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Bernard Wright

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This is just a hodgepodge of thoughts. I won't distinguish between good and bad people. I'll focus on peoples' actions.

Bad actors shouldn't have guns for committing acts of violence against innocent people, nor for threatening innocent people with potential violence. It would be nice if society could prevent a bad actor from obtaining the gun used in a bad act.

Good actors should have the right to defend themselves and others against bad actors with necessary force. Such force includes the threat of lethal violence, and the use of lethal violence if necessary.

Bad actors don't have regard for the rule of law when acting in a criminal manner.

Society is comprised of individuals pursuing their own interests. Laws are instated to ensure that individuals' rights are not infringed upon by another person or entity. When an individual infringes upon another individual's rights, there are criminal and civil procedures to deal with such matters, overseen by our governing officials. In extreme cases, when the infringing party is a usurping government, it is up to the citizens to protect their natural freedoms from that government. This happens rarely, but it happens. It is wise for an individual to aspire to maintain his/her own personal sovereignty and ability to protect him/herself from unjust threats.

A good actor is responsible for protecting him/herself and, if desired, other people from threats and acts of violence. When police officers are capable of assisting, assistance is welcomed, but the police's main duty is to maintain law and order, not to protect another individual from immediate threat. The individual's primal concern is his/her own personal safety, and this is a responsibility that lies within every individual when faced with a threat of violence.

A gun is a tool. A gun can do a number of things. Here are three examples.

1. a gun can be used to engage in a violent act.
2. a gun can be used to deescalate/end a violent act.
3. a gun can be used to deescalate/end a threat of violence.

We are all players in society with an interest in pursuing our best interests and defending our well-being. Laws that would take guns away from some bad actors are sure to also result in fewer armed good actors who could deescalate violent and potentially violent situations. Violence is not good. Good actors with guns end violent situations more quickly and effectively than good actors without guns do. There are hundreds of millions of firearms on this planet. A bad actor with the desire to obtain a gun will always have the means to locate a gun. Black markets are real.

Good actors should have the legal right to possess guns in order to protect themselves, and others, from bad actors.
 
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GoDaddyGoDaddy
And yet it's a useless fact.

Well, that is your opinion...like sphincters...we all have at least one...dozens actually!!!

I'm moving on now Bernard...interesting side bar to domaining but it's back to work for me!
 
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I don’t see any reason NOT to suspect the unintended consequences to outweigh the intended consequences. I think quite the opposite would result. But I’m open to reading any alternative hypotheses you might put forward. My mind can be changed. But for any change of mind, I would rely only on hypotheses based on realism, not idealism.

Edited that first line
 
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Well, that is your opinion...like sphincters...we all have at least one...dozens actually!!!

I'm moving on now Bernard...interesting side bar to domaining but it's back to work for me!
If you can show me all the useful ways that fact can be applied, I'm all ears. Until then, using it as justification for needing guns doesn't cut it.

Reporter: "Hey Donald, why are we spending $100 billion to double our nuclear arsenal?"

Donald: "Bad people!"

Reporter: "Oh yeah! We forgot about them. Carry on."
 
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I don’t see any reason NOT to suspect the unintended consequences to outweigh the intended consequences. I think quite the opposite would result. But I’m open to reading any alternative hypotheses you might put forward. My mind can be changed. But for any change of mind, I would rely only on hypotheses based on realism, not idealism.

Edited that first line
Here, you can read about how tougher gun laws worked out for four other countries:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/mar/15/so-america-this-is-how-you-do-gun-control
 
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That’s it? A link that describes how it has worked for other nations?

How about explaining specifically:
  • What your proposed legislation would entail
  • How it would affect the rate of gun violence in cities where the rates of gun violence are the highest. Let’s start with Chicago.
  • What blowback might be received from gun rights advocates and how that would be dealt with on a large scale.
Every nation is different, with different demographics, cultures, histories, etc. That third bullet point should not be overlooked. One should not underestimate the degree to which gun rights advocates are committed to their cause, and the amount of distrust they possess in their government. The countries named in the article were not founded as a consequence of violent revolt by an armed populace in the way the US was. This is a unique aspect of our history and gun rights are tightly aligned with this.

I think it best to give this thread a break. I’ve enjoyed it. Thank you for engaging.
 
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That’s it? A link that describes how it has worked for other nations?

