NameSilo

.O Discussion

Labeled as discuss in Domain Extensions, started by CreativeMedia.us, Apr 6, 2020

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  1. jmaurya

    jmaurya Top Contributor VIP

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    .o :xf.love:
    Bright future. Invest and forget 2 year's how to use or other things ....
     
    The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
  2. Silentptnr

    Silentptnr Top Contributor VIP

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  3. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Top Member NameTalent VIP Gold Account Trusted Blogger

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    No matter one's views, the whole field of alternative domain spaces is an important topic worthy of a thread on the general topic, rather than restricted to one particular extension (or two in a sense I guess :xf.eek:).

    This thread has evolved somewhat to become on alternative spaces and how to resolve them in general, with excellent sharing of information, but the title remains .o Official Discussion. I am not sure if there is any procedure for renaming, @Mod Team Alfa @Mod Team Bravo , or if simply better if someone starts a new thread on the general topic, with a link provided here for continuity.

    If another thread is started, not sure if any procedure for moving some content that refers to other extensions than .o from here to there, but that is probably difficult to do without using the continuity of the discussion.

    @Paul Buonopane . I have really appreciated your technical expertise shared in this thread. Would welcome your comments on best way to facilitate the discussion on alternative extensions going forward.

    Obviously @CreativeMedia.us who started this thread should comment on thoughts re any possible title or nature change to the thread.

    I know many threads do spread out from a narrow original focus to a broader one, so maybe it is fine making no change at all, but thought I would raise the topic.

    Bob
     
  4. ikhub

    ikhub Top Contributor VIP

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    Agreed, now that we have at least three known prominent members @Unstoppable Domains, @Rob Monster and @Shdwdrgn from the alternate namespace segment we can perhaps have a total new category of alt namespace to discuss, trade and enrich ourselves. Not adverse to alt namespace, but feel it necessary to be clearly distinguished.
     
  5. Paul

    Paul CTO, NamePros CTO VIP

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    That's entirely up to the moderators. I was looking for technical clarification from the standpoint of a potential customer, not as a NamePros staff member. I've tinkered with alternate systems over the years and would've gladly paid a $5 convenience fee to easily manage OpenNIC domains alongside my other domains. As someone who's interested in the technical details of DNS, I've always found OpenNIC to be an amazing educational resource and a great way to stay up-to-date on the latest DNS developments, but actually going about getting domains has always been a pain.

    In general, I don't want to promote or favor any specific alternate system. The concept of alternate systems isn't new, but the push for them to go mainstream is. As a programmer and security professional, I appreciate the growing interest in alternate systems; these are important, healthy conversations to have, even if the conclusion is that they aren't commercially viable in the long term. As a NamePros staff member, my goal is provide a safe, neutral platform on which these conversations can take place, but not to promote any one system. And I will have no hand in moderating--that isn't my job and would be inappropriate.
     
  6. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP

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    I think the essential idea of these ALT domains, is that they should be FOREVER domains. When Epik.com formally launches a systematic approach to ALT domains, it will be done as follows:

    - one time forever registration
    - a proper sunrise countdown
    - fully manageable via API like any other supported TLD
    - easily transferable between users among supporting registrars
    - empowered by a growing suite of secure DNS resolvers
    - enhanced with a WHOIS registry for engaging owners (e.g. WHOQ.com)

    As for the title of the thread, I would change it to something like "Open discussion of Alt Domains". There should be a place for such a discussion on NP. I agree there.
     
  7. Big Mac

    Big Mac Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    I did some more test. I registered various domain names for free on the .oss extension, the .dyn extension, and added more names on the .geek extension. These extensions are all overseen by OpenNic. This time instead of using the "Blockchain DNS" plugin for my Chrome browser, I changed my local DNS settings and added a new server address provided by OpenNic (thanks goes to @Shdwdrgn). The results are that all of my domain names with a simple web page are up and running on any browser I use. Firefox browser, Chrome browser, and the Brave browser are displaying my simple websites perfectly. So, no plugin/extension needed.

