discuss Epik vs. Epic and Happy New Year!

[ThatNameGuy]

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=epik

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=domainer

Just like "domainer" isn't a real word, either is epik However, they both are found in the Urban Dictionary and Wiktionary, thus they're not made up words imho.

Like I have with other key words, I've just started accumulating a portfolio titled; EpikNames.com like; EpikTravel.com, EpikVegas.com and EpikJobs.com

Rob Monster the CEO of Epik.com was the first industry leader I met when I accidentally found the domain industry and the secondary market that Verisign says is "hidden in plain sight".

It's been said, if you want a new idea read an old book, and you may want to think of me as the old book I found this industry too late to be involved in "one word" domains, but two word domains have become my skill set that I've been told I'm pretty good at, and hopefully getting better.

Now getting back to Epik vs. Epic. As a business person, would you rather own the domain EpicTravel at 20K or EpikTravel at 2K? In my mind it's a No Brainer, but not so fast old time "domainers" might say? To put things in perspective, I just bought the domain EpikTravel.com from Epik.com for $8 and GD Values it at $1,343 while it Values EpicTravel at $6,455. And while those valuations sound way out of bounds, NameWorth values EpicTravel.com at $9,450 and EpikTravel.com at <less than $500. Furthermore, NameWorth values Epik.com at $64,000 and Epic.com at 10M, that's right ten million dollars

Finally, and maybe it's just me, but I like "Epik" better than "Epic"....maybe it's that EpikWeed I've been smoking. What say you?....Happy New Year

 

[Bob Hawkes]

It's not a misspelling actually. Kraft is a German dictionary word, translating to force.

And of course the famous one is based on a surname.

I might use it as a creative spelling of Craft, but because Kraft the food company is so well known, I would be very hesitant to do so, was my main point. In that way I like Epik better than Kraft, and I also like the visual aesthetics better.

Bob

 

[dirk]

And of course the famous one is based on a surname.

I might use it as a creative spelling of Craft, but because Kraft the food company is so well known, I would be very hesitant to do so, was my main point. In that way I like Epik better than Kraft, and I also like the visual aesthetics better.

Bob

Ah, didn't know it was based on a surname. Nice.

And yeah, I agree.

 

[Joe N]

And of course the famous one is based on a surname.

I might use it as a creative spelling of Craft, but because Kraft the food company is so well known, I would be very hesitant to do so, was my main point. In that way I like Epik better than Kraft, and I also like the visual aesthetics better.

Bob

Bob, one of your other points mentioned that it was encouraging to see that other companies use the name Epik. So if there are in fact more companies using Kraft (just supposing... I haven't checked), then by this logic, Kraft would actually be the better investment; particularly when you combine that with the NameBio data.

So really, in that case, your preference of Epik would come down to your own personal sense of aesthetics in a name.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

Ah, didn't know it was based on a surname.

Robert Kraft also owns the New England Patriots, who are about to lose a NFL playoff game today. (that statement should generate some dislikes )

But yes the Kraft family have quite the food products empire in North America and beyond.

 

[Joe N]

Additionally... a search on CrunchBase reveals far more organizations with Kraft in the name than Epik.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

So really, in that case, your preference of Epik would come down to your own personal sense of aesthetics in a name.

No, it comes down primarily to not wanting a name where the exact name was already used by one dominant company. I prefer a word where it finds use, but no one huge company uses it. That is the primary reason I don't like Kraft. I think people would view that you were either somehow related or had copied the name from them.
Bob

e.g. I Google Kraft and I need to go to 15th place to find a company or story not linked to the famous company. Now with Epik it is dominated by the Korean teaching service, and then some about Epik and controversies, so maybe not much difference. I would prefer over either a phonetic spelling of some word that is not dominated by any one entity.

 

[Joe N]

No, it comes down primarily to not wanting a name where the exact name was already used by one dominant company. I prefer a word where it finds use, but no one huge company uses it. That is the primary reason I don't like Kraft. I think people would view that you were either somehow related or had copied the name from them.
Bob

But doesn't the fact that many many existing companies use Kraft in their own names alleviate those concerns?

After all... as a domain investor, you're only concerned with what has the greater chance of selling, not with how a business owner might be perceived based on their name.