How about explaining specifically:
  • What your proposed legislation would entail
  • How it would affect the rate of gun violence in cities where the rates of gun violence are the highest. Let’s start with Chicago.
  • What blowback might be received from gun rights advocates and how that would be dealt with on a large scale.
Every nation is different, with different demographics, cultures, histories, etc. That third bullet point should not be overlooked. One should not underestimate the degree to which gun rights advocates are committed to their cause, and the amount of distrust they possess in their government. The countries named in the article were not founded as a consequence of violent revolt by an armed populace in the way the US was. This is a unique aspect of our history and gun rights are tightly aligned with this.

I think it best to give this thread a break. I’ve enjoyed it. Thank you for engaging.

The U.S. was formed 250 years ago. How on earth does that have any bearing on today's Americans and whether or not they should own guns? Germany and Japan have experienced horrible violence in their countries far more recently than the U.S. Heck, it was only 80 years ago that Hitler was rounding people up based on religion and ethnicity. Shouldn't Germans have way more fear and distrust of government than Americans?

How do I specifically explain proposed legislation? I'm not a lawyer.

How do I explain how rates of gun violence would be affected? I'm not a statistician.

How do I explain large-scale blowback risks and how to deal with them? I'm not a game theorist.

There are very qualified people in America who are being paid to do this very work. But before they do, the population and government need to decide to at least explore the possibilities. They need to recognize that there is a problem. And that is what we're debating here: IF there is a problem.

I've shown you there is a problem.
I've shown you why there is a problem.
I've shown you how other countries have solved similar problems.

Unless you have factual arguments that counter what I've presented (and not subjective musings based on opinion and incomplete logic), then ending the discussion is a very good idea.
 
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For those that believe only guns can kill or harm a lot of people in a short amount of time and no one needs a gun EVER for self defense because all you have to do is call the police and they will be there quickly, you need to read these stories. (Both stories are about of the same crime spree.)

Pay attention to how many different locations these attacks took place in - and the time period they covered. Be sure to pay special attention to the video in the first link - as well as the printed description of the attack that is provide after the video. Now imagine what it felt like to be that woman - as well as every other victim - and what it felt like with each slice of the blades.

https://abc7chicago.com/orange-coun...knife-in-each-hand-in-vicious-attack/5452060/

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/...Spree-Kills-4-in-Orange-County-526938241.html

Here's a few quotes from the second story (emphasis added by me),

The 33-year-old man from Garden Grove started the rampage just after 4 p.m. and robbed more than half a dozen businesses during a two-hour wave of violence...

The violence appeared to be random and the only known motives seem to be "robbery, hate, homicide," Garden Grove police Lt. Carl Whitney said at a news conference.
The suspect went on to attack two more people, police said: a woman was stabbed during a robbery at an insurance company, and a man pumping gas at a Chevron gas station was stabbed several times and had his nose nearly severed in the attack, police said.
I look forward to finding out how he disarmed the 7-11 guard. If you are an armed guard, you should probably be able and willing to use your weapon in this type of situation.

I'm not one of those Fake News/MSM haters because that is what I usually watch. I have also been known to watch a little bit of FOX News on a rare occasion (one needs to listen to all sides to make an informed decision), but I guess the "kill count" wasn't high enough to warrant coverage in the MSM due to the mass shootings of the last 2 weeks. (Or, is it because an "assault weapon" wasn't involved so it doesn't fit the narative??? Hmmm, maybe the tinfoil hats wearers do have a point...)
 
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For those that believe only guns can kill or harm a lot of people in a short amount of time and no one needs a gun EVER for self defense because all you have to do is call the police and they will be there quickly, you need to read these stories. (Both stories are about of the same crime spree.)

Pay attention to how many different locations these attacks took place in - and the time period they covered. Be sure to pay special attention to the video in the first link - as well as the printed description of the attack that is provide after the video. Now imagine what it felt like to be that woman - as well as every other victim - and what it felt like with each slice of the blades.

https://abc7chicago.com/orange-coun...knife-in-each-hand-in-vicious-attack/5452060/

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/...Spree-Kills-4-in-Orange-County-526938241.html

Here's a few quotes from the second story (emphasis added by me),



I look forward to finding out how he disarmed the 7-11 guard. If you are an armed guard, you should probably be able and willing to use your weapon in this type of situation.

