discuss Beating Dropcatch.com ? Possible ?

[Siddharth W]

Can we beat Dropcatch or Other big Backordering Service if we use 100's of DesktopCatcher or Similiar Software on 100's of 10+ Gb's VPS with 1000's Of API, On a Single Domain? What I think that Dropcatch.com definitely not waste that resource of Single Domain. So, What are chance to succeed acc. to you?

 

[golan]

Well. If you count a cost of 100's of DesktopCatcher's, 100's of VPS, and prefunding 100's of registrar accounts... Then for sure it's cheaper to just go an pay few K's for a domain at Dropcatch.

 

[hwgriffi]

Similiar Software on 100's of 10+ Gb's VPS with 1000's Of API,

Even with all of this you are missing a key fundamental... registrars.

With the DropCatch network of registrars they can fire off tens of thousands of domain requests per second maybe more bro.

You can't build a cost effective system, using registry rate limited API requests, and expect to achieve the same result as they are.

 

[backordr]

Can we beat Dropcatch or Other big Backordering Service if we use 100's of DesktopCatcher or Similiar Software on 100's of 10+ Gb's VPS with 1000's Of API, On a Single Domain? What I think that Dropcatch.com definitely not waste that resource of Single Domain. So, What are chance to succeed acc. to you?

I’d like to chime in here to clear some things up for everyone.

Dropcatch is a domain registrar, and has many registrars in their arsenal. This CAN help them out, but isn't necessarily needed for what they’re doing.

Domain registries offer communications with registrars over the EPP protocol (see RFC 5730,31). Domain names drop at seemingly random times, but it’s a first come first serve basis.

Their arsenal of registrars kinda helps by essentially DDOSing the registries with commands to create the dropped domain name, but any technical person with an understanding of networking can tell you that this is overkill, and can be achieved at the same level with much less resources if you understand the network protocol.

What Dropcatch has done is similar to startup companies who don’t know how to write code at scale, and simply add more servers to deal with traffic. While it works, it’s crazy expensive and leads to a lot of overhead to manage. Think HFT (high frequency trading) for domain names. High concurrency and low latency beat everything else.

So, TLDR, it’s absolutely possible to beat dropcatch.com IF you’re a domain registrar and understand the EPP protocol and also network engineering. You will not beat them using a third party api through another registrar that isn’t designed for drop catching.

 

[FPForum]

It's like many of the others have said - they biggest thing DropCatch has going for them is registrars. With your own registrar you'll have direct access to the registry which can be quicker than using an API like my software does. My software will connect to the registrar, which then connects to the registry, and responds back. With your own registrars (like DropCatch) they are communicating directly with the registry. That's one thing that will make have your own registrar faster. However, the price tag isn't cheap. If I remember correctly, to setup a COM/NET registrar is likely going to cost you several thousand dollars. You can do the math to get an idea of what DropCatch is spending for the hundreds of registrars they have.

DropCatch might not be that old, but Reberry has been doing his own drop catching for years. several years as a matter of fact. I'm not sure how he built up the bankroll to get all those registrars under DropCatch, but it's not like he just entered the game with that company. It's an area he is well-experienced in has been around for a while. There's no reason someone on NamePros couldn't do the same thing. Funds tend to be the biggest reason most people will have a hard time competing, though.

 

[BrandableDomain]

I’m very grateful to Andrew and Jeff Reberry for opening up the DropCatch platform which I believe was originally used exclusively to build up the Huge Domains portfolio.

It’s refreshing to use after so many bad experiences using SnapNames, which I have now abandoned completely.

I have a good success rate at DropCatch because it is a fair and level playing field. It is open to anyone so I don’t understand why anyone would seriously want to “compete” with them. What, to operate your own private domain catching service and exclude everyone else?

Or if someone creates 1,000 new registrars and builds a new and competitive open drop catching service, then we would all have to start backordering in two venues instead of one to maintain our success rates. What would be the point or advantage of that?

The article referenced earlier by @fastcool provides a lot of info about the challenge of building a service.

“Domain drop-catching service DropCatch.com has added five hundred new registrar accreditations to its stable over the last few days.

“The additions give the company a total accreditation count of at least 1,252, according to DI data.”

(DomainIncite. DropCatch spends millions to buy FIVE HUNDRED more registrars. 2 December, 2016.)

DomainIncite also mentions the significant cost of creating 500 new LLC companies to match these 500 new registrars.

A DomainNameWire article about a year earlier said this:

“The company behind expired domain name catching service DropCatch.com has adding 300 more accredited registrars to its arsenal, and now has a whopping 752 registrars. This is according to ICANN’s public list of accredited registrars.”

(DomainNameWire. Wow: DropCatch adds 300 more registrars, now has 752. 9 October, 2015.)

https://domainnamewire (dot) com/2015/10/09/wow-dropcatch-adds-300-more-registrars-now-has-752/

So thanks to Turn Commerce and the Reberry brothers for providing such a fair and valuable resource.

