discuss Gun Laws

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Bernard Wright

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This is just a hodgepodge of thoughts. I won't distinguish between good and bad people. I'll focus on peoples' actions.

Bad actors shouldn't have guns for committing acts of violence against innocent people, nor for threatening innocent people with potential violence. It would be nice if society could prevent a bad actor from obtaining the gun used in a bad act.

Good actors should have the right to defend themselves and others against bad actors with necessary force. Such force includes the threat of lethal violence, and the use of lethal violence if necessary.

Bad actors don't have regard for the rule of law when acting in a criminal manner.

Society is comprised of individuals pursuing their own interests. Laws are instated to ensure that individuals' rights are not infringed upon by another person or entity. When an individual infringes upon another individual's rights, there are criminal and civil procedures to deal with such matters, overseen by our governing officials. In extreme cases, when the infringing party is a usurping government, it is up to the citizens to protect their natural freedoms from that government. This happens rarely, but it happens. It is wise for an individual to aspire to maintain his/her own personal sovereignty and ability to protect him/herself from unjust threats.

A good actor is responsible for protecting him/herself and, if desired, other people from threats and acts of violence. When police officers are capable of assisting, assistance is welcomed, but the police's main duty is to maintain law and order, not to protect another individual from immediate threat. The individual's primal concern is his/her own personal safety, and this is a responsibility that lies within every individual when faced with a threat of violence.

A gun is a tool. A gun can do a number of things. Here are three examples.

1. a gun can be used to engage in a violent act.
2. a gun can be used to deescalate/end a violent act.
3. a gun can be used to deescalate/end a threat of violence.

We are all players in society with an interest in pursuing our best interests and defending our well-being. Laws that would take guns away from some bad actors are sure to also result in fewer armed good actors who could deescalate violent and potentially violent situations. Violence is not good. Good actors with guns end violent situations more quickly and effectively than good actors without guns do. There are hundreds of millions of firearms on this planet. A bad actor with the desire to obtain a gun will always have the means to locate a gun. Black markets are real.

Good actors should have the legal right to possess guns in order to protect themselves, and others, from bad actors.
 
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Common sense checking in.

In a setting where fewer people have firearms with which to defend themselves, a would-be assailant has less potential opposition, and in such a setting it is rational to expect violent crimes to increase. If any of us were to find ourselves in the scenario posed by @TestCase, of course we would want to at least be among those with firearms, and perhaps have one or two of our own. It is our God-given right to protect ourselves in such cases.

We are not going to legislate our way into an age of nonviolent enlightenment. Stricter laws, and less guns among those who would use them for good, means those who would use them for bad have less opposition. The reality is, evil exists. There are more guns than people in the US, and some of those people will have access to lethal weapons. Should you be faced with one of those people, nobody has the right to tell you you cannot defend your life and the lives of those you care about. Your bus driver cannot take that right away, your priest cannot take that right away, and the government cannot take that right away. In that situation, it is you, the assailant, and your maker that have a say in the matter.

I'm willing to bet none of us here panhandle for drugs. It's unlikely that we raise roosters or dogs for illicit fights. I could go on. There are an innumerable number of degenerate paths that humans among us take. Keep your compass pointed nobly and righteously. And don't be naive. Evil is real, and it is your right to protect what is good.
 
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Common sense checking in.

In a setting where fewer people have firearms with which to defend themselves, a would-be assailant has less potential opposition, and in such a setting it is rational to expect violent crimes to increase. If any of us were to find ourselves in the scenario posed by @TestCase, of course we would want to at least be among those with firearms, and perhaps have one or two of our own. It is our God-given right to protect ourselves in such cases.

We are not going to legislate our way into an age of nonviolent enlightenment. Stricter laws, and less guns among those who would use them for good, means those who would use them for bad have less opposition. The reality is, evil exists. There are more guns than people in the US, and some of those people will have access to lethal weapons. Should you be faced with one of those people, nobody has the right to tell you you cannot defend your life and the lives of those you care about. Your bus driver cannot take that right away, your priest cannot take that right away, and the government cannot take that right away. In that situation, it is you, the assailant, and your maker that have a say in the matter.

I'm willing to bet none of us here panhandle for drugs. It's unlikely that we raise roosters or dogs for illicit fights. I could go on. There are an innumerable number of degenerate paths that humans among us take. Keep your compass pointed nobly and righteously. And don't be naive. Evil is real, and it is your right to protect what is good.
Bernard, that's a lot of talking just to say that you deserve to own guns because some people are bad. We've covered that argument already in this thread. I'm not going to spend time proving you wrong again.
 