I'm not one of those Fake News/MSM haters because that is what I usually watch. I have also been known to watch a little bit of FOX News on a rare occasion (one needs to listen to all sides to make an informed decision), but I guess the "kill count" wasn't high enough to warrant coverage in the MSM due to the mass shootings of the last 2 weeks. (Or, is it because an "assault weapon" wasn't involved so it doesn't fit the narative??? Hmmm, maybe the tinfoil hats wearers do have a point...)
Just so I understand, are you saying that the existence of these types of crimes is enough justification for the relaxed gun ownership laws that currently exist in the U.S.?

It's a bit like saying climate change is made up because yesterday it snowed in Montana, don't you think?

You have to look at the big picture. Cherry-picking individual crimes to justify a terrible law doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
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Just so I understand, are you saying that the existence of these types of crimes is enough justification for the relaxed gun ownership laws that currently exist in the U.S.?

It's a bit like saying climate change is made up because yesterday it snowed in Montana, don't you think?

You have to look at the big picture. Cherry-picking individual crimes to justify a terrible law doesn't make a lot of sense.
Just so I understand, your counter argument is that the pain and suffering experienced by all the victims of violent crimes by crazies and criminals who do not obey laws is perfectly acceptable and justifiable collateral damage in order to prevent law abiding citizen from having guns?

Cherry picking?!?!? You cherry picked a study(s) for one of your earlier posts in this thread. One can always find other studies that counter the findings of the one being used as empirical proof of one's point of view.

I posted about one specific crime spree where a legal/law abiding gun owner may have been able to minimize or even prevent deaths and injuries. The one person that had a gun was not able or willing to deploy it to stop the carnage - but he also was one of the last people in the chain of this crime spree. Had there been other armed gun owners with CCW permits at other points along the way, the perpetrator may have been stopped sooner and death and injuries may have been prevented/avoided. But we'll never know because there doesn't appear to have been any law abiding gun carrying/CCW permitted owners at any of the locations of this crime spree.

California has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the US - and Orange County (where the crime spree took place) has some of the strictest CCW laws within CA. As such, a CCW permit is extremely difficult to obtain. (So much for "relaxed" gun laws.) Law abiding gun owners are law abiding gun owners (mind blown!), they don't carry where and when the law tells them they can't.

Again, if the true purpose of removing guns from the hands of citizens is to prevent unnecessary death and injury, then why hasn't alcoholic consumption been banned? Why are cellphonoes allowed to be used in motor vehicles? Why are maximum speed limits greater than 45/55/??? miles an hour allowed? Why isn't tobacco use outlawed?

That's right, it's NOT about saving lives and preventing injuries. It's about allaying people's irrational fear of the odds of being shot in the course of their daily lives.

From 2018
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...e8-94da-ebf9d112159c_story.html?noredirect=on

From 2016
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-are-we-afraid-of-mass-shootings#1

From another of my posts,
https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/all-injuries/preventable-death-overview/odds-of-dying/

If you were to subtract out suicides - about 2/3 of gun fatalities - the odds of dying by guns would decrease significantly.

I'm pretty sure that those that are intent on killing themselves (Robin Williams) or killing others (Timothy McVeigh) will always look for and find ways of doing it without the use of firearms. You know, just like the guy in the crime spree I posted...

Joe Nichols said:
Your "logic" is incomplete, and your arguments fail to factor in social, economic, and cultural issues.
I would say YOUR "logic" is incomplete as well. My stance is YOUR arguments fail to factor in the social, economic, and cultural issues in the US that makes the situation here - and/or those of every other country - different than those of any other country.

Funny, I just realized that I don't think I have ever suggested that those in another country should change their country's laws. If someone doesn't like the laws of another country, one should probably just not go to that country. WOW! Such an elegant solution... (Again, mind blown!)
 
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Fact is, accountability is a must. Since we've proven we suck at being responsible ourselves (yep, the trigger-happy nutsos ruined it for everyone, so suck it up buttercup), the accountability must be done with laws.
 
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... the accountability must be done with laws.

Yeah, about that...

It doesn't seem to be working out too well in liberal California. (Talk about "relaxed laws...")

https://ktla.com/2019/08/08/suspect...hy-criminal-record-police-chief-blasts-ab109/
In addition to being horrific, Garden Grove Police Chief Tom DaRe said the violence should have been preventable...

"This person should have been in prison and not allowed to be in our community committing these violent acts," DaRe said. "Based upon on his prior arrest record, he is a violent individual who should have never been considered for early release based upon Assembly Bill 109."