 

[BrandSac]

short story: no, you have zero chance.

long story: in january 2018 i decide to build my own dropcatching service (p.s. am high skilled programmer with strong academic background), after spending some time reading about domain life cycle testing programing languages benchmark for this project, i deiced to use golang (programing language created by google in 2009) and after couple months of developing, the essential functionality was ready to start working on full automation, in one month of running i catched 0 domain (p.s. i was targeting only very high quality .com), after analyzing data this is what i found:
Best case scenario my system was slow by 80 milliseconds (the server where my application was hosted is in virginia close to verisign servers because every milliseconds it counts in this game).
They catched approximately 95% of my recommendation list.
I was using verisign public whois, dropcatch have private access to more than 1500 registrar.

 

[Kate]

I was using verisign public whois, dropcatch have private access to more than 1500 registrar.

Their whois server is not real-time, it may be off by 5 minutes at least, you just don't stand a chance working like this. Snap speed is measured in milliseconds.

I dont think services are checking whois, they try to register domains directly and widely.

Indeed, they use the EPP protocol:
check domain and if available: register domain.

Is it really the registrars that choose when a domain is "let go"? That sounds like the job of the registry to me.

Indeed. When the domain goes to redemption status it is beyond the control of the registrar. It can still be redeemed though but at a price.

 

[golan]

Or if someone creates 1,000 new registrars and builds a new and competitive open drop catching service, then we would all have to start backordering in two venues instead of one to maintain our success rates. What would be the point or advantage of that?

Competition is always good for consumers.

 

[FPForum]

@Dave I think you're cost estimates are probably fairly accurate. For someone looking to get in that deep at this point in time would be a bit risky. @golan DropCatch is certainly raking in the money, but think of the cost it would take to set everything up, and how long it would take to return all of that. Not to mention you're still competing with DropCatch, SnapNames, NameJet and other smaller registrars. I can't remember if VeriSign does renewals for registrars, but it wouldn't surprise me. With hundreds of registrars that's now another yearly cost you might have to factor in. Not to mention company renewals for each of your registered businesses which the registrars are under each year. It's like @Kate just mentioned - such a large setup could become hard to maintain. More and more of the *best* names that dropped before aren't dropping again. I think people these days are much more aware of what they have, and always keeping the more premium-type names renewed. For a setup like DropCatch or NameJet to keep that huge machine running I would imagine they need their fair share of $XXXX auctions. The few hundred dollar auctions are nice, but with the bills they probably have each year I imagine they need those big auctions too. Not to say something like an LLL.com won't ever drop again, but for those places it's probably important great names like that which can bring them several thousands of dollars in one auction continue to drop for them to grab. Once those dry up and they're sales are mostly around the $500-$1k range there might not be enough to sustain hundreds of registrars in your arsenal. I'd be a little curious what the average auction price is for DropCatch right now. I'd be even more curious what it is in comparison to 5 years ago. More? Less?

@BrandableDomain I hear what you're saying. Before DropCatch came around it was pretty much NameJet and SnapNames grabbing all the top-notch names dropping each day. Even with all the problems and shady practices SnapNames had they were still getting great names and if you wanted one you had to give them your business. Competition is nice like @golan said and that's exactly what DropCatch brought, some real competition. At this day in age it's the two old places that are now needing to play catch up to the newer company that had a solid plan, put it into motion, and essentially become the best at it. Props to the Reberry family!

 

[D Haynes]

Already DC doing this, I've participated an auction on GD but lost, later i can see that domain transfered to "NB / TurnCommerce" listed for sale on hugedomains(so i believe the last bidder is DC).

Slowly killing the game for the little man. Even average names are out of my price range now due to the big boys taking the prices up.

 

[BrandSac]

How is your experience with "Go lang" and are you using your own icann accreditation?

Public whois is rate limited so can't use for backorders(correct me if I'm wrong)

Go lang is very attractive programing language when's you get the philosophy behind it, and it's very fast i mean very very fast it's the best backend programing language i ever use, for the frontend the standard templating engine have a long way to go, unfortunately am not in the financial zone where i can own icann accreditation (cost $4k year) i did use verisign public whois protocol and like you said there is limitation (max 1000 request per minute after that you get banned but temporary few minutes).

It's good you have hight programming skills; but how many registrars did you own? That's the key question.

As i mentioned earlier dropcatch is dominating only because there +1500 registrars that have direct access to there api.

I think you might need a bit more than one server to provide the service that you wanted to provide.

owning more than one server will certainly augment your capacity to check public whois but because it's not private direct access, you will be always one step behind them, owning a lot of icann accreditation will be your only solution.

 

[Hypersot]

You have zero chance of competing with Dropcatch or a similar service using a program like desktopcatcher.

 

[golan]

once i was nearly beat Dropcatch, successfuly catched a .org domain and hold it for a week but DC approached the PIR, the registry hold the domains for few days for investigation, after the investigation they gave the domain to DC

What a shit story, bro...