    The reality is, your average Joe or your average Mary, who are not tech savvy or don't understand domain names, they are not going to go through all this mess to either find a plugin or change their local DNS settings to visit my website on an alternative domain name extension. The solution is going to have be native support from growing and well known browsers like Brave, Opera, FireFox, and Tenta (thanks @Silentptnr). For "Alt TLDs" to work is going to have to be easy as 123. You open your browser of choice and you type in my website address that uses .geek, or .oss, etc., and that's it. We have to keep it simple and hassle-free.

    I think "Alt TLDs" could have a bright future if all the right parts fall into place. As stated earlier, this could be the beginning of true internet land ownership. For the average Joe like me who could possibly own his own TLD (I know it may be a lot of work and a lot of new education to acquire) without having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, is sort of mind-blowing. Understand when you own your "Alt TLD," you are the goverment, you are the regulator, you are your own ICANN, you are your own world, you only answer to yourself. This is your property, this is your real estate, 100% complete ownership.

    For those that may not want to own their own TLD because it may be too much work or there may be other legitimate reasons, then the next best thing may be to wait for what Epik has stated about Forever registrations for domain names on these alternative extensions. If it's possible for us to own our domain names forever at a reasonable price on these alternative extensions, this is something I may also participate in.

    Have a wonderful day!
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  8. cyc

    cyc Established Member

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  9. Shdwdrgn

    Shdwdrgn Established Member OpenNIC

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    @Save Breach -- I am essentially "back-end" crew for OpenNIC, meaning that I have written the majority of the back end code that nobody ever sees, but it makes the whole project tick and ties things together. I was one of the early proponents for revamping OpenNIC in such a way that there were no single points of failure such as having any one server handle the DNS entries for domains or TLDs. I would say that you haven't seen my work, except I also wrote a number of the web-based tools including the registrar at be.libre. It is probably obvious that I'm not that great at graphical design, but our project is based on the work of volunteers and there hasn't been a movement towards tying everything together into a single cohesive platform.

    As @Paul Buonopane pointed out, there is no way to ensure that logs are kept strictly private. All of our DNS servers are provided by project members who have similar interests, and it's all based on trust. If we were a business then we would simply buy hosting in multiple countries and set up DNS servers controlled by the company. The caveat here is that any business will retain the log files for troubleshooting, but could also turn that information into a revenue stream. With OpenNIC, nobody really cares about selling your data, but we do care about privacy from an individual standpoint.

    And yeah, DNS is only involved in looking up the initial connection. Once your data stream begins you are well beyond the DNS servers. Thing of DNS like a phone book -- You look up someone's name and get their phone number. Once you have that number, the phone book is no longer involved in your call.

    @Big Mac -- It's really interesting how much the internet has changed over the years. Back in the 90's when we were all on dial-up or even DSL, there was a time when signing up with an ISP meant getting a packet of information including instructions on setting your DNS entries to those of the ISP, so it was very commonplace. These days everything is automated and nobody knows how to make changes for themselves. :)

    Regarding getting your own TLD, we (OpenNIC) do actually have a process for that which includes presenting a case to the membership as to why a new TLD would be of benefit. Generally we also require that the person or group requesting the TLD can show the technical knowledge to operate and maintain it but there have been a couple cases where there was a lot of interest in the presented idea and one of our existing operators took charge of operations. Sure we could have an unlimited number of TLDs available, but the reality is that a lot of people show up with a great idea and then are gone forever in a week or two, so we have guidelines to keep from cluttering up our own namespace with unused DNS zones.

    Yes, it would be great if alt-roots could someone be a part of the general internet, but unfortunately DNS was designed so that there can be only a single root zone. For most people using their computer defaults, that root zone is provided by ICANN. It ensures a monopoly, and that ensures that domain names have a monetary value. There are alternatives like bitcoin which provide a stateless DNS. This means there is no single controlling entity and anyone who takes the time can create their own domains for free. The problem with this method is that there is no verified person behind a domain name, so you can't hold anyone responsible if that domain is used for nefarious purposes. We're at an interesting point in the history of the internet because everyone wants their privacy and anonyminity to speak freely, but total privacy means there is no accountability or responsibility, and that leads to anarchy. Hopefully some day soon we will find a respectable balance between the extremes.

