What's going on with Epik and Rob Monster?

[MapleDots]

I'm catching the tail end of this, seems to be some kind of controversy...

https://domaingang.com/domain-news/rob-monster-off-twitter-after-christchurch-massacre-controversy/

Must be something odd to evoke this type of a response from one of our members.

 

[Slanted]

I have a problem with the current posturing of Epik as a warrior for free speech.

The way I see it it has never been about free speech. I see a two-fold objective:

1. alt-right propaganda under the guise of free speech, and conspiracy theories in general
   
2. to promote Epik products and services

Epik is broader than just Rob. In my role at Epik, and in my conversations with Rob, this has always been a matter of registrar neutrality, due process, and free speech. My public comments on that topic stretch back several years before I joined Epik.

In in my case, nobody can say that I'm engaged in "alt-right propaganda" since I am vocally opposed to the alt right and always have been. That is a matter of public record. Likewise, I criticize rather than share conspiracy theories.

Rob decided to build tools at Epik to combat censorship. It's reasonable to assume that he did this – at least in part – because he is sincerely concerned about censorship. If he also attempts to sell the services that he has invested in creating, that doesn't mean that this is all about greed. People sincerely create things and then try to sell them, and that doesn't undercut or disqualify their non-financial motives for creating them.

Does Rob spread alt-right propaganda "under the guise of free speech"? Well, it's an objective fact that Gab.com, a forum associated with the alt right, was facing a censorship / de-platforming campaign. GoDaddy wasn't going to service the domain name any longer. Any registrar that accepts such a domain, preventing the site from being censored, would be doing on so on free-speech grounds. That is the rational case for allowing such a website to continue to exist even if its content is offensive.

Using the phrase "under the guise of" implies that it's a pretense, a lie. But all signs point to the fact that Rob is actually sincerely concerned about censorship.

Let me emphasize a point: A person can be sincerely interested in preventing censorship AND at the same time agree with offensive views that are at risk of being censored. That doesn't imply that the free-speech position of Rob or Epik is false or phony.

The real issue isn't about Epik's defense of free speech, which is real. It's about Rob spreading alt-right propaganda. Let's be clear about that.

 

[oldtimer]

Racism is a kind of Free Speech, people have the right to be Racist in their personal lives, but most choose not to same as they might choose not to offend others. In a free society you can not pick and choose when, where, and how people can exercise their rights unless there is a law or rule that does that for certain circumstances and certain environments. So what it comes down to is what level of respect and importance the society as a whole gives to those who take their rights to the extreme to offend others. As long as a society follows common sense based on logic, compassion, and universal rights and values then those who promote Hate will always be looked at as undesirable and their pointed words towards others will lose its sting. Members of a certain race, gender, religion, ethnicity, or nationality who are being offended by a fringe group will not become emotionally scared if they know that the society as a whole takes their side and is supportive of them. IMO

 

[carob]

GoDaddy wasn't going to service the domain name any longer. Any registrar that accepts such a domain, preventing the site from being censored, would be doing on so on free-speech grounds.

No, the site's content could continue to exist - uninterrupted - using another domain. It happens.

Accepting the domain was not necessary to prevent censorship of the site's content or maintain its continuity. So perhaps accepting the domain was about gaining business, and possibly about saving someone else from losing their investment in the domain, which had cost a lot of money. Yes that is of interest to domain investors as an investing and rights issue.

If the domain had no registrar to take it, it would drop and go to a dropcatching auction. Expensive for the owner to recover it that way. Would it be cheaper to pay a willing registrar a premium to take the controversial domain?

 

[carob]

Epik is broader than just Rob.

How?

 

[Bernard Wright]

I disagree. Controls on unmitigated migration would have had enormous effects on many scores of people throughout history. Unmitigated migration "now" is pushed by those that feel threatened, and those who fear losing something. Those that believe they are "better".

I'll bite. I've never engaged in this topic so this will be a learning experience. I think you seem decent and guided by principle. I look forward to learning from this discussion.

First question. How do you conclude that one who opposes unmitigated immigration is by default of the impression that he/she is better than the migrants?

 

[DaveX]

I'll bite. I've never engaged in this topic so this will be a learning experience. I think you seem decent and guided by principle. I look forward to learning from this discussion.

First question. How do you conclude that one who opposes unmitigated immigration is by default of the impression that he/she is better than the migrants?

I respect you as well.

It is my opinion that efforts to "mitigate" migration, are based on fear, elitism, and protectionist beliefs.

Rob mentioned moving to Sweden. Should he be denied that right?

We should discuss why only "some" people should have the right to migrate.