Under AB 109, also known as California's Public Safety Realignment of 2011, felons designated "non-violent, non-serious and non-sex offenders" are eligible to serve their time in county jails, rather than state prisons. Upon release, county probation departments are then responsible for keeping track of the offenders under a program called post-release community supervision, rather than state parole agents.

According to Orange County Superior Court records, Castaneda has numerous prior convictions, and was out on bond awaiting trial in several cases at the time of Wednesday's violence.

His prior felony convictions date back a decade and include seven violations of post-release community supervision probation between 2016 and 2018, records show.

He was convicted of possession of drugs sales in 2016, as well as possession of an assault weapon, possession of a firearm with drugs, four counts of possession of a firearm by a felon, possession of ammunition by a felon, two counts of possession of drugs for sales, possession of marijuana for sales, auto theft and receiving stolen property in 2014. Castaneda was convicted of domestic violence causing severe bodily injury in 2009.

Castaneda's criminal past should have removed him from the public long ago, DaRe said.

"As a police chief, I implore our policy makers to reevaluate their policies on criminal justice," DaRe said.

"The pendulum has swung so far that it is increasingly difficult to keep our communities safe from the rise in violent crime," the chief said. "California law enforcement agencies have been crippled by Assembly Bill 109, and offenders are not being held accountable for their crimes."
 
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Lots of interesting points there @TestCase, particularly the ones comparing guns to tobacco and alcohol. However that's a separate debate entirely, so for the sake of staying on point and keeping the discussion from getting out of scope, let's start with this:

I would say YOUR "logic" is incomplete as well. My stance is YOUR arguments fail to factor in the social, economic, and cultural issues in the US that makes the situation here - and/or those of every other country - different than those of any other country.
This seems to be a go-to argument for those who support the legal ownership of handguns and assault weapons. But I've never read a clear explanation.

Could you expand on this? What is it about the US that is so unique from other countries so as to put the country in a position of needing to arm the general population in such a way?

If we can establish that, then we can move on to discussing if gun ownership is really the best solution.
 
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Unfortunately, I have to head out the door for the next several hours so I'll have to address more of your question later on, but let me quickly respond to this part of your post.

Lots of interesting points there particularly the ones comparing guns to tobacco and alcohol. However that's a separate debate entirely, so for the sake of staying on point and keeping the discussion from getting out of scope...
If the honest and entire issue with guns is about saving lives and preventing injury, then I can't see how the other topics can be seen as being separated from the overall picture of achieving these goals.

The other topics all result in death and injury (assuming serious illness falls within the realm of injury) at similar or, in some instances, higher rates than guns. Yet I don't see "normal" people giving up their cars, panicking when someone lights up a cigarette (well, except in CA & NY - but are they really "normal"...lol) or calling the police when someone walks in to a bar after parking their car because that person MIGHT come out drunk. At this point in time I don't see headlines day after day crying for the immediate abolition of alcohol, cig's, high speed limits, etc...

They all do damage to society at similar rates so why shouldn't they all be addressed with equal ferver and sense of urgency?.

Be back later today or tomorrow to continue this discussion.
 
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Unfortunately, I have to head out the door for the next several hours so I'll have to address more of your question later on, but let me quickly respond to this part of your post.


If the honest and entire issue with guns is about saving lives and preventing injury, then I can't see how the other topics can be seen as being separated from the overall picture of achieving these goals.

The other topics all result in death and injury (assuming serious illness falls within the realm of injury) at similar or, in some instances, higher rates than guns. Yet I don't see "normal" people giving up their cars, panicking when someone lights up a cigarette (well, except in CA & NY - but are they really "normal"...lol) or calling the police when someone walks in to a bar after parking their car because that person MIGHT come out drunk. At this point in time I don't see headlines day after day crying for the immediate abolition of alcohol, cig's, high speed limits, etc...

They all do damage to society at similar rates so why shouldn't they all be addressed with equal ferver and sense of urgency?.

Be back later today or tomorrow to continue this discussion.
I agree that everything you mentioned has its own issues with regards to public health. However, each one would require its own discussion to fully delve into the very different considerations. I'd prefer to focus the discussion on the merits or drawbacks of gun ownership itself, rather than get distracted by those comparisons of entirely separate problems.
 
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I digress.
 
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@Joe Nichols

While I'm formulating a response to your question, I'd like to ask the following of you.

Acknowledging Canada has significantly fewer mass shootings than the US (along w/ fewer guns per capita), if by chance you were to find yourself actually caught up in one of these rare active shooter situations at an office complex or in a mall, and found yourself taking refuge in an office/rest room/closet/etc because you couldn't escape in time, would you rather that all of those trapped with you be unarmed or would you feel at least a bit more secure if at least one of them had a gun?

