and send a link here. I would imagine you could or someone could start and keep a businesses and individual dba’s as a domainer private and subscriber only database, like D&B does. Or require D&B registration before accepting orders, not sure if they do International. The US Gov requires small businesses register with them to get their number before getting a CAGE code and of course to qualify them and as a screening service.
 
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Rob, I know you mean well but this is something that cannot be implemented easily. How would we judge 'incontrovertible' evidence?

Giving people time to right their wrong to prevent them from being publicly exposed? That's just plain wrong. That sounds like extortion to me.

The system you described will eventually give the entity running it power that can easily be abused and who's to govern it? What if identities get stolen? What if I end up in a database unknowingly?

As you're a host as well I'm pretty sure you know about fraudrecord. How's that working out? Sure it does the job to some extent but I'm very well aware of the downside and dangers that comes with 'authorities' like that. Same goes for spamhaus and others. I'm not even going into privacy issues as that would require it's own thread.

Since people really seem to want a place where they can expose scammers this is the only somewhat decent way to go. Create a members only club, so we can blame and shame all we want in private.

From what I read in your proposal you're suggesting to create some authority that is judge, jury and executioner. That's a no go for me. Never.
Very good points indeed.

Imo we all need to remember simple fact (which is also a law here at EU) - when someone do something, they are seen as not guilty until court of law verdicts they are guilty. So we have court of law to verdict on guilt, we do not do it by ourselves.

Even those found guilty, they do not loose their legal rights - which are, among others, rights to privacy and personal data protection (GDPR legislation - a more serious violation can result in a fine of €20 million), right to be treated fairly and with dignity, and literally dozens of other basic rights we all posses. By posting identities/personal data in "name and shame" threads online, one might violate those rights (in specific cases).

Also, now apart from the GDPR stuff (and I am not a lawyer, just my personal opinion): I would personally never condition posting of someone's data online by "you need to do this or that in a specific time period"... at least this is what my common sense tells me, and common sense can spare us from many problems in life :)

So what to do when someone scams you (and how to get rid of scammers in domain industry effectively):

A) if you think there has been criminal conduct done online, you record everything to have as much evidence as possible, hire lawyer at country where person is residing, and local laywer will submit the case and cooperate with local police, which is far the most effective way to ensure the case is dealt with efficiently.

B) if no criminal conduct was done, but you have business dispute and you think another person owns you something (money), you record everything to have as much evidence as possible, hire lawyer at country where person is residing (or in person's personal jurisdiction, it is not always the same), and lawyer will submitt the lawsuit to local court of law, which will either rule you are right, or you are not right. If you are right, you will get verdict for some financial amount, which you can then legally execute.

This way, you respect all legal rights of person (which is extremely important, as you do not want to create your own legal liabilities during the process), while you make sure your own legal rights are respected as well.

In many cases (particularly in B, and when person is financially or otherwise in much weaker position then you are), it is sometimes best to forget whole thing, and appreciate beauty of simple life. But in this case, "bad guys" can scam another people again.
So .. not easy to say what is best to do.

In summary, no global initiative to "help domain industry from scammers" is possible imo because of various legal aspects - it needs to be done on 1-2-1 basis, which is lenghty, time and money consuming process ... but interesting idea was brought up anyway :)

PS : even idea of "privacy club" is not viable as I see it.. again, GDPR will prevent that, imo, unless you make 100% sure you are processing/storing only non EU data (not realistic). But even then, who knows what is data protection legislation in other countries ..
 
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There is some great, and thoughtful input on this thread -- really great.

When posting threads like this, I sometimes sit back and let folks have their say without trying to moderate. I am reading, listening, and distilling. I am often thanking people for their input as statement of appreciation.

A few comments:

- Sites like ComplaintsBoard.com, RipoffReport.com and PissedConsumer.com have been around for a long time. They do serve a purpose -- they represent a sort of digital karma.

- I noticed Google not ranking these private sites nearly as highly -- favoring state and federal agencies instead, and BBB. Those sites are far from perfect. The whole category could use a search engine...

- As with rating sites like TrustPilot.com, Yelp and Google reviews, they can be gamed and brigaded. It is one of the reason why Epik is building an alternative -- TrustRatings.com

- The domain industry is very niche. We have cross-border institutions like WIPO and ICANN, but when it comes to transactional fraud, we have nothing. Trademarks? Sure. Stolen domains? Nope, not really.

- GDRP does matter. It quite possibly does mean putting Personal Info behind a login that is subject to Terms of Service and Acceptable Use.