Most people wouldn't be where they are if their migration had been mitigated.

 

[Internet.Domains]

The bottom line is that when you run a business, it's not good business to get involved in politics or you are going to alienate people.

A few companies that have been "involved in politics."

Google
Amazon
GoDaddy
Nike
Under Armor
Chik-Fil-A
In-N-Out Burger
ESPN
The entire Entertainment industry

Ohhhh boy I have to stop now because this list can go pages.........

 

[Bernard Wright]

First, Sweden. Whether Rob, or you, or anyone is welcomed to migrate to any country should be at the discretion of the members of that country. I think that if Rob spoke Swedish, and German, and he had a large sum of funds deposited at a bank in Sweden, and he had studied Swedish culture and was equipped to assimilate into Swedish society, he would stand a better chance of being accepted into that country. He also would stand a better chance of contributing to that country economically once being accepted. He would likely create less social tension among the Swedes, who would respect him for his desire to uphold their traditions. I believe Rob has children. Let us assume that he does. Given Rob's commitment to his new status as a resident of Sweden, and his long track record of alignment with Swedish societal and cultural norms, Rob's children will, in turn, be very likely to hold less resentment against Sweden for any shortcomings they are faced with, as Rob leads by example and is a good steward of how one should respect the Swedes and appreciate the Swede's acceptance into their country. Lastly, on the topic of Sweden, Sweden is rather socialist. I will turn this now onto myself. If I were to ever move to Sweden, I would not expect the school system to modify their curriculum to account for my child's enrollment whatsoever. The Swedes pay a lot in taxes, and those taxes should go to services that best serve their Swedish communities.

Keeping it personal, I speak a foreign language. The language I speak is that of a country with strong tradition and a points-based immigration system. I believe such a system is the best way to ensure that those who are accepted into the country are of a mindset and a capability so as to contribute to the society of that nation in a fruitful manner. I don't speak Swedish, and if I were to be denied immigration to Sweden I would suggest that those who had been granted acceptance were not in fact better than me, they were better equipped. And I am better equipped for the country for which the language I speak.

It is my opinion that efforts to "mitigate" migration, are based on fear, elitism, and protectionist beliefs.

I agree that there is fear and protectionism at the core for most, and elitism for some, but I do not ascribe any of those traits to another individual without just cause. The reasons for which any individual derives their beliefs is complex and nuanced.

 

[TheBaldOne]

I think people have misread Rob Monster's comment when they say he is thinking of moving to Sweden. The post I read (the link is below, from page 21 of this thread) clearly states 'Switzerland', I of course could of missed another post or indeed a post on another thread.

And remember that just because Epik might move to Switzerland does not mean either he (and his family) or other members of staff would move there also, though it is indicated that the CTO might.

Epik, as a company, is neutral. We welcome clients of all views who are lawfully engaged to participate on the Internet. And if Epik moves, we are moving to Switzerland. Our new CTO, is eligible for Swiss citizenship and is scheduled to scout for locations in Switzerland right after Cloudfest, now in progress.

One thing Switzerland does have are mountain bunkers which they are keen to turn over to private industry, many of these are indeed now being utilized by tech companies to protect hardware.

However I would warn Rob Monster about taking into consideration that Switzerland is tying itself closer and closer to the EU and their regulatory authority, for instance it is likely before too long that Switzerland could have to implement Article 13 that the EU passed today concerning copyright. (But I am sure he and Epik generally are well aware of these facts.)

 

[frank-germany]

Am I missing something here...?
Why the heck would anybody invite people they disagree with into their home? Or offer to assist them in their activities?

thats I guess what most thought when they saw Rob's Twitter posts

 

[DaveX]

First, Sweden. Whether Rob, or you, or anyone is welcomed to migrate to any country should be at the discretion of the members of that country. I think that if Rob spoke Swedish, and German, and he had a large sum of funds deposited at a bank in Sweden, and he had studied Swedish culture and was equipped to assimilate into Swedish society, he would stand a better chance of being accepted into that country. He also would stand a better chance of contributing to that country economically once being accepted. He would likely create less social tension among the Swedes, who would respect him for his desire to uphold their traditions. I believe Rob has children. Let us assume that he does. Given Rob's commitment to his new status as a resident of Sweden, and his long track record of alignment with Swedish societal and cultural norms, Rob's children will, in turn, be very likely to hold less resentment against Sweden for any shortcomings they are faced with, as Rob leads by example and is a good steward of how one should respect the Swedes and appreciate the Swede's acceptance into their country. Lastly, on the topic of Sweden, Sweden is rather socialist. I will turn this now onto myself. If I were to ever move to Sweden, I would not expect the school system to modify their curriculum to account for my child's enrollment whatsoever. The Swedes pay a lot in taxes, and those taxes should go to services that best serve their Swedish communities.

