alert Deadbeat Megathread

[Rob Monster]

The industry is maturing and new people are coming into it from around the world. At the same time, scammers are getting more sophisticated. Some of them use real, valid credit cards but then initiate chargebacks after cashing out their bogus sale. Some of these folks apparently think nothing of using their real identities to engage in blatant crimes -- digital shoplifting.

Unfortunately, the domain industry does not have a viable law enforcement. In order to mature, the industry has to become effective at self-policing, and self-correcting. In a world of growing wealth inequality, there will be more people doing desperate things. This is regrettable, and cannot be tolerated since it makes it harder for everyone to do business, and puts a bad light on the industry. I would like to see a constructive solution.

For calibration, last month alone, Epik had more than $10,000 in writedowns from 4 Indian domainers who worked together on a single scam involving cash-out to BTC. They know who they are. We have given them a month to sort themselves out and replace the funding source but with no remedy. I think we need a thread where this nonsense gets exposed so that more folks don't get scammed, and so that thugs leave the industry.

I am thinking something like this:

- Allow the deadbeat a reasonable time to fix their error, e.g. at least 7 days but preferably 30 days.

- Give them plenty of fair warning that they will be exposed.

- Bring incontrovertible evidence of the crime and the criminal.

- Allow the information to be retracted/edited once the crime has been corrected.

What do you think?

 

[JB Lions]

There is some great, and thoughtful input on this thread -- really great.

When posting threads like this, I sometimes sit back and let folks have their say without trying to moderate. I am reading, listening, and distilling. I am often thanking people for their input as statement of appreciation.

A few comments:

- Sites like ComplaintsBoard.com, RipoffReport.com and PissedConsumer.com have been around for a long time. They do serve a purpose -- they represent a sort of digital karma.

- I noticed Google not ranking these private sites nearly as highly -- favoring state and federal agencies instead, and BBB. Those sites are far from perfect. The whole category could use a search engine...

- As with rating sites like TrustPilot.com, Yelp and Google reviews, they can be gamed and brigaded. It is one of the reason why Epik is building an alternative -- TrustRatings.com

- The domain industry is very niche. We have cross-border institutions like WIPO and ICANN, but when it comes to transactional fraud, we have nothing. Trademarks? Sure. Stolen domains? Nope, not really.

- GDRP does matter. It quite possibly does mean putting Personal Info behind a login that is subject to Terms of Service and Acceptable Use.

- Due process does matter. So, no, @lolwarrior, I am not proposing something that would play fast and loose there. However, who wants to hire a $2500+ lawyer to collect a $2500 theft? The scammers know it.

- US law protects freedom of search. Warts and all. So, under US law, I believe someone could present what they consider incontrovertible evidence and could be rebutted. Checks and balances.

- I did review the Deadbeat threads on NP. They have no teeth. My issue was the lack of standards. We have standards for posting a domain wanted or domain for sale. There is standard for posting an alert.

In the meantime, based on a quick poll check, although we have a relatively small sample size, a majority are in favor. It will be interesting to see how the poll proceeds as folks engage the dialog.

The main question is whether NamePros will provide a framework, with the consequence that people who scam can be restricted or banned entirely. There are ToS, but the process for flagging abuse is not clear.

I do believe that the community that solves governance and standards, will be able to scale as it onboards tens of thousands of new participants from places where rule of law might vary very widely..

@Paul Buonopane or @Eric Lyon might comment.

So the 4 Indian domainers who scammed you are NP members?

What do you mean standards, specifically. Why can't you go ahead and start a thread here? Or handle it legally. Why would NP handle your scammer issues for you? I'm really not understanding what you want from NP.

 

[wwwweb]

So the 4 Indian domainers who scammed you are NP members?

What do you mean standards, specifically. Why can't you go ahead and start a thread here? Or handle it legally. Why would NP handle your scammer issues for you? I'm really not understanding what you want from NP.

I say call them out by name, no way they are going to pay because they fear no recourse there, always been the issue. I say let real Indian based domainers deal with these clowns in India directly, maybe they will see real justice then.

 

[Rob Monster]

So the 4 Indian domainers who scammed you are NP members?

What do you mean standards, specifically. Why can't you go ahead and start a thread here? Or handle it legally. Why would NP handle your scammer issues for you? I'm really not understanding what you want from NP.

Sure, they are presumably NP members, or were. We have the full Validation.com profiles with the buyers pictures and government issued ID. It is incontrovertible, and flagrant.

The point I am making is much bigger than Epik's fraud case. Let's face it, most people don't have the vast anti-fraud counter-measures that we put in place. We were thorough.

If fraud is allowed to continue without consequence, we will end with a lawless community and a lawless industry. That would be bad news for the asset class.

@Jess Robison has been in contact with the fraudsters. They will be outed shortly. US free speech allows it, and I am comfortable with our level of due diligence, and due process.