- Due process does matter. So, no, @lolwarrior, I am not proposing something that would play fast and loose there. However, who wants to hire a $2500+ lawyer to collect a $2500 theft? The scammers know it.

- US law protects freedom of search. Warts and all. So, under US law, I believe someone could present what they consider incontrovertible evidence and could be rebutted. Checks and balances.

- I did review the Deadbeat threads on NP. They have no teeth. My issue was the lack of standards. We have standards for posting a domain wanted or domain for sale. There is standard for posting an alert.

In the meantime, based on a quick poll check, although we have a relatively small sample size, a majority are in favor. It will be interesting to see how the poll proceeds as folks engage the dialog.

The main question is whether NamePros will provide a framework, with the consequence that people who scam can be restricted or banned entirely. There are ToS, but the process for flagging abuse is not clear.

I do believe that the community that solves governance and standards, will be able to scale as it onboards tens of thousands of new participants from places where rule of law might vary very widely..

@Paul Buonopane or @Eric Lyon might comment.
 
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Hello,

Historically, namePros has done a few things:
  1. Behind the scenes, namePros works with certain members, bloggers, and companies (Including a large bureau of investigations ;)) to collectively research, stop, and seek justice for fraud committed within the industry.
  2. Publicly, namePros only comments on fraud that took place here and sometimes I have released information to help prevent it from happening again.
  3. Technologically, namePros implements some of the best anti-fraud in the industry, which is why for a site that is completely free to register without any KYC or member verification requirement (E.G., namePros doesn't require sending a text code to your cell phone to sign up), despite all that, there are only a handful of incidents each year. That is largely due to the security systems at namePros that are very effective and world class.
  4. The namePros community (Members) are skilled researchers and when incidents do happen, they tend to uncover a lot publicly which I think dissuades some scammers from trying anything here.

Hope that helps,

Thanks for that. I do think NamePros are unsung heroes -- caped crusaders. I have seen it. This is precisely why I think it would be helpful to have NamePros put some structure around submitting fraud reports. You have meta-data about users that others would not have. I do think you have an opinion on this topic based on work done elsewhere, e.g.:

upload_2019-9-23_22-29-51.png


I suggest define some rules around acceptable use for reporting a deadbeat, including the option for reporters to edit or retract once an incident has been addressed. The report can then have threaded comments just for that incident. When the incident is cured/solved, the comments also go way. After all, the mission was accomplished.

I am happy to use this thread in the interim, but it would be great for NP to look into this particular issue with a structured way for reporting, editing, and redacting reports of deadbeats. The problem is far too common. Another NP user just reported a Flippa case here.
 
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Hello,

Historically, namePros has done a few things:
  1. Behind the scenes, namePros works with certain members, bloggers, and companies (Including a large bureau of investigations ;)) to collectively research, stop, and seek justice for fraud committed within the industry.
  2. Publicly, namePros only comments on fraud that took place here and sometimes I have released information to help prevent it from happening again.
  3. Technologically, namePros implements some of the best anti-fraud in the industry, which is why for a site that is completely free to register without any KYC or member verification requirement (E.G., namePros doesn't require sending a text code to your cell phone to sign up), despite all that, there are only a handful of incidents each year. That is largely due to the security systems at namePros that are very effective and world class.
  4. The namePros community (Members) are skilled researchers and when incidents do happen, they tend to uncover a lot publicly which I think dissuades some scammers from trying anything here.

Hope that helps,
One BIG YES to all that!!!!!
 
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I am talking about a managed thread which enforces some basic standard/process. I see people cry wolf all the time, and turns out it is a wrong accusation. That is not helpful.

It may be require something unique, but this would need to be a moderated thread that makes sure people are not wrongly accused, and also gets people off the list when they fix their error.

Well that would be up to @Paul Buonopane @Support Team and the NP legal team for if and when they have to defend themselves in a right to be forgotten lawsuit, defamation suit, etc...
 
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I like the idea of an industry coming together to protect each other from fraud and the latest scams. I saw this working in retail way back in the early 1980s in a mall. The mall management would have a weekly meeting and reps/managers from each store could go. Many did, especially the anchor stores. They'd discuss what happened in the previous week, what was resolved, what was still outstanding... It definitely helped curtail crime but it never stopped it.

I think something along those lines would is necessary in our world. Mind you though, that meeting was private - not open to the public. The faces / photos / descriptions of the perps were not made public. It was internal to the mall retailers and their associates.

So if its here then it needs to be in a private section or if its online / stand alone site then it needs to be by verified domain investor login.