Keeping it personal, I speak a foreign language. The language I speak is that of a country with strong tradition and a points-based immigration system. I believe such a system is the best way to ensure that those who are accepted into the country are of a mindset and a capability so as to contribute to the society of that nation in a fruitful manner. I don't speak Swedish, and if I were to be denied immigration to Sweden I would suggest that those who had been granted acceptance were not in fact better than me, they were better equipped. And I am better equipped for the country for which the language I speak.



I agree that there is fear and protectionism at the core for most, and elitism for some, but I do not ascribe any of those traits to another individual without just cause. The reasons for which any individual derives their beliefs is complex and nuanced.

Interesting.

I don't think a world where "discretion of the members" is a real and fair solution. Easily leads to corruption and favoritism.

A fair and equally applied policy might be effective. But it would have to be "Fair And Equal To All".

I appreciate your perspective but I do not agree. Human life is human life. Whether one contributes more or less. So a handicapped person can't live somewhere?

In my opinion, all roads lead back to fairness and equality. If a person has committed no crime, they should be allowed to live any where they want.

 

[DaveX]

A few companies that have been "involved in politics."

Google
Amazon
GoDaddy
Nike
Under Armor
Chik-Fil-A
In-N-Out Burger
ESPN
The entire Entertainment industry

Ohhhh boy I have to stop now because this list can go pages.........

@Rob Monster liked this comment so I will try to address it. Certainly companies pursue politics and political agendas that benefit them and their shareholders. That is very different than what we have here.

This is much more like the Pizza Guy that ended up losing his role at the pizza company because of his rogue, racist comments.

Rob's comments and actions leading to this thread have not been about politics so much but rather about a seemingly lack of human decency and sensitivity to centuries of development.

 

[Internet.Domains]

@Rob Monster liked this comment so I will try to address it. Certainly companies pursue politics and political agendas that benefit them and their shareholders. That is very different than what we have here.

This is much more like the Pizza Guy that ended up losing his role at the pizza company because of his rogue, racist comments.

Rob's comments and actions leading to this thread have not been about politics so much but rather about a seemingly lack of human decency and sensitivity to centuries of development.

I am really sorry to hear you view what has been said as, "lack of human decency", etc......

You have always struck me as a nice and caring individual, just as Rob has struck me. Maybe, hopefully, in due time, any misunderstanding will be realized.

Best to you!

 

[Bernard Wright]

I don't think a world where "discretion of the members" is a real and fair solution. Easily leads to corruption and favoritism.

There are migrants who enter countries with the expressed intent, and sole intent, to undermine their politics and destroy the fabric of their culture. You describe a protectionist sentiment among those who do not agree with unmitigated immigration. I believe that this element among the immigrating population is the most subversive and most often-cited element. It is a real element. I will not speculate as to the proportion of such element within the population, but I will acknowledge its existence and I will not downplay its effectiveness, or potential effectiveness, in meeting its objectives.

Corruption is never good. I believe the points-based system is the best remedy to this. It quantifies the precise attributes one must possess in order to be granted acceptance. Even under such a policy, there can be room for asylum among the politically oppressed. Exceptions for such people is a noble endeavor that should not be overlooked. But it is not moral for a third party, in this case a national government, to decide to allow potentially unsafe elements into the population it serves. And it is abhorrent to not only allow such elements in, but to allow an array of elements, including those who cannot participate economically, and require the citizens of the accepting nation to pay for services on behalf of the new members.

\A fair and equally applied policy might be effective. But it would have to be "Fair And Equal To All".

Again, the points-based system does not discriminate. If you meet the point threshold you are generally accepted in, or at least given priority when a quota is instated.

I appreciate your perspective but I do not agree. Human life is human life. Whether one contributes more or less. So a handicapped person can't live somewhere?

Indeed a human life is a human life. As such, a handicapped person is not granted any more rights to survival than a non-handicapped person, to my knowledge. Perhaps they are. I am not an expert on such issues.

In my opinion, all roads lead back to fairness and equality. If a person has committed no crime, they should be allowed to live any where they want.

That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I think it is improper to assert that opinion on your neighbor. I also think it is improper to levy character attacks against those who disagree with that opinion.

 

[Rob Monster]

@Rob Monster liked this comment so I will try to address it. Certainly companies pursue politics and political agendas that benefit them and their shareholders. That is very different than what we have here.

