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discuss [Resolved] Domainer Loses $26k On A Stolen Domain!

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Silentptnr

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Darn! Another scam and this time it is an experienced domainer James Booth.

James must have thought he was making a sound acquisition as he transferred approximately 26k to escrow for CQD.com. Instead, after completing the escrow, the domain was taken from his account by the registrar without notification and returned to the "true" owner.

Turns out the person that sold him the domain CQD.com, may not have been the true owner.

Apparently this incident involves several parties including the registrar and the escrow.


Thanks to Theo over at DomainGang for the tip on this.
 
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The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
Jack Han = Zhaozhong Han

Han knew there was a problem. Between friends it may have gone like this...

Jack:
Hey friend, I almost bought a domain but it seemed like maybe it was stolen. It looked good, but I think I was being scammed by a person who was not the owner.

James:
Really? Why do you think it was stolen?

Jack:
Because I tried to ask questions and the answers seemed sketchy. I'm not going to buy it, but if you want it go ahead.

James:
Hell, sounds good to me. As long as the "seller" passes escrow, I'll take it!

End of story.

Something called turning a blind eye to obvious inconsistencies.


Lets hope not, lets hope Rebecca just gets her name back easily and we don't have to think about that.
 
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I wonder if Rebecca could do a UDRP to get the name back fast, maybe she could show common law tm, it's not what the mechanism is supposed to be for but it has been used for theft. @jberryhill or @TheLegendaryJP would know better.


I am not sure that would help or should I say, work. It has issues and James would respond thus not the best mechanism. Good thinking though...
 
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I wonder if Rebecca could do a UDRP
I've seen UDRP cases where stolen domains were returned using UDRP. Not so complicated though (without further domain reselling). In case of UDRP initiated by Rebecca, it is likely that current registrant will respond to UDRP stating he purchased the domain from Rebecca, and the panel will dismiss the case as it is not in scope of UDRP policy, which would be correct, as UDRP panel is not in position to issue subpoenas or deeply investigate hacking etc
 
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Updated "Story so far" (continued from here: https://www.namepros.com/posts/6617209/ )

Part 3 - Where Rebecca (almost) loses the audience
  • Rebecca starts discussing beer, horses, friends in high places, lawyers, plague, and pretty much everything under the sun that it is hard to realize that there is a TV involved in the mix.
  • People who have bought TVs from James say Rebecca is not believable.
  • People who sold TVs to James say Rebecca is not the real name of ...umm.. Rebecca.
  • People who cherish the secret hope of getting free TVs from James say Rebecca never had the TV and is lying.
  • People who hate Rebecca's horses and beer accuse Rebecca of being the actual thief.
Behind the camera - 4
  • James switches on the CQD TV he bought.
Part 4 - Where saviors appear
  • Grilled (https://www.namepros.com/members/grilled.963724/), long thought to be gone, gets resurrected as Mapledots ( https://www.namepros.com/members/mapledots.997903/ ). That too, with Easter right around the corner.
  • Grilled (Mapledots) starts talking. He makes sense to some people.
  • The Legendary TV Guy appears. He shouts at the top of his voice and actually starts making sense to more people.
  • People who listened to Grilled and then to The Legendary TV Guy, now rethink.
  • The Legendary TV Guy shoves the ball into James' court.
Behind the camera - 5
  • Rebecca, seemingly well versed in the art of losing an audience, keeps counting the bottles of beer and recites horses' names when asked to tell the name and model of the stolen TV. Once in a while, she looks up and laughs aloud for no particular reason.
  • James is quietly flipping channels and binge watching drama movies.

Part 5 - Where people exclaim "oh my God she is making sense after all"
  • Rebecca starts posting screenshots of her stolen TV and its bills and transactions.
  • Rebecca still keeps discussing her horses. By this time, most people know them all by their names.
  • Rebecca manages to post details about her TV.
  • Tide turns.
  • A few people (see part 3) still keep grumbling about how Rebecca breaks her eggs on the wrong side and how that is very, very wrong.
  • Rebecca says she knew all along what James and some others were doing - shifting the burden of proof to her.

Behind the camera - 6
  • Google sees a spike in queries for "theory of reversal of responsibility"
  • James finishes binge watching drama movies, and looks at the CQD TV in front of him pensively. He sighs.