    Sorry if that got too technical, I try to keep it light while still getting my point across, but I frequently fail.
     
  10. Big Mac

    Big Mac Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    @Shdwdrgn - thank you for your response. I really appreciate it. Hopefully, you can find a balance and make a little room for novices like me, who may want to own his own TLD someday. But, I also understand people have big ideas to run their own TLD and then later on it gets abandoned. So, I understand you have to be strict. I have some questions if you don't mine.

    1. Does OpenNic own and run the registries of .geek, .oss, and .dyn? I am asking because I have a few domain names on each extension and can see myself developing some type of informational website on each extension. But, are these extensions stable? Will they be here five years from now?

    2. I see that the .o extension is not operating properly. I'm assuming the person or group in charge of running the .o extension maybe lost interest or maybe had to deal with unforseen circumstances. So, what do you do with an extension in existence like .o, where no one seems to be running the show? Also, it seems like websites using the .oz extension are not resolving. Does OpenNic take over these extensions, since they may be left to rot?

    3. It's about stabililty. It's great that these domain names are free. However, the person or group behind or in charge to run each extension needs to somehow guarantee sometype of stability for people or small businesses who find these extensions interesting, but are afraid these "Alt TLDS" will be run inappropriately and get shut down. I don't want to build a million dollar a year business on an "Alt TLD" and then have the extension shut down because the person or group who run the registry lost interest, there was some type on infighting between the owners, etc. Is there anything OpenNic can do to make it easy to sleep at night if someone decides to build a business on an alternative domain name extension?

    I thank you for your kindness.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  11. Shdwdrgn

    Shdwdrgn Established Member OpenNIC

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    @Big Mac --Good questions, and I'll try to keep this reply a lot briefer :)

    1) With an alternate root there's no true ownership of a TLD. None of us paid $100k to register them, we literally just add the info to our DNS and someone sets up a registrar to manage domains. That's why Epik can set up their own server using the same TLDs -- they set up their own DNS servers to manage domains under their version of (for example) .geek, and we have DNS servers to manage domains under our version. As you can see in this thread, it creates a huge amount of confusion when two groups try to use the same TLDs.

    2) Yes, the .o TLD has been an issue of contention for some time due to the admin not actually having a working registry. We nearly voted to shut it down once but he managed to pull together a (sort of) working version at the last moment. If this is once again an issue then we need to have another conversation about the TLD on our mailing list. And this is the first I heard about .oz, I'll look into it over the weekend and see what's up.

    3) Stability and reliability... yeah that's always an issue. OpenNIC was first conceived in 1999 and as some people move on there's always others excited to pick up the slack. Once in awhile there is the dreaded case of an admin abandoning the project without notice. The first two TLDs I started running (oss and parody) were just such a case, nobody knows what happened to the original admin, but there was still a lot of interest and use of the domains. I rebuilt the DNS and ownership based on the information we had and asking for people on the mailing list to claim any domains they still wanted, but this started my own quest to try and insure redundancy. I now manage eight of the TLDs and am in charge of generating the root zone, mostly because everyone knows if they want to give up an OpenNIC TLD they can always turn it over to me and I'll keep it running. All of that information is stored redundantly on multiple servers, accessible by several other top admins in our group, so if something happened to me others would be able to carry on without having to rebuild. Not all of the TLDs are like that but we're working on it. The best I can promise now is that we have enough redundancy in place that even if a TLD admin does shut down their registrar and disappear without a work, all existing domains will continue running with the last known information, and as soon as we know there's an issue we will set up a new registrar and reconnect your access to those domains or perform manual updates if something needs to change right away.