This is much more like the Pizza Guy that ended up losing his role at the pizza company because of his rogue, racist comments.

Rob's comments and actions leading to this thread have not been about politics so much but rather about a seemingly lack of human decency and sensitivity to centuries of development.

As I understand it, Schnatter used the N-word in a role playing exercise. Although I did not really follow the story as it unfolded, there are many commentaries on the topic.

https://www.newsweek.com/papa-johns-founder-says-he-used-n-word-it-wasnt-slur-1024688

I would consider the possibility that some members of Papa Johns Board Directors, or shareholder base, wanted to take the company in a different direction. It happens.

As for Schnatter's apparent potty-mouth, who knows what was actually on his heart. Regardless, I have no doubt that he is contrite.

ICYMI, Schnatter is a Christian. Perhaps God has a different plan for him. And while members of the lynch mob judged him, it looks like his wife stayed with him. I hope they can celebrate that feat in eternity.

 

[Bernard Wright]

@Silentptnr I keep shooting things down and I'm not asking any questions for you to shoot down. I am trying to think of one.

I have made it no secret that I am a proponent of freedom of speech. Yet, even within the realm of what is deemed lawful free speech, there is varying opinion about the degree of dissent that should be allowed to exist within the dialogue. It seems that there is consensus among many that, the law of free speech withstanding, we should come to an agreement as to what is proper speech. That is to say, we should not exploit our freedoms and act immorally. I would like to point out that morals and cultural norms tend to vary among people from various nations. This is an aspect of the present state of the world that I believe is very enriching to those who embrace it. Do you not perceive a likelihood that this variety of cultural norms among geographic locations is due to wane in time if immigration is not mitigated?

I jumped topics mid-stream. I need to run for a bit. I'll be back later.

 

[DaveX]

There are migrants who enter countries with the expressed intent, and sole intent, to undermine their politics and destroy the fabric of their culture.

Yes. Imagine I come to your home, beat you, rape your wife and daughter in front of you, then make you my slave. Sound good to you? It was very real for many people. Be sensitive to it.

As such, a handicapped person is not granted any more rights to survival than a non-handicapped person, to my knowledge. Perhaps they are. I am not an expert on such issues.

They should be granted equal rights Bernard.

I think it is improper to assert that opinion on your neighbor. I also think it is improper to levy character attacks against those who disagree with that opinion.

I agree. I wish Rob would have had the foresight to avoid such controversy.

 

[DaveX]

@Silentptnr I keep shooting things down and I'm not asking any questions for you to shoot down. I am trying to think of one.

I have made it no secret that I am a proponent of freedom of speech. Yet, even within the realm of what is deemed lawful free speech, there is varying opinion about the degree of dissent that should be allowed to exist within the dialogue. It seems that there is consensus among many that, the law of free speech withstanding, we should come to an agreement as to what is proper speech. That is to say, we should not exploit our freedoms and act immorally. I would like to point out that morals and cultural norms tend to vary among people from various nations. This is an aspect of the present state of the world that I believe is very enriching to those who embrace it. Do you not perceive a likelihood that this variety of cultural norms among geographic locations is due to wane in time if immigration is not mitigated?

I jumped topics mid-stream. I need to run for a bit. I'll be back later.

No, i don't.

What I think is that a bunch of people are cozy in their little beds and don't want anyone to rain on their parades. It's BS. When people start being honest, then we can deal with that. Right now, most people are making up BS reasons for protect their cozy little beds.

 

[DaveX]

As I understand it, Schnatter used the N-word in a role playing exercise. Although I did not really follow the story as it unfolded, there are many commentaries on the topic.

https://www.newsweek.com/papa-johns-founder-says-he-used-n-word-it-wasnt-slur-1024688

I would consider the possibility that some members of Papa Johns Board Directors, or shareholder base, wanted to take the company in a different direction. It happens.

As for Schnatter's apparent potty-mouth, who knows what was actually on his heart. Regardless, I have no doubt that he is contrite.

ICYMI, Schnatter is a Christian. Perhaps God has a different plan for him. And while members of the lynch mob judged him, it looks like his wife stayed with him. I hope they can celebrate that feat in eternity.

Interesting you would use the term lynch mob to characterize people that stood up for what they believed. Flawed.

Seems you see yourself as being right or being a victim of wrong doers. One or the other. Not that you could be completely wrong.

 

[DaveX]

@Bernard Wright
I am a proponent of sensitivity, respect, openness, honesty and much more.

@Rob Monster has expressed his personal feelings and I respect that. Let me repeat, I respect that. I absolutely do not agree however.