Unclean hands

[Jaco]

P16 #90 of the Nelson Brady Counterclaims/Defenses PDF (as found here)

... makes a declaration against Snapnames/Oversee of unclean hands

ELEVENTH AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE
(Unclean Hands/In Pari Delicto)
90.
Plaintiffs' claims are barred by the doctrine of unclean hands or in pari delicto

This is interesting. "Unclean Hands" means that one party can't claim against another party, since they were both acting in bad faith. It would be like if two armed robbers robbed a bank, the getaway driver was drunk and crashed during the police pursuit, paralyzing one of the robbers. "Unclean hands" would pretty much prevent that armed robber from getting anywhere in a civil suit against the getaway driver for being drunk.

Here's the Wikipedia article that generally outlines what it means
Unclean hands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Obviously, Halvarez is raising a defense and throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks, so there are any number of angles he could take on this, but it's entirely possible that this hints that Nelson Brady is the tip of the Oversee/Snapnames fraud iceberg. If this were the case, though, I would imagine they would've moved heaven and earth to keep him out of court, so perhaps he's just maneuvering.

 

[dtagr]

I haven't been affected in any way by "Halvarez" but this is truly fascinating stuff.

 

[clarew]

He acted alone....I don't see this sticking.
I just wonder if he will lose all his domains he has acquired illegally.

 

[DubDubDubDot]

he acted alone.

ROFL:ROFL:LOL:ROFL:ROFL
           |
  l   /---------
 lol===       []\
  l    \         \
        \_________\
          |     |
       -------------/
        ROFL COPTER!!!

 

[Erdy]

He acted alone....I don't see this sticking.
I just wonder if he will lose all his domains he has acquired illegally.

Actually the more important bidding fraud happens when the scammer does not end up winning the auction. To understand this you need to understand how proxy bids work. Let me explain:

Let's say the current price of an item is 1000 USD and the increments are 50 USD. Then you placed a bid of 1500 USD. What is going to happen is that the system is going to realise that your bid is too high and it will place a proxy bid of 1050 USD for you. Now the current price is 1050 USD, you are the high bidder and you have a potential bid of 1500 USD which other bidders can't see but somebody with inside access would.

What can happen is that the person with inside access can place a tactical bid which doesn't make him the high bidder but rises your bid to it's highest potential. In this example the person would place 1450 USD. Then the system would automatically rise your proxy bid to 1500 USD and you would end up winning the auction for 1500 USD instead 1050 USD.

It is the aution house who will benefit from this back sweeping practice. This can't be done without inside knowledge. If the system would allow cancelling bids then it could be done.

The reason why I know about this issue is because I used to spend a lot of time on ebay forums. On ebay a bid can be cancelled (at least it used to be when I used it a few years ago). Therefore the seller can open a second account and place a much higher bid (for instance 5000 USD). Now your maximum bid (1500) will be displayed on bidding history. Since the seller has now found out your potential maximum bid he will cancel his high bid and place another back sweeping bid to make you the winner with your highest potential bid.

You might say why would anybody place a much higher bid then needed? Well, the reason is not everybody is around at the auction closing time. So what they do is they place a bid earlier that reflects the highest price they are willing to pay.

 

[Jaco]

The reason why I know about this issue is because I used to spend a lot of time on ebay forums. On ebay a bid can be cancelled. Therefore the seller can open a second account and place a much higher bid (for instance 5000 USD). Now your maximum bid (1500) will be displayed on bidding history. Since the seller has now found out your potential maximum bid he will cancel his high bid and place another back sweeping bid to make you the winner with your highest potential bid.

What makes the domain drop process so ugly is that the auction house owns the property it's selling. It controls every inch of the process- there is no neutral 3d party there to ensure there is integrity in the process, which basically *guarantees* that something like this will eventually occur. With ebay, the auction house is at least partially neutral and has an incentive to ensure the process is clean for all parties. With domain drop houses, the only incentive is acquiring money, liable to whatever internal corporate culture evolves over time.

As I stated before- the world of online poker was much like the world of domain drops, inasmuch as everything was done behind tightly closed doors with no external oversight and dealing with a lot of money. Just as everyone wanted to believe there was integrity in the domain drop auction process, everyone wanted to believe there was integrity in the world of online poker....

... until it was discovered what a lot of people knew would inevitably occur, if for no reason other than simple, human nature. Someone on the inside was cheating.

"Anyone who doesn't know how dirty the domain name business is just doesn't know the domain name business." - Former head of Pool.com, Michael Arrington

 

[Ms Domainer]

*

Of course this is a dirty business, but no one seems to give a damn about shill bidding and all the nefarious deeds going on.

It's best to place proxy bids with a third party sniper, a trick I learned when I was buying jewelry on eBay.

If it's a really important domain, be online and ready to bid in increments. If a domain bid is higher for more than its apparent worth, it's time to bow out.

I don't think this scandal is over; I predict more ugliness and not just at Snapnames.

Added: Jaco, you are spot on; the entire auction process is suspect, and I have no doubt that money and special interests will trump business integrity just about every time.

Why ICANN does nothing is beyond me, so I assume that they are part of the problem.