    Regarding having a million-dollar industry on an alt-TLD... As you've seen, it takes a little effort to reach these domains. I'm not going to lead you astray and try to convince you that you're going to make money with these domains, in fact I would suggest the opposite. The average Joe isn't going to find these websites so you're not going to get a lot more eyeballs on your business from it. On the other hand, mirroring a well built website to other domains is dead-simple and people who join our project like to look around to see what's available in the name space, so there's a chance you'll get at least some views of your page that you otherwise wouldn't.

    And I've obviously blown the goal of keeping this short, but I also want to mention there's no true owners of OpenNIC. We call ourselves a democratic group because most structural decisions are voted on by all members. Yes there is occasional in-fighting because folks tend to get passionate about how they want things to proceed, but in the end the majority rules. There are a few of us with more access than others, but we got that position because we don't let heated moments deter us from following the votes. I'm usually the one who implements the changes, and there's been a number of votes that go against what I thought was best for the project, but majority rules and neither myself or others in charge will stand in the way of that (and if anyone tried, the rest of us would countermand that and strip their access in a heartbeat).
     
  12. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP

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    The main barrier to relevance for Alt Name Spaces is distribution. The traditional solution is a browser plugin, but that has its own set of challenges.

    The path Epik is focused on is directed at resiliency through decentralization of the last mile infrastructure, for bandwidth, storage and processing.

    I listed above the various technologies that we have assembled under one roof through organic development and acquisition. To get a sense of what is coming for decentralized internet access, check this:

    https://os.toki.com/

    If you have a Raspberry Pi, you can download and install it and see where this is headed.

    Just for calibration, there are 3 billion people with little or no internet access. We can sell them or give them access to a free local internet with local content archive.

    You can also test-drive how the system compresses sites for delivery to decentralized Toki servers by using the site downloader we are developing for both the clear web and deep web:

    https://websites.org/

    The compressed websites are stripped of surveillance code for fast private viewing.

    The people who deploy these Toki servers will earn a crypto utility token called a Toki, which is redeemable or transferable. Masterbucks 2.0 will allow you to convert it to fiat or other crypto.

    So what does this have to do with Alt Domains? When you install the Toki OS for connection sharing, you also deploy our secure DNS resolver which means it can resolve any alt TLD.

    If there is no reliable uplink, it can render a locally cached copy of the site if it has one.

    In short, our plan involves more than an alternate namespace. It is an alternate way to leverage decentralized infrastructure for empowerment, resiliency and sovereignty in the digital age.
     
  13. Paul

    Paul CTO, NamePros CTO VIP

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    I'm genuinely curious what you have planned for Toki and how it differs from something like Pi-hole. That being said, ironically, you have some distribution issues. I'm getting about 500 KiB/s down on your 30 GiB file. I'm on a gigabit connection; since a .img will typically be compressible, I'd expect to see in excess of 50 MiB/s. I'm not accustomed to waiting 10 hours for my files to download--that doesn't scream ease of use. It'd be far faster for me to simply set the DNS servers in my OS or change the DoH URI in my browser.

    Just to clarify, there’s a chance this isn’t an issue on your end. The internet is under a lot of strain right now. There might be regional issues, or my network might be having trouble. But the average person isn’t going to care: to them, 10 hours is 10 hours.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
  14. Paul

    Paul CTO, NamePros CTO VIP

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    I did some tests, but I’m not picking up any problems on my end or in my region. Speeds are mostly normal. However, the download is now predicted to take about 21 hours. Yikes.
     
  15. Big Mac

    Big Mac Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    @Shdwdrgn - I thank you so much for answering my questions. I think it may be time for "Alt TLDs" to move out of the back of the internet and start to go somewhat mainstream. As @Rob Monster said, we're going to have to fix this distribution issue. Native browser support is going to have to be a top priority in order for "Alt TLDs" to shine.