(Disclaimer: Do not take any of this seriously - hope you all can come to a resolution acceptable to both parties soon ;) )


TO BE CONTINUED...
 
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You have a serious talent, is it your day job, either way I laughed.
 
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I see what you did there.

(Had to edit my post.)
 
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Well at this point Booth needs to post that screen shot of paying you at escrow.com, silence would speak a thousand words.

I have no doubt about your story thus far, name is stolen as far as I believe unless Booth proves otherwise.

Take care and I am hoping Booth does the right thing here in posting that escrow transaction or simply returning the name.
Well, i don't think Booth needs to post anything here. And to prove anything to you and to us. Yes of course we all are waiting for this soap opera continuation with buckets of popcorn, but James doesn't own anything to you, to us, to NP. If he believes he is a legit buyer, his silence is the best tactics under this wave of shitstorm. The burden of proof is not on him. It's now only Rebecca's turn - to file to police, to feds, etc etc, to sue James, escrow.com, netsol, Yahoo, her hosting company, spider non-silicon invaders from Betelgeuse etc etc. Then the court, and only the court, can establish whether James knew as a fact that the domain was stolen. Not you, and not us.

Sorry, i was born in Soviet Union and know too well how this collective blaming works. Let's leave this level of arguments to campus feminist gender sociology professor snowflakes, not to this forum of entrepreneurs. Sorry if i sound somehow political, i know this forum is not a place for politics. But also not for finger pointing and blaming.
 
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I wonder if Rebecca could do a UDRP to get the name back fast, maybe she could show common law tm, it's not what the mechanism is supposed to be for but it has been used for theft.
Yes UDRP has been used a couple times to recover stolen domains but it does not always work. It can work if the respondent does not answer. Most of the time failure to answer amounts to losing by default. Otherwise this is beyond the scope of a TM issue and UDRP does not arbitrate ownership disputes like those stemming from soured partnerships.

Consider the recent case of jat.com [Link to NP thread]. Even though it looks like the domain name may have been hijacked the UDRP failed because the case was not documented well enough.
But Booth will not let the domain go just like that.
The other possibility (mentioned earlier in this thread) is in rem action in Virginia where the registry (Verisign) is located.
But it is up to @spoiltrider to act on this.

a gal (leat?) from escrow.com called me ( same one who shared the transaction image with me and i shared back with her the email hacking images).
Excuse me in advance, and sorry for adding confusion to this thread. But are you sure the person who called was indeed from escrow.com ?

@TheLegendaryJP has helped people recover stolen domain names, and he sure remembers about that 2-letter domain stolen (the thief ultimately went to federal prison). You remember JP, that DG called you back from a Skype virtual number, impersonating the domain owner to convince you that everything is alright. It was an elaborate ploy.

What I mean here, the information you received over the phone, even the screenshot could be a smoke screen unless you are positive it comes from escrow.com.
 
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@TheLegendaryJP has helped people recover stolen domain names, and he sure remembers about that 2-letter domain stolen (the thief ultimately went to federal prison). You remember JP, that DG called you back from a Skype virtual number, impersonating the domain owner to convince you that everything is alright. It was an elaborate ploy.

What I mean here, the information you received over the phone, even the screenshot could be a smoke screen unless you are positive it comes from escrow.com.

@Kate

Kate I remember like it was yesterday, DG did in fact spoof phone numbers to try and trick me but what he couldn't do is spoof his own NJ accent :) I caught onto that in the first minute and was part of the evidence putting him in jail and actually lead tome uncovering another LL he stole that I had returned as well to the guy in SF I believe. That ploy did not work nor did his fake paypal transactions, busted.

I see what you mean, just like Booth could fake an escrow screen shot, Rebecca could fake or lie about a call, fair enough.

What I like to do though is examine all the evidence as a whole, if I had to negate individuals over the "any document or call can be faked" idea than there would be literally dozens upon dozens of people and hundreds of domains I helped recover still with the thief or resold and resold. If I just threw my hands up in the air and said well I cannot believe anyone because it is possible that all the information provided may be fake then the last 15 years +/- of recovery help would never have existed.

In this case as mentioned above it can hinge of who was paid, right? We are giving Booth the benefit of the doubt, he was duped or his friend he says lead him to the domain was duped, either way. I do not want to believe or believe at this point Booth did anything malicious at all.