*

*

 

[Erdy]

I don't think Icann cares about anything. Even if they do they are extremely slow to act on any problem. An example to this was the domain tasting issue. They are also highly political. They mostly care about keeping big corporations happy at the expense screwing ordinary domain buyers or domainers. Rising domain prices is an example to that.

All the TLD's that are introduced during the last few years remind me of the stock market. The big players will create a hype and then off load the goods to the unaware small buyers. It is like a big balloon that will eventually burst.

In my opinion, domains that I register should never become property of the registrar. A domain in most cases, is a name made up by somebody in first place. The registrar doesn't have any contribution in creating that particular name. I made up that name. I thought of it. I put these letters or words together. It's my property. It is fundamentally wrong for them to take ownership of my domain.

What the registrars provide is the registration record of a domain. It is an empty slot, a space to put a domain in. It is not the name itself they provide. I was shocked when I first read godaddy's terms of service. They describe a domain as a service they provide. I was even more shocked when a NP member supported this view.

I also disagree with things like cancelling a domain registration because of incorrect whois info. What I declare as information is my problem. It doesn't concern icann or anybody else.

I think registrars shouldn't be allowed to renew or let somebody else renew a domain other than the previous owner. If this was like that then all expiring domains would drop. We would still have dropcatchers but I don't have a problem with that. It would be much fairer.

Erdinc

 

[Ms Domainer]

In my opinion, domains that I register should never become property of the registrar.

*

Hit.Nail.On.Head.

It's a complete conflict of interest for a registrar to hold names and then hand them over to partners.

*

 

[gemstar]

ROFL:ROFL:LOL:ROFL:ROFL
           |
  l   /---------
 lol===       []\
  l    \         \
        \_________\
          |     |
       -------------/
        ROFL COPTER!!!

:lol:

 

[gazzip]

*

Hit.Nail.On.Head.

It's a complete conflict of interest for a registrar to hold names and then hand them over to partners.

*

I agree, it also gives the current register owner/employee/friend a reason to shill bid in the auctions as they get a share in the sales price, does it happen...I would hope not but it probably does. How could we know for sure ?

...or some like Tucows, they just keep all the good names for themself


.

---------- Post added at 07:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 AM ----------

I haven't been affected in any way by "Halvarez" but this is truly fascinating stuff.

I was in fair few auctions with Halvarez but he rarely bid against me, because I did'nt do much proxy bidding. I lost around $30 so no big deal, but I am pissed he did it.

 

[SlimPickins]

i agree with this! I was really... puzzled that anything I make up/register is, for all real purposes, the "property" of the registrar and not mine..... basically makes me feel like a (non-)hired hand that PAYS to increase the value of THEIR product (through "age" and any development etc) and am left to feel "lucky" in paying to provide this service for them.....

SP

In my opinion, domains that I register should never become property of the registrar. A domain in most cases, is a name made up by somebody in first place. The registrar doesn't have any contribution in creating that particular name. I made up that name. I thought of it. I put these letters or words together. It's my property. It is fundamentally wrong for them to take ownership of my domain.

What the registrars provide is the registration record of a domain. It is an empty slot, a space to put a domain in. It is not the name itself they provide. I was shocked when I first read godaddy's terms of service. They describe a domain as a service they provide. I was even more shocked when a NP member supported this view.

Erdinc

 

[clarew]

:lol:

Stop laughing at me

---------- Post added at 08:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:09 AM ----------

Thanks for the explanation. Now I can see why people want him arrested as well. He didn't end up with the domains...he just made people pay twice as much as they had hoped to pay.
So if you work and can't babysit the auction and bid as needed you have to proxy bid since you won't be home. So there is no way to know the money cost by this unless you went through every trade.

Actually the more important bidding fraud happens when the scammer does not end up winning the auction. To understand this you need to understand how proxy bids work. Let me explain:

Let's say the current price of an item is 1000 USD and the increments are 50 USD. Then you placed a bid of 1500 USD. What is going to happen is that the system is going to realise that your bid is too high and it will place a proxy bid of 1050 USD for you. Now the current price is 1050 USD, you are the high bidder and you have a potential bid of 1500 USD which other bidders can't see but somebody with inside access would.

What can happen is that the person with inside access can place a tactical bid which doesn't make him the high bidder but rises your bid to it's highest potential. In this example the person would place 1450 USD. Then the system would automatically rise your proxy bid to 1500 USD and you would end up winning the auction for 1500 USD instead 1050 USD.

It is the aution house who will benefit from this back sweeping practice. This can't be done without inside knowledge. If the system would allow cancelling bids then it could be done.

The reason why I know about this issue is because I used to spend a lot of time on ebay forums. On ebay a bid can be cancelled (at least it used to be when I used it a few years ago). Therefore the seller can open a second account and place a much higher bid (for instance 5000 USD). Now your maximum bid (1500) will be displayed on bidding history. Since the seller has now found out your potential maximum bid he will cancel his high bid and place another back sweeping bid to make you the winner with your highest potential bid.

You might say why would anybody place a much higher bid then needed? Well, the reason is not everybody is around at the auction closing time. So what they do is they place a bid earlier that reflects the highest price they are willing to pay.