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I’ll state it more concisely. When an assailant brings a gun to a gun fight, only a fool would opt to not have a gun. It is immoral to disarm those who wish to protect themselves from evil. It is foolish to expect laws to affect the behaviors of those who wish to enact evil upon others.

You haven’t proven anything. You have made it clear that you recognize a problem, an undesirable level of violence involving guns, but you have not described how laws will solve the problem. My contention continues to be that the problem will not be solved by the introduction of more laws. I’ve explained in detail why more gun laws might even exacerbate the problem. It’s a possibility that should be taken seriously.
 
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I’ll state it more concisely. When an assailant brings a gun to a gun fight, only a fool would opt to not have a gun. It is immoral to disarm those who wish to protect themselves from evil. It is foolish to expect laws to affect the behaviors of those who wish to enact evil upon others.

You haven’t proven anything. You have made it clear that you recognize a problem, an undesirable level of violence involving guns, but you have not described how laws will solve the problem. My contention continues to be that the problem will not be solved by the introduction of more laws. I’ve explained in detail why more gun laws might even exacerbate the problem. It’s a possibility that should be taken seriously.
If law can't affect behaviour then why bother having them at all? Let's live in anarchy.

I already responded to this argument earlier in the thread. If you want to go back and respond to the points I made, please feel free.
 
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If you go to the England a long developed old Country, the police don’t carry, but their citizens they get run over by rented trucks, get cut with a knife and receive horrible acid attacks. So where there are crazy people as there always are everywhere, they will find a way to hurt others. Innane Laws have nothing to do with it.
 
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If you go to the England a long developed old Country, the police don’t carry, but their citizens they get run over by rented trucks, get cut with a knife and receive horrible acid attacks. So where there are crazy people as there always are everywhere, they will find a way to hurt others. Innane Laws have nothing to do with it.
As the saying goes...

It's better to have a gun and not need it than to not have one and need it.
 
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Guns are a joke. Absolutely no need for them to exist.

If protection is the issue, why can’t civilians own/drive tanks and own automatic weapons? The argument for guns can’t be that they are for protection if you outlaw forms of defense that are superior.
 
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As the saying goes...

It's better to have a gun and not need it than to not have one and need it.

“Peace through superior firepower”.
 
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Guns are a joke. Absolutely no need for them to exist.
Assuming you're not being sarcastic, then why do police and body guards for celebrities/politicians/rich people/etc need them?
 
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Guns are a joke. Absolutely no need for them to exist.

Go buy a liquor store and operate it from 4-12 midnight in some ghetto neighborhood, then report back to us in 5 years if you still are around.
 
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Go buy a liquor store and operate it from 4-12 midnight in some ghetto neighborhood, then report back to us in 5 years if you still are around.
You wouldn’t need bullet proof glass if bullets didn’t exist.

So yes, if someone wants the money out of my register they’ll get a bat to the head. You’ll say that the bad guys will always have guns which is a bs argument.
 
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...If protection is the issue, why can’t civilians own/drive tanks and own automatic weapons? The argument for guns can’t be that they are for protection if you outlaw forms of defense that are superior.
Civilians ARE able to own automatic weapons. It just requires more money and I believe a deeper background check.
https://gun.laws.com/automatic

The argument for guns can’t be that they are for protection if you outlaw forms of defense that are superior.
I
OK, I'm a bit confused here.

Are your saying the only acceptable time to defend one's self with a gun is when confronted with superior firepower??? And since civilians aren't allowed to own anything more advanced than a gun, then that negates their viability as a defensive weapon???

Yeah, the logic escapes me at the moment. But maybe I'm mis-reading/misunderstanding what you've posted.

The argument for guns can’t be that they are for protection if you outlaw forms of defense that are superior.
II
And of course we know how well criminals and crazies abide by laws...
 
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II
And of course we know how well criminals and crazies abide by laws...
This!

With this argument we simply don’t need laws. After all, criminals and crazies won’t follow.

What you just said should wipe all laws away, in fear that “bad” people won’t comply. Do you realize or understand how idiotic that approach is?!
 
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You wouldn’t need bullet proof glass if bullets didn’t exist...
But they do exist - along with the weapons that send them down range - and you can't turn back the clock.