If he firmly believed he paid Rebecca then common sense dictates he should have no issue showing her the escrow transaction he claims was done with her. If for some reason he believes Rebecca is making this whole thing up that is another story but I don't think he does or he would gladly show he paid her.

If for any reason he believes he may not have or didn't than he needs to work with her to verify that and return the name.

I certainly gave weight to Rebecca making this whole thing up, agreeing to sale at $25k then claiming it was stolen and tying to recover it, I really did. But when I look at the story as a whole, email changes, added forwarding from an odd email, failure to produce escrow agreement showing she was paid, failure of a first escrow transaction by a buyer because of suspicion, timelines and yes my gut to a small degree I do not believe she did.

I then thought about it logically, would someone risk their domain after 22+ years and likely better offers as the name does exceed a market value of $25k imo with the plan to try and recover it again via this claim it was stolen. Factoring in time, expense and the biggest risk, success. The answer is simply no, makes little to no logical sense.

If our default answer to victims or potential victims to domain theft is now simply, get a lawyer, go to court then the community is lazy. Sometimes that is the only answer I can give people depending on circumstances but in this case, dealing with a long time domain broker with a good name who knows what's what... go to court should not be a default answer.
 
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You have a serious talent, is it your day job, either way I laughed.

No, it isn't my day job. I write occasionally though. Thank you for the compliment :)
 
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If we eliminate the fact that the buyer/current owner is known in the industry, and imagine the current owner is just a consumer, I believe that this would come down to a he said, she said situation.

If this were a he said, she said situation, we would put much more weight into the position of Escrow.com and the Registrar supporting the current owner/buyer.

With that said, I agree with @golan . The current owner has no duty to produce anything. The person crying foul must put together their case and pursue their own recourse legally.

Personally, I can hardly bear reading the comments of the person claiming to be a victim here.

I would not, ever, ever, simply surrender a valuable domain to a person just because they cried loudly or from peer pressure. If I paid 300 or 30,000, it would be mine. I would stay with it until a court of law mandated I surrender it.

Even if the domain was stolen, prove that I stole it or had knowledge of it being stolen. PROVE IT!

Otherwise I think this matter has one end. "Rebecca" rides away into the sunset, or "Rebecca" takes some "legal" action. A court of law decides if "Rebecca" has proven a case.

This is an interesting case study and discussion, but this thread should in no way be construed as a court.
 
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Prove it?

He could in fact he could help prove it either way. If we pause and take into account just the ethical side of it, why wouldn't he be willing to?Why should the potential victim (lets use that term) have to spend time, money and endure emotional stress when Booth could easily help "prove it"? And to add to it why would Booth be happy to get legal advice, pay a lawyer, possibly got to court and endure the stress on his side? Why is that the best first option? It goes both ways.

So far I have only read he bought it, paid $25k and his friend lead him to it, unless I am missing where he claims he knows he paid Rebecca for it?
 
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Prove it?

He could.
He could not. Even if he produced something and we all believed it, "Rebecca" will not accept anything but the domain and she probably would not go away.

We've advised Rebecca and she has no interest in even confirming that she has taken legal action. No police report, no nothing. For all we know she hasn't done anything except rant, tweet, post stuff and make non-sensical, sometimes irrational statements.

James has understandably taken a quiet position with Escrow and NS on his side.

Let's ask ourselves, who has more to lose? I think it is James. Why would he knowingly risk his reputation and business on a single 3L domain. I don't see the motivation.

So, if the domain was a stolen domain, and we trust his "word", then he is potentially a victim too. But he paid for something and possesses it. He has no reason to do anything. Rebecca does.
 
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He could in fact he could help prove it either way. If we pause and take into account just the ethical side of it, why wouldn't he be willing to?

Because he lawyered up right away I believe!
 
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He could not. Even if he produced something and we all believed it, "Rebecca" will not accept anything but the domain and she probably would not go away.

We've advised Rebecca and she has no interest in even confirming that she has taken legal action. No police report, no nothing. For all we know she hasn't done anything except rant, tweet, post stuff and make non-sensical, sometimes irrational statements.

James has understandably taken a quiet position with Escrow and NS on his side.