 

[davidc1]

Do not forget that backordering services choose how they'll use their ressources for catching domains. If multiple people backorders the same domain and put money on domains in the past they will decide to put power on it.

 

[FPForum]

@Dave it wasn't the initial cost of 1 registrar I was speaking of. It was the cost of setting up several hundred of them. I know for some registries they only allow 1 registrar per "company" as well. That means setting up a new company for each registrar, setting up the registrar, and then as mentioned the catching system. Overall, to really compete with DropCatch, it's going to be very, very, very expensive.

 

[Dave]

@Dave it wasn't the initial cost of 1 registrar I was speaking of. It was the cost of setting up several hundred of them. I know for some registries they only allow 1 registrar per "company" as well. That means setting up a new company for each registrar, setting up the registrar, and then as mentioned the catching system. Overall, to really compete with DropCatch, it's going to be very, very, very expensive.

Yes, I think you'd need at least $5 million to even consider competing at a bare minimum. Maybe closer to 10 million.

I honestly can't see where the return would come from with that kind of investment to be honest. I would look at investing in other things if I had that kind of money for sure.

 

[Kate]

At the same time Pheenix dropped most of their registrars, clearly the game was no longer cost-effective for them. The same could happen to DC at some point.
That game doesn't look sustainable in the long term.

 

[backordr]

.com has a drop order provided by the registry and it's not random as you have mentioned. It won't happen with your current setup...... Perhaps you just know about cc tlds? You really think companies like dropcatch and snapnames invest millions of dollars instead of considering network engineering? LOL . Try beating them.... Don't get me wrong; I don't like them at all.

I never definitively admitted domain names drop at random times. I know .com isn’t random. I also know that the protocol to create domain records doesn’t care how many requests were made. If the request comes in at a time after the domain drops, that request is respected.

Speaking from personal experience, you’d be surprised what goes on behind the scenes at large companies. Assuming they have all their ducks in a row and are the best of the best is a poor assumption at best. They absolutely can be beat, and it can absolutely be done in an intelligent fashion, rather than a simple brute force approach.

 

[E-Promote]

Absolutely enjoyed this thread, thought I would add some food for thought when it comes to "the little guy" which is 99% of us. You either have time or you have money (big $). If you have much more time than you have money then focus it on what will get the best returns with little risk.

The existing drop catching services offer you little risk, but you have to put in the time to research what is worth going after. You can dream all day, all week all month, all year long how you are going to join the big boys even though you don't have anywhere near the $ or the experience to actually pull it off and as you spend your time dreaming you are allowing the main leverage that you have to go to waste: time.

The juicier days seemed to have passed, but there are waves here and there that you can catch if you continue to show up and grind away. I used to be able to count on 10+ decent names a day, these days it's closer to 1-2 on average, but that is still stacking wins and it is 1-2 more than I would have had if i just sat around wasting time.

 

[golan]

100's of DesktopCatcher

andrew, the dc owner,

Andrew Reberry is the dropcatch.com owner

Now it's clear. I thought you were talking about Andrew from DesctopCatcher, dc = DesctopCatcher as well, and it was mentioned in the OP.

something is really not right or fair

where he get that money come from?

I don't see anything not right or unfair here. Any person can find money or find investors or take business loan. And found a registrar, or 1K registrars like Dropcatch did. What's unfair with this?

 

[DomainChat.net]

I don't see anything not right or unfair here. Any person can find money or find investors or take business loan. And found a registrar, or 1K registrars like Dropcatch did. What's unfair with this?

dropcatch.com created about 2015
in 2016 http://domainincite.com/21309-dropcatch-spends-millions-to-buy-five-hundred-more-registrars

- if anything is right or fair, is there another person in namepros, can repeated what he did? since almost all of us want this, including the OP
even he is usually beating the very old player, namejet & snapnames, can you explaining this?


- so any clue how much money to acquired 1000 registrar?
- any clue who is the investors or business loan that want to loan above amount of money, for this industry?

 

[Dave]

That's one thing that will make have your own registrar faster. However, the price tag isn't cheap. If I remember correctly, to setup a COM/NET registrar is likely going to cost you several thousand dollars.

That isn't the problem. $4k is nothing really, and if it was only that many here would setup their own. The problem comes with the fact that one must have $500,000 in working capital, in a company name, and can prove it.

Thanks

 

[DomainChat.net]

That isn't the problem. $4k is nothing really, and if it was only that many here would setup their own. The problem comes with the fact that one must have $500,000 in working capital, in a company name, and can prove it.

Thanks

ah so requirements to be an ICANN registrar is just paying about $4K + $500,000 in working capital, in a company name?

i will creating 1 registrar someday, but looks like its hard enough to create the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or acquiring others

 

[bsdomains]

What a sh*t story, bro...

It is not a sh*t story bro it's TRUE bro

 

[imadoer]

At the present time no one can beat dropcatch. I try to avoid the whole backorder system because of how monopolized it is