However, again, the issue is larger, and I am looking for something that will scale for the benefit of all lawfully-engaged industry participants.

 

[JB Lions]

Still no specifics on what you want. You can out them here. NP can ban them. You can take legal action on them.

In plain English, what else are you looking for?

"If fraud is allowed to continue without consequence"

What do you want besides what's already available?

 

[Rob Monster]

Still no specifics on what you want. You can out them here. NP can ban them. You can take legal action on them.

In plain English, what else are you looking for?

JB -

It is quite clear:

- I am looking for input on a scalable framework for self-policing.

- I am looking for input as to whether NamePros will play any role in designing and applying a framework.

You have this habit of repeating yourself when the answer was plainly explained. It is not an endearing quality. Too often, your combative rhetoric muddies your intellect. Pity.

 

[JB Lions]

JB -

It is quite clear:

- I am looking for input on a scalable framework for self-policing.

- I am looking for input as to whether NamePros will play any role in designing and applying a framework.

You have this habit of repeating yourself when the answer was plainly explained. It is not an endearing quality. Too often, your combative rhetoric muddies your intellect. Pity.

You have a habit of not being clear.

"scalable framework for self-policing"

What does that mean? We're supposed to self police Indians scamming you?

If this is clear, can somebody else post what Rob actually wants, if you can figure it out. Is this supposed to go endless pages of people guessing.

I am looking for input as to whether NamePros will play any role in designing and applying a framework

Well, they already have a forum for this stuff. But that's not good enough for you since you say it has no "teeth". And we already have existing laws. I guess you already know about liability and why a forum will only go so far. Is this just a setup for yet another Epik product you're thinking of releasing?

 

[oldtimer]

"scalable framework for self-policing"

What does that mean?

Perhaps what Rob means is that he likes to see a unified effort on behalf of the domain Industry to combat fraud.

@Rob Monster , The problem is those who are well established here are not going to scam you and those who steal domains or buy their own domains off of the sales landers and pocket the payment are out of reach or not worth it to pursue across different continents. You just have to put better safeguards and wetting procedures in place to minimize your losses, but some of it just can't be avoided as any one in business knows.

The other alternative is to hire a domain bounty hunter who has gun and will travel

PS: I am already tired from doing so much typing on the other Rob's threads so not going to go back and forth here again.

 

[JB Lions]

Perhaps what Rob means is that he likes to see a unified effort on behalf of the domain Industry to combat fraud.

Well, you used the word perhaps, which means you have no idea what he's talking about either. oldtimer, what do you feel you could have done better to stop those Indian domainers that scammed him? Doesn't make sense does it. I'll do my part.......Please be nice, don't scam people, you scammers. Is he going to post his future deals and maybe we'll do some group thing and then let him know if we're ok with the deal? I have no idea how NP members were supposed to stop those scammers.

 

[Eric Lyon]

Hello,

Historically, namePros has done a few things:

1. Behind the scenes, namePros works with certain members, bloggers, and companies (Including a large bureau of investigations ) to collectively research, stop, and seek justice for fraud committed within the industry.
2. Publicly, namePros only comments on fraud that took place here and sometimes I have released information to help prevent it from happening again.
3. Technologically, namePros implements some of the best anti-fraud in the industry, which is why for a site that is completely free to register without any KYC or member verification requirement (E.G., namePros doesn't require sending a text code to your cell phone to sign up), despite all that, there are only a handful of incidents each year. That is largely due to the security systems at namePros that are very effective and world class.
4. The namePros community (Members) are skilled researchers and when incidents do happen, they tend to uncover a lot publicly which I think dissuades some scammers from trying anything here.

Hope that helps,

 

[Rob Monster]

Hello,

Historically, namePros has done a few things:

1. Behind the scenes, namePros works with certain members, bloggers, and companies (Including a large bureau of investigations ) to collectively research, stop, and seek justice for fraud committed within the industry.
2. Publicly, namePros only comments on fraud that took place here and sometimes I have released information to help prevent it from happening again.
3. Technologically, namePros implements some of the best anti-fraud in the industry, which is why for a site that is completely free to register without any KYC or member verification requirement (E.G., namePros doesn't require sending a text code to your cell phone to sign up), despite all that, there are only a handful of incidents each year. That is largely due to the security systems at namePros that are very effective and world class.
4. The namePros community (Members) are skilled researchers and when incidents do happen, they tend to uncover a lot publicly which I think dissuades some scammers from trying anything here.

Hope that helps,

Thanks for that. I do think NamePros are unsung heroes -- caped crusaders. I have seen it. This is precisely why I think it would be helpful to have NamePros put some structure around submitting fraud reports. You have meta-data about users that others would not have. I do think you have an opinion on this topic based on work done elsewhere, e.g.:

I suggest define some rules around acceptable use for reporting a deadbeat, including the option for reporters to edit or retract once an incident has been addressed. The report can then have threaded comments just for that incident. When the incident is cured/solved, the comments also go way. After all, the mission was accomplished.