Let's ask ourselves, who has more to lose? I think it is James. Why would he knowingly risk his reputation and business on a single 3L domain. I don't see the motivation.

So, if the domain was a stolen domain, and we trust his "word", then he is potentially a victim too. But he paid for something and possesses it. He has no reason to do anything. Rebecca does.


I will state this right now, if Booth were to help prove it via showing a screen shot of payment to the rightful owner (no funny emails, names, blocked out info etc) or better put, red flags... I would 110% believe him and use that information and gladly help him prove it. I am not bias in the least, I would go to bat for him as a victim as well.

Absolutely if Booth were a victim he deserves recourse but that does not ethically mean Rebecca should suffer either when he has the power to make her whole. The fight then becomes one between him and the thief. You bet if he provided that info we as a community would help him, no doubt.
 
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I am a law abiding person. I believe that injustices occur every day. Even if I am a victim, I follow the law.

If a court says pay, I pay.

If Rebecca wants this domain, she can offer to buy it. If she buys it, then she can pursue getting compensation for whatever crime she believes was committed against her. She will have the domain and James will have his money.

She might be out the purchase price for a bit, but that might be her only solution.

If it were me, I would have reached out to James, explained the situation, secured the domain if James would sell it, then pursue legal action against the parties who I feel damaged me.

One of the central issues here is that Rebecca did not secure her domain registration properly. If I leave a house vacant and squatters come in and take over guess what....I can't just go there and forcefully remove them. I have to go through a legal process and pay money.
 
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I am a law abiding person. I believe that injustices occur every day. Even if I am a victim, I follow the law.

If a court says pay, I pay.

If Rebecca wants this domain, she can offer to buy it. If she buys it, then she can pursue getting compensation for whatever crime she believes was committed against her. She will have the domain and James will have his money.

She might be out the purchase price for a bit, but that might be her only solution.

If it were me, I would have reached out to James, explained the situation, secured the domain if James would sell it, then pursue legal action against the parties who I feel damaged me.


I am glad to hear you are a law abiding person but there is no law that dictates a person cannot willfully return property they know is stolen. The only person(s) harmed would be the buyer of said stolen property and their fight is then with who sold it to them.

Buying it back, interesting option but in this case would be a travesty. There is no reason for anyone to pursue legal/financial remedy here (again if the name is stolen) in my opinion except Booth. The victim of a domain theft should not have to suffer because the buyer suffered.

Further on if your above mentioned remedy was my personal stance the last 15 years then what I have accomplished would not exist.
 
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Rebecca, in order to secure this domain, it is going to cost you. No way around it. Your mistakes, and we have all had them, will now cost you money.

It stinks when we make mistakes and we have to throw money away to fix it, but it happens.

This mistake is going to cost money to fix. No other way.
 
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I am glad to hear you are a law abiding person but there is no law that dictates a person cannot willfully return property they know is stolen. The only person(s) harmed would be the buyer of said stolen property and their fight is then with who sold it to them.

Buying it back, interesting option but in this case would be a travesty. There is no reason for anyone to pursue legal/financial remedy here (again if the name is stolen) in my opinion except Booth. The victim of a domain theft should not have to suffer because the buyer suffered.
I get what you are saying, but let's be real. We use the word victim, but are we victims if we do not secure our property?
 
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Rebecca, in order to secure this domain, it is going to cost you. No way around it. Your mistakes, and we have all had them, will now cost you money.

It stinks when we make mistakes and we have to throw money away to fix it, but it happens.

This mistake is going to cost money to fix. No other way.


Her mistakes?
The victim of a domain theft is now a person who made a mistake?
You could easily apply your comment to the buyer of a stolen domain as well. Someone who failed to pay the rightful owner, do their due diligence etc, now THAT is a mistake should that be the issue here.
 
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Rebecca seems business savvy, knowledgeable about websites, knowledgeable about domain auction platforms (she had listed the domain) and more. I don't think she is stupid.
 
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If someone buys a used car from a private party, how often do you think the buyer asks to see the ID of the seller to match to the title? The title is all you need.

In my opinion it is the buyer's responsibility to protect their money.

In this case, James did that. He didn't get scammed. He made sure that when he paid, he got the domain.

We usually perform due diligence to be sure our money won't get stolen.
 
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