Also, consult an attorney (I am sure you are/have already)... You cant call someone a criminal unless a court convicts them of such even if they did steal from you. Has to go through the system so they're suspects until such time I would gather..... Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
 
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There is some great, and thoughtful input on this thread -- really great.

When posting threads like this, I sometimes sit back and let folks have their say without trying to moderate. I am reading, listening, and distilling. I am often thanking people for their input as statement of appreciation.

A few comments:

- Sites like ComplaintsBoard.com, RipoffReport.com and PissedConsumer.com have been around for a long time. They do serve a purpose -- they represent a sort of digital karma.

- I noticed Google not ranking these private sites nearly as highly -- favoring state and federal agencies instead, and BBB. Those sites are far from perfect. The whole category could use a search engine...

- As with rating sites like TrustPilot.com, Yelp and Google reviews, they can be gamed and brigaded. It is one of the reason why Epik is building an alternative -- TrustRatings.com

- The domain industry is very niche. We have cross-border institutions like WIPO and ICANN, but when it comes to transactional fraud, we have nothing. Trademarks? Sure. Stolen domains? Nope, not really.

- GDRP does matter. It quite possibly does mean putting Personal Info behind a login that is subject to Terms of Service and Acceptable Use.

- Due process does matter. So, no, @lolwarrior, I am not proposing something that would play fast and loose there. However, who wants to hire a $2500+ lawyer to collect a $2500 theft? The scammers know it.

- US law protects freedom of search. Warts and all. So, under US law, I believe someone could present what they consider incontrovertible evidence and could be rebutted. Checks and balances.

- I did review the Deadbeat threads on NP. They have no teeth. My issue was the lack of standards. We have standards for posting a domain wanted or domain for sale. There is standard for posting an alert.

In the meantime, based on a quick poll check, although we have a relatively small sample size, a majority are in favor. It will be interesting to see how the poll proceeds as folks engage the dialog.

The main question is whether NamePros will provide a framework, with the consequence that people who scam can be restricted or banned entirely. There are ToS, but the process for flagging abuse is not clear.

I do believe that the community that solves governance and standards, will be able to scale as it onboards tens of thousands of new participants from places where rule of law might vary very widely..

@Paul Buonopane or @Eric Lyon might comment.

So the 4 Indian domainers who scammed you are NP members?

What do you mean standards, specifically. Why can't you go ahead and start a thread here? Or handle it legally. Why would NP handle your scammer issues for you? I'm really not understanding what you want from NP.
 
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So the 4 Indian domainers who scammed you are NP members?

What do you mean standards, specifically. Why can't you go ahead and start a thread here? Or handle it legally. Why would NP handle your scammer issues for you? I'm really not understanding what you want from NP.

Sure, they are presumably NP members, or were. We have the full Validation.com profiles with the buyers pictures and government issued ID. It is incontrovertible, and flagrant.

The point I am making is much bigger than Epik's fraud case. Let's face it, most people don't have the vast anti-fraud counter-measures that we put in place. We were thorough.

If fraud is allowed to continue without consequence, we will end with a lawless community and a lawless industry. That would be bad news for the asset class.

@Jess Robison has been in contact with the fraudsters. They will be outed shortly. US free speech allows it, and I am comfortable with our level of due diligence, and due process.

However, again, the issue is larger, and I am looking for something that will scale for the benefit of all lawfully-engaged industry participants.
 
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I voted probably not for the reasons that various people have already outlined.

I wonder though, if there is reason to consider it from the opposite side. That is some sort of a list of reputable domain buyers and sellers, with clear criteria to get in that list. Then the danger someone takes in doing something wrong is that they would drop out of that list.

Now some would still choose to do deals, especially small ones, with those not on the list, but above some level perhaps most would not.

I would think to be included in a directory of positive sellers would require at least
  1. Full disclosure of real identity.
  2. Some minimum amount of time in domain investing.
  3. A record of successful transactions (like the trade reviews here, but on a wider scale).
  4. No reported infractions that a third party deemed warranted.
  5. Agreement to a code of professional conduct for domain investors.
  6. Membership in NamePros.
Now the down side is that someone would need to run the system and there would be some cost no doubt.

Now already with the careful work that NamePros do with respect to transactions gone wrong and investigating complaints, and keeping the trade reviews etc., I think we are close to it already. If someone has been on NamePros for the better part of a year, has done some transactions and gotten positive reviews, I feel OK dealing with them.

Anyway, just a Saturday afternoon idea.

Bob
 
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