    @Rob Monster - I think I read either on your website or in this thread that it may be possible for people to run their own "Alt TLD" through Epik. As @Shdwdrgn said, we don't want this crowded crazy namespace where maybe a small portion of "Alt TLD" owners abandoned their TLDs. Would it be possible that Epik or whoever can offer an "Alt TLD" starter kit for people who want to own their own alternative domain name extension some day? Also, would it be possible for people/novices who want to own their own alternative domain name extension, would it be possible for them to do something like a 14 day or 30 day test run? They would setup their own "dummy" TLD (let's say I'll setup my alternative "dummy" domain extension as .bigmac), I'll use the .bigmac alternative domain extension as practice to see how the backend is setup, how to register names, how to setup dns server addresses, if I decide to charge a fee I would see how to setup wholesale pricing or retail pricing, etc. After the 14 days or 30 days are up, the .bigmac alternative domain name extension will get automatically deleted to not crowd up the namespace and because it was classified as a "dummy" alternative domain name extension that was only used for practice.

    These are just some thoughts that just came to me.

    Thank you.
     
  16. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP

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    Thanks Paul.

    I shared that a bit early in the spirit of co-creation. As you know, that is a big theme for @epik as framework for accelerating development. It is awesome when we get sophisticated power-users engaged even when that engagement takes the form of unvarnished critique. So, thank you for that!

    As for the downloader two topics:

    1. There is now a compressed version that is just 2 GB. For folks with low bandwidth that will be appreciated.

    2. The application is actually still hosted on staging hardware. By Monday, it should be on production hardware running over a CDN.

    In the meantime, early adopters who are trying to figure out why Alt TLDs are interesting can take note of the strategy for decentralized hardware.

    If folks want to secure name spaces, we are open to discussions there on auctioning off exclusives for entire namespaces with the caveat that each namespace in the Alt zones will be for Forever domains.

    The marketing collateral for the Alt domains are not online yet but coming this quarter, Lord-willing.
     
  17. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP

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    @Rob Monster - I think I read either on your website or in this thread that it may be possible for people to run their own "Alt TLD" through Epik. As @Shdwdrgn said, we don't want this crowded crazy namespace where maybe a small portion of "Alt TLD" owners abandoned their TLDs. Would it be possible that Epik or whoever can offer an "Alt TLD" starter kit for people who want to own their own alternative domain name extension some day? Also, would it be possible for people/novices who want to own their own alternative domain name extension, would it be possible for them to do something like a 14 day or 30 day test run? They would setup their own "dummy" TLD (let's say I'll setup my alternative "dummy" domain extension as .bigmac), I'll use the .bigmac alternative domain extension as practice to see how the backend is setup, how to register names, how to setup dns server addresses, if I decide to charge a fee I would see how to setup wholesale pricing or retail pricing, etc. After the 14 days or 30 days are up, the .bigmac alternative domain name extension will get automatically deleted to not crowd up the namespace and because it was classified as a "dummy" alternative domain name extension that was only used for practice.

    These are just some thoughts that just came to me.

    Thank you.[/QUOTE]

    Sure thing.

    I expect that the Alt domains will be sold as Forever domains. If we are selling exclusive NameSpaces, we expect the owners of those NameSpaces will also pay that forward by selling perpetual registrations so that there is an aligned incentive towards the enduring success of those namespaces, unlike gTLDs where it has been a giant cash grap with the registrants mostly left holding the drippy bag and with registry operators woefully underinvesting in applications that make the namespaces useful.

    So, we'll include an application form for applying for an exclusive namespace where the aspiring registry operator describes their vision for the namespace and their available resources to turn the namespace into something useful. The proceeds from selling those namespaces will go heavily towards expansion of the TokiNet through hardware buildout where so-called Toki Mayors operate local Toki servers in their Tokivilles. Each Toki node can run autonomously offline, node-to-node or online, assuming there is a live uplink.

    I will not claim that we have figured all of this out. What I can tell you is that we have very smart people, working very diligently to create something insanely cool which just empower a whole lot of people in a way that ICANN won't. The model of scarcity is an illusion. Forever names on an infinite namespace with a resilient delivery infrastructure that empowers billions of new netizens seems way more interesting to me than investing in most of the new gTLDs with their nosebleed renewal fees.