...So yes, if someone wants the money out of my register they’ll get a bat to the head....
HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA... Stop it Keith! You sound like all the overcompensating gun owners that think they'll go full Rambo and rain hell down on anyone that comes at them.

...You’ll say that the bad guys will always have guns which is a bs argument.

  • A study of persons arrested for a wide range of crimes showed that a higher percentage of arrestees than regular citizens own firearms. Arrestees are also more likely to be injured or killed by gun violence. Within a community, this amounts to an identifiable group of “career” offenders.
 
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...With this argument we simply don’t need laws. After all, criminals and crazies won’t follow....
Wow! Tremendous counter-argument you've got there, NOT!

Actually, I'd say that laws help provide us with a baseline for judging who the more dangerous or problematic members of society are.

...Do you realize or understand how idiotic that approach is?!
And yours as well?!?!?!
 
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Wow! Tremendous argument you've got there, NOT!

Actually, I'd say that laws help provide us with a baseline for judging who the more dangerous or problematic members of society are.


And yours as well?!?!?!
You called it. Laws establish a baseline. As of now, guns are just a second amendment right which is ridiculous. Sure, you needed guns back then when the amendment was established. In today’s time it’s a different ballgame.

So, why is it far fetched to make the baseline...no guns?! We’ve tried guns and scores of people can be killed in seconds. Why the fear to try no guns? I’ll tell you exactly why. The NRA buys politicians and people are afraid to be proven wrong when less guns yield less death.
 
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...With this argument we simply don’t need laws. After all, criminals and crazies won’t follow....
ANARCHY! ANARCHY! ANARCHY!
 
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On more than occasion in my life, a gun has saved my life. I've been self employed for 90% of my life and at times carried large amounts of cash...it doesn't take a criminal too long to figure out who the main man (or woman) is at a business and target them for robbery.

Had a crackhead once try to get into my house (thinking he was on the other side of town and out of his mind) carrying a machete and insisting he get free drugs...a gun saved me and my family that time as well.

Once I ran a bear out of my garage by firing a weapon in its general direction.

Once I am provided a 24 hour guard(s) to protect me and my family wherever and whenever I (they) live or travel, then you may ask for my weapon.

Where the heck are you living? Did the bear tried to rob you too?
 
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Where the heck are you living? Did the bear tried to rob you too?

East Coast US...although the bear had successfully entered the garage, he/she was unable to raid my secondary refrigerator before the security system alerted me.
 
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...guns are just a second amendment right which is ridiculous...
WTF dude?!?!?!

Whether I agree with them or not, I support all the rights provided to every American in our Constitution including the 1st amendment right that allows people to make stupid statements. I may choose not to avail myself of some of those rights, but I will not question or deny anyone the opportunity to exercise theirs.
...As of now, guns are just a second amendment right which is ridiculous. Sure, you needed guns back then when the amendment was established. In today’s time it’s a different ballgame...

And some people seem to think our first amendment is ridiculous and antiquated - like our current president. So we should go ahead and dump it because people get all butt hurt when someone says something bad - BUT THRUTHFUL - about them?!?!? Or hurt their feelings?!?!?

...So, why is it far fetched to make the baseline...no guns?! We’ve tried guns and scores of people can be killed in seconds...
And what if there is minimal change in the number of lives lost and injuries sustained?

Or what if gun deaths go up because only criminals have guns?

Do we get to have all our guns back because gun haters have been proven wrong in their beliefs? (This does bring up the questions of of who will set the standards as well as the methodolgy in measuring the results.)

As with any law or tax, once something is in place, it's incredibly difficult to remove from the books! Oh sure, we could build an "expiration date" in to the law just in case it doesn't work. (Patriot Act anybody???...) But again, most temporary laws become permanent because "the conditions have changed" - or maybe nothing changes, but they still keep the law in place just because.

"Nothing is as permanent as a temporary government program."

...Why the fear to try no guns? I’ll tell you exactly why. The NRA buys politicians and people are afraid to be proven wrong when less guns yield less death.
By the way, in my opinion, LaPierre is a self serving, money grubbing, fearmongering POS! I dropped my membership years ago. The NRA started out with a great purpose, rifle marksmanship and firearms safety. The way it and it's leadership has devolved in to what it is today is disgusting.

So exactly how and why would the outlawing of guns be any more succesful than our war on drugs? Look at all the drugs that have been outlawed or strictly regulated, yet they are freely available and highly profitable for the criminals that traffic in them. Serious question!
 
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