I am happy to use this thread in the interim, but it would be great for NP to look into this particular issue with a structured way for reporting, editing, and redacting reports of deadbeats. The problem is far too common. Another NP user just reported a Flippa case here.

 

[offthehandle]

If fraud is allowed to continue without consequence, we will end with a lawless community and a lawless industry. That would be bad news for the asset class.

It’s already lawless and full of bad apples and issues, it starts at the top too with some of these companies. Shills, bid bots, partnering in auctions, brandable skewed searches with inside traders, touts, phony get rich schemes, clown courses, domainer tv, etc. These issues are much worse than that one transaction. I sympathize with you, and not dismissing the loss you incurred, but the bigger picture is not pretty.

I am glad you have taken the interest in working on a integrity system, but you also recently told me you don’t want to be the Sheriff. I have made it my amusing hobby here to call things as I see them. Often topics I comment on are unpopular, but I am not here for Dale Carnegie practice. Common sense, and business ethics can’t be taught, either you have them or you don’t.

All of the people on this forum posting that get involved here discussing with you their input are all decent people, I don’t think anyone who has a good trader rating would spoil it. The scammers don’t post here afaik. I trust this forum and system, and appreciate the work the mods do to keep things straight.

Plenty of things could be cleaned up.

https://www.namepros.com/threads/conspiracy-thread-free-for-all.1152476/#post-7381823

Don’t believe me, Look at Ricks tweets:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/wh...nge-in-domain-investing.1144774/#post-7310509

Btw, did you get your check when Chocolate supposedly sold for 7 figures?
Hopefully you did, and if not you might follow up.

https://www.namepros.com/threads/wh...-and-rob-monster.1128748/page-92#post-7362136

 

[Lox]

... seriously , no doubt someone will leak information and or method, giving away gift card to scammers.​

 

[Paul 11]

Hello,

Historically, namePros has done a few things:

1. Behind the scenes, namePros works with certain members, bloggers, and companies (Including a large bureau of investigations ) to collectively research, stop, and seek justice for fraud committed within the industry.
2. Publicly, namePros only comments on fraud that took place here and sometimes I have released information to help prevent it from happening again.
3. Technologically, namePros implements some of the best anti-fraud in the industry, which is why for a site that is completely free to register without any KYC or member verification requirement (E.G., namePros doesn't require sending a text code to your cell phone to sign up), despite all that, there are only a handful of incidents each year. That is largely due to the security systems at namePros that are very effective and world class.
4. The namePros community (Members) are skilled researchers and when incidents do happen, they tend to uncover a lot publicly which I think dissuades some scammers from trying anything here.

Hope that helps,

One BIG YES to all that!!!!!

 

[Wesley S]

sounds like you need a group private messaging feature, where the group thread can decide whether to expose the person or elicit group or not then bring it forth like a report and let the other person defend publicly or follow the correction. While protecting the identity the whole time because what good would it be with a tainted identity going forth either.

 

[Tia Wood]

JB -

It is quite clear:

- I am looking for input on a scalable framework for self-policing.

- I am looking for input as to whether NamePros will play any role in designing and applying a framework.

I don’t think NamePros is the proper place. They usually don’t get involved with outside transactions and they have their limitations. I think what you want would require too much dev and staff resources for a forum.

Plus, your scenario is not typical, it likely wouldn’t happen outside of a registrar.

 

[imadoer]

Please start the mega game player thread I will contribute every week

 

[wolfis.com]

Doing something is better than doing nothing ... currently there is nothing to really help victims ! ... around 20 years ago I got scammed out of a Hefty sum while buying a domain using escrow.com and even escrow was not safe or even supportive .. after a domain i bought turned out to be stolen and Netsol returned it to the rightful owner within 2 days of me buying it through escrow.com .I ask escrow for support ... for the persons real name and address anything to file a police report but escrow.com refused . Nothing .. no help ... this is why I do not ever use escrow.com again ! They are as much of scammers as the real thief ..

Bottom line : if everyone would do what they are suppose to do .. we would not even have such a big problem with scammers and thieves . ... start one of these support sides and I will support the cause as much as I can .. just like everyone else should support it .

 

[NamesCost]

Who are these people?
and
Where is the shame wizard when you need him?

 

[Haroon Basha]

I love NamePros, and I have been dealing with honorable NamePros members with no issues; so far I have not come across even a single incidence wherein I was cheated by NamePros members. NamePros has a unique image, impeccable image of its pure neutrality, highly discipline and believes and adheres to fair trade policies. There may be a few incidents of frauds for other members, but NamePros has its own combat weapons that will be used against the fraudulent members.

 

[LarryDomain]

I try to only deal with USA buyers. Too many scams coming from countries like India and other third world countries. Only way I sell to them is via crypto! Paypal is the biggest NONO in the world. I will also accept bank transfers. Escrow can be dangerous too..