I hope you will be 100% honest in your reponse. Whatever your answer, I promise I won't ask you to explain your reasons.
 
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My state of Texas has some of the most lax gun laws in the US, I conceal carry, we have open carry allowed but i have never wanted to open carry and see very very very few people ever open carry.

More stringent background checks could help, if a person can legally purchase a firearm they would have no problem with a more stringent check process.

I did not oppose when assault weapons were banned , i wouldn't oppose if assault weapons were banned again. Although it can be argued the .223 AK47 can be used to deer hunt with, people don't hunt with a AK47 or AR15 assault "Military" firearm, i have never seen anyone hunt with an assault rifle in all my years of hunting. so i see no need for civilians to really own assault rifles or assault hand guns such as Tec9 or a mac10 . these are military spec weapons that really have no use in civilian society IMO.

Although their would be many who feel as if they are loosing a right in an assault weapons ban, it would be giving up that right to purchase an assault rifle for the better of society.

High capacity magazines in a standard hand gun really play no difference, a hand gun with a 16+1 magazine capacity vs a 10 round magazine really makes no difference, a standard hand gun accuracy with rapid fire is very inconsistent IMO
 
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@Joe Nichols

While I'm formulating a response to your question, I'd like to ask the following of you.

Acknowledging Canada has significantly fewer mass shootings than the US (along w/ fewer guns per capita), if by chance you were to find yourself actually caught up in one of these rare active shooter situations at an office complex or in a mall, and found yourself taking refuge in an office/rest room/closet/etc because you couldn't escape in time, would you rather that all of those trapped with you be unarmed or would you feel at least a bit more secure if at least one of them had a gun?

I hope you will be 100% honest in your reponse. Whatever your answer, I promise I won't ask you to explain your reasons.
That's a tough question to answer. In the moment, of course my instinct would be to want a gun. But the point of law is to make decisions for the betterment of all society, not to create a net loss for society in order to make people feel better in rare situations.

Am I glad the US has nuclear weapons as a deterrent to other countries? Of course. Would I prefer that all countries disarmed? Hell yes.

Law is reason free from passion. So your question, while thought-provoking, should not factor in.
 
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That's a tough question to answer. In the moment, of course my instinct would be to want a gun. But the point of law is to make decisions for the betterment of all society, not to create a net loss for society in order to make people feel better in rare situations.

Am I glad the US has nuclear weapons as a deterrent to other countries? Of course. Would I prefer that all countries disarmed? Hell yes.

Law is reason free from passion. So your question, while thought-provoking, should not factor in.
Thanks for the honest answer!

Still working on a response...

In the mean time, based on the current uproar about guns and the demand for their abolition, I'd say that the making of any new gun laws in the near future will definitely NOT be free of passion or be based solely on reason.

Our country's history is littered with laws that were created based solely on passion and fear.

Examples -
  • The laws that criminalized interracial marriage.
  • Those that criminalized homosexual sex.
  • And to get a little more current, the "get tough" drug laws of the 80's and 90's that have put people in prison for years including thousands for what are now considered minor drug offenses.
At the time, I'm sure "everyone" thought these laws were based upon "reason" (maybe even the "science" of the times), but in reality they were societal knee jerk reactions created to solve/prevent issues that scared people and meant to penalize otherwise innocent people.
 
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Thanks for the honest answer!

Still working on a response...

In the mean time, based on the current uproar about guns and the demand for their abolition, I'd say that the making of any new gun laws in the near future will definitely NOT be free of passion or be based solely on reason.

Our country's history is littered with laws that were created based solely on passion and fear.

Examples -
  • The laws that criminalized interracial marriage.
  • Those that criminalized homosexual sex.
  • And to get a little more current, the "get tough" drug laws of the 80's and 90's that have put people in prison for years including thousands for what are now considered minor drug offenses.
At the time, I'm sure "everyone" thought these laws were based upon "reason" (maybe even the "science" of the times), but in reality they were societal knee jerk reactions created to solve/prevent issues that scared people and meant to penalize otherwise innocent people.
Agreed that it's best not to make laws based on purely emotional reactions. Better to let statistics and common sense be the driving forces for change. And when possible, examine other changes that have been put into place in other countries to get a sense of what might be expected in the short and long term.
 
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