    To be clear, the .COM is king and it will almost certainly remain king unless we start seeing massive nullrouting by idiot censors and book-burners. The immediate challenge is that emerging market investors will remain largely priced out of .COM as these names drift into ever stronger hands as the weak hands capitulate in this current economic shock. For the inevitable wave of new hyperlocal startups that are going to be increasingly digital, we think there is room for logical alternatives.

    In short, at a time, when financiers and bankers on wall street are starting to impose a sort of Draconian scarcity that expands the separation between haves and have-nots, I believe their contrived illusion of scarcity can and will be overcome with strategies that create abundance. So, thanks to all those who are prepared to engage in co-creating abundance. Lord-willing we get to do something really, really cool.
     
  18. Mod Team Bravo

    Mod Team Bravo Moderator, NamePros Moderator PRO VIP Gold Account

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    We can do that.

    Here's a link to inform us of which posts should be moved to a new thread (for any reason):
    Simply include links to the posts in your direct message.

    Anyone can use that link for any posts in any thread.
     
  19. Arpit131

    Arpit131 Top Member Epik.com Staff VIP

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    Absolutely. This project is exciting. We have some Raspberry I owners testing it. It's like exploring a new city on foot.
    Super fun, exciting and very cool. Of course it's not perfect which is the fun bit. You get to contribute with ideas, critiques and more.
    Looking forward to some tech enthusiasts coming forward and being a part of early adopters.
    Cheers!
     
  20. ComboNames

    ComboNames ComboNames.com

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    [​IMG]

    Can you please tell us why you're trying to avoid explaining this @Rob Monster
    This is what the whole thread was about before it went technical? It was about misleading people into thinking that these alt domains are generic domains , and they were sold here on namepros for newbies for that same reason too?
    I noticed that you're now redirecting this page https://www.epik.com/tld/o
    but you can clearly see how misleading it was on google caches (or from the screenshot above)
    I hope you won't ignore this message too ?
     
  21. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP

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    You are looking at a hidden page.

    The TLD is generic.

    However as a professional courtesy, we did 2 things:

    1. We previously pulled the OpenNIC TLDs so they cannot be bought. There are now just 2 Alts:

    https://registrar.epik.com/prices/registration/alt

    2. We added OpenNIC TLDs to the Toki DNS resolver which Raspberry Pi users can download here for free:

    https://os.toki.com/

    So, what's your beef now? Please enlighten the good people of NP with your heavy-handed rant.

    Regardless, a Happy Easter to you and yours.
    .
     
  22. ComboNames

    ComboNames ComboNames.com

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    If it's wasn't this thread , that landing page https://www.epik.com/tld/o for .o will continue misleading people to purchase that alt domain.
    All I noticed is that while you were answering questions you were always avoiding explaining why that misleading page was there in the first place.
    Let me remind you that this has been written by you guys , and you haven't even apologized for that.
    [​IMG]
    But again since you saw my question and you avoid answering the direct question , instead you went again promoting that Toki website. Then I'm out of questions. Thank you
     

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  23. domainsmgm

    domainsmgm Top Contributor VIP

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    @Rob Monster Will there be an aftermarket to sell these Alt tld domain names?
    I want to sell my domain name SE.O :xf.smile:
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  24. Ritesh Chauhan

    Ritesh Chauhan Top Contributor VIP

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    @Rob Monster
     
  25. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP

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    Slow replies here due to Easter events for the family. Have a good one.

    There will be an after-market for Alt Domains. However, we suspended selling OpenNic domains for the time being. Domains that were sold will continue to resolve on Epik and Toki.

    Refund sent.

    The reference is to invite folks to verify that indeed that it is as advertised -- it resolves OpenNIC domains. The download is fast now but you will need a Raspberry Pi server:

    upload_2020-4-12_18-6-28.png

    https://os.toki.com/
     

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