As mentioned by @NameDeck, Kraft even has a real, generic meaning in German.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

I am inclined to respectfully disagree, Joe. If a brand was super famous, I would be much less inclined to purchase a domain name with the same spelling for my startup. Like I would definitely avoid Kraft, to use one of your examples.

I have not researched the two-word names with Epik as much as either of you, but it seems there are at least a reasonable number of small to mid-companies. To me that is the situation you want - proof that some companies like it, but none too famous (at least if we overlook Epik itself) so that people seeing the name will think of that one company.

The vast majority of domain names sold in the aftermarket are not for companies that will become the top 1000 companies in North America, and yet many of these companies happily (?) pay low to high $$$$ to Huge Domains, the brandable marketplaces, etc. These are hand-reg (I presume) that @ThatNameGuy is registering, so say at $800 net sale it is a 100:1 ratio, so a sell-through rate of a couple of percent could work.

Please, no one misinterpret what i am saying. I think probability of selling most of these type of names is limited, as I said before, and I personally would not register a bunch. But I wouldn't actually register any name with Kraft,

Bob

Thanks Bob....i think you understand me, and the only thing I disagree with is "not registering a bunch". That may be good advice for the "average" Joe or domainer, but not for me. Lets take real estate for example, if I knew a high paying hi tech business was coming to town and I knew the market, I'd be scarfing up every low priced property I could afford. Sure I might have to put some money into them, but in real estate you always want to own the lowest priced property in a high priced neighborhood. As for domains, I now own 32 Epik two word domains. Do you know how much I paid for them?....$264 total. I could share my list, but know the domains I've purchased cover a variety of high value industries and businesses.

Basically, when I identify a "niche" so to speak I'm willing to exploit it to the very best of my ability. OK, lets just take one of the domains I bought for example, EpikMortgage.com. I'm not sure if you know how large the mortgage industry is in the US, but trust me, it's HUGE! Here's an example; i have several friends who work in the mortgage industry so I'm pretty familiar with the industry. I do know Epic Mortgage is a great name for a mortgage business, however the name is for sale at Uniregistry That said however, whether it be used for rebranding for someone like "Movement Mortgage" (i think it stands for Bowel Movement) or for a new mortgage business, Epik Mortgage is just as good imho. Keep in mind, I just paid $8 for it. Now multiply that by 32 with similar names and you'll see why I own " a bunch".

Thanks Bob...I'd be out playing 9Time™, but it's raining

 

[Bob Hawkes]

After all... as a domain investor, you're only concerned with what has the greater chance of selling, not with how a business owner might be perceived based on their name.

The two are not related?

As mentioned by @NameDeck, Kraft even has a real, generic meaning in German.

Agree a plus if your name is related to force, literal or figurative, in any way. The fact it is a surname also helps.

I agree if I was looking at German market Kraft is better. If you look at the 57 NameBio sales of a domain name involving Kraft, actually 12 of them are in .de, and even in .com a number are German words. The 12 in .de prop up the average price a lot - those 12 have an average sales price of $5829 whereas the average for the 33 that are in .com is $1158, the highest sale just over $5000. It looks to me like at least 4 of the top 7 .com sales on NameBio are in fact German applications. Kraft is a strong word for a brand in the German market.

Now NameBio is completely discouraging for combined words including Epik . Yes it seems at first glance like there are sales when you search on Epik but when you look at them most are ThePike type words.

I still feel that Kraft in North America is too tied up with the Kraft food empire to be a great unconventional spelling brand. Once again, my main point is I would prefer a phonetic word not associated with any prominent single company.

Bob

 

[Joe N]

The two are not related?

Chance of sale and a company's perception of brand are certainly related. My own perception of a company's perception of brand? It has absolutely no bearing. My own perception of a good brand has many personal biases. If data shows those biases to be inaccurate, I trust the data.

I still feel that Kraft in North America is too tied up with the Kraft food empire to be a great unconventional spelling brand. Once again, my main point is I would prefer a phonetic word not associated with any prominent single company.

As always, I respect your opinion, Bob. But as a data guy, I'm just surprised to see that you're more swayed by personal opinion than by what the numbers are telling us.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

the only thing I disagree with is "not registering a bunch"

Can I try to a little harder to persuade you that overall you might optimize your results by not going quite so overboard in related names?

I understand that in your analogy to real estate that if you are sure there is a demand eventually, and the price is good, property will get used. Now I know you have dreams of that extending to domain names, but until someone achieves it consistently we should not view that as a proven fact. I know you are critical of how things are done in domaining, but until someone over an extended time period shows me that a sell-through rate of more than 4% can be achieved, I think we are wise to assume at most that.

This means that most domain names will never sell . Really if you exclude the people with those positive common dictionary words and 2/3L .com and a few others, most names are not guaranteed to sell. Ever.

Why is that? It's not because the industry is evil or lazy or stupid. It is simply that this is an inexact science. Yes, you can look at statistics and trends and read a bunch from naming experts, and follow sales, etc. Doing those things increase your chances of being right, but it is not like land just on outskirts of a city. It is more like original works of art. It is hard to predict what modern art will sell and what will not.

But a few domains will sell and the trick is to sell enough at a high enough price to make up for those that don't sell. Now you might say, so I will register a lot and a few will sell. But really, I think it is better to force yourself to be really particular. Yes, start looking at say 50 available Epik names, for each one look at comparator sales, business prospects, visual and audio aesthetics, etc. If you allow yourself say only 5, they will be the best 5. You will edge quality up by only picking the best 5 combinations, the ones most likely to sell.

Yes, some of the ones you did not choose might have sold, but your overall portfolio will have a higher sell-through rate. There is one other important advantage, the smaller the portfolio, and the higher its quality, you will have the time to really concentrate on the best names.

I doubt I have convinced you, but I stand by what I said.

Take care,

Bob

 

[Bob Hawkes]

But as a data guy, I'm just surprised to see that you're more swayed by personal opinion than by what the numbers are telling us.

You did read what the kraft sales data I provided in the same post is really saying, did you? If I was combining it with a German term and aiming at that market, reasonable numbers although not great. If combining with an English word, the sales data on Kraft is not that great.

Speaking of data, I dug into kraft a bit deeper. There are only 8 .com sales in NameBio that had a sales price of $2000 or more (the highest value one is less than $6000). Of these, 2 sites resolve, 2 are for sale again, and 4 are unreachable. That to me is not a data slam dunk for kraft as a multi-word name.

Chance of sale and a company's perception of brand are certainly related. My own perception of a company's perception of brand? It has absolutely no bearing.

Of course it is not my perception. It is public perception. Try it. Ask 10 of your friends not in domaining what they think of when you say kraft. I would be very surprised of most do not say kraft foods. It is probably different outside North America, certainly different in Germany.

Bob

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Can I try to a little harder to persuade you that overall you might optimize your results by not going quite so overboard in related names?

I understand that in your analogy to real estate that if you are sure there is a demand eventually, and the price is good, property will get used. Now I know you have dreams of that extending to domain names, but until someone achieves it consistently we should not view that as a proven fact. I know you are critical of how things are done in domaining, but until someone over an extended time period shows me that a sell-through rate of more than 4% can be achieved, I think we are wise to assume at most that.

This means that most domain names will never sell . Really if you exclude the people with those positive common dictionary words and 2/3L and a few others, most names are not guaranteed to sell. Ever.

Why is that? It's not because the industry is evil or lazy or stupid. It is simply that this is an inexact science. Yes, you can look at statistics and trends and read a bunch from naming experts, and follow sales, etc. Doing those things increase your chances of being right, but it is not like land just on outskirts of a city. It is more like original works of art. It is hard to predict what modern art will sell and what will not.

But a few domains will sell and the trick is to sell enough at a high enough price to make up for those that don't sell. Now you might say, so I will register a lot and a few will sell. But really, I think it is better to force yourself to be really particular. Yes, start with say 50 available Epik names but each one look at comparator sales, business prospects, visual and audio aesthetics, etc. If you allow only say 5, they will be the best 5.

Yes, some of the ones you did not choose might have sold, but your overall portfolio will have a higher sell-through rate. There is one other important advantage, the smaller the portfolio, and the higher its quality, you will have the time to really concentrate on the best names.

I doubt I have convinced you, but I stand by what I said.

Take care,

Bob

Thanks Bob.....you might say i can't help myself, and maybe that's a bad thing, but maybe not? Have you ever seen any of these game shows where the prize is a 5 minute shopping spree in a grocery store where you can keep everything you can put in your basket(s) in five minutes? Well, a smart shopper should probably go for the lobster, the caviar and the filet mignon right? Sure I spent $264 on 32 domains that I consider niche domains, but they're just sitting there on the shelf waiting for someone to pick them up. Granted, if I didn't have knowledge of industry, business, names/domains, or I lacked common sense, I wouldn't care to go on a domain shopping spree. However, to have picked up the domains I did for what I paid and what I know, it feels like a FREE SHOPPING SPREE to me. Does that make sense?

 

[Bob Hawkes]

Just to expand the data a bit, I took epik plus all the more popular words suggested by @Joe Nichols and looked in NameBio for last two years only, since I wanted current use/branding interest. Now lite is difficult because it appears in many parts of a word where clearly it is not meant as lite at all, so I combined all suffix plus all prefix to get the figures for that. There are probably a few outliers. Here is what I found.

• epik 0, -
• kraft 8, $1273
• brite 9, $457
• luv 25, $611 (there are probably a few in this not really luv)
• lite 23, $403

So is Joe right? It would appear so. At least those terms sell better than epik. But most of the prices are fairly modest, especially in the popular terms.

But how do these compare to say a real word? I did only a few of these, and only using suffix + prefix lists at NameBio to exclude most chance occurrences. Again just .com and just last 2 years.

• epic 40, $745
• bright 65, $886
• love 143, $1233

I seem to recall some wise people told us this early in the thread . We should have listened to those people.

But maybe it is just that there are so few for sale, and really the sell-through rates on the phonetic spelling are not that bad. So for brite I looked at that -- 1388 domain names for sale including that anywhere (Dofo data). Then I did same for bright - 8208 for sale. So about 5.9x as many for sale and about 7.2 times as many sold, so only a slight sell-through rate advantage to bright, although average price also better, so the investment advantage is a bit, but not huge. I see a near draw.

The overall annual sell-through rate on brite (although not just in .com) appears to be 0.3%. Epik can't be calculated for this two year period, or I guess is calculated at 0. I did not do the others.

Bob

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Can I try to a little harder to persuade you that overall you might optimize your results by not going quite so overboard in related names?

I understand that in your analogy to real estate that if you are sure there is a demand eventually, and the price is good, property will get used. Now I know you have dreams of that extending to domain names, but until someone achieves it consistently we should not view that as a proven fact. I know you are critical of how things are done in domaining, but until someone over an extended time period shows me that a sell-through rate of more than 4% can be achieved, I think we are wise to assume at most that.

This means that most domain names will never sell . Really if you exclude the people with those positive common dictionary words and 2/3L .com and a few others, most names are not guaranteed to sell. Ever.

Why is that? It's not because the industry is evil or lazy or stupid. It is simply that this is an inexact science. Yes, you can look at statistics and trends and read a bunch from naming experts, and follow sales, etc. Doing those things increase your chances of being right, but it is not like land just on outskirts of a city. It is more like original works of art. It is hard to predict what modern art will sell and what will not.

But a few domains will sell and the trick is to sell enough at a high enough price to make up for those that don't sell. Now you might say, so I will register a lot and a few will sell. But really, I think it is better to force yourself to be really particular. Yes, start looking at say 50 available Epik names, for each one look at comparator sales, business prospects, visual and audio aesthetics, etc. If you allow yourself say only 5, they will be the best 5. You will edge quality up by only picking the best 5 combinations, the ones most likely to sell.

Yes, some of the ones you did not choose might have sold, but your overall portfolio will have a higher sell-through rate. There is one other important advantage, the smaller the portfolio, and the higher its quality, you will have the time to really concentrate on the best names.

I doubt I have convinced you, but I stand by what I said.

Take care,

Bob

Just one more thing Bob. I know you've heard that in sales, you're more apt to be successful if what you're selling you believe in...right? Before I even thought in terms of Epik, I'd bought the domain EpicTrump.com back in May 05/16/2019 to be exact. I didn't vote for Trump, but I am a former Never Trumper whose neither a Democrat or a Republican. So between my neighbors sleek Ocean Epic Kayak (with a "K" btw) and Rob Monsters Epik.com I'm beginning to see why I'm so involved. Actually if you had said to me that Epic had another spelling and it was Epik, I would have believed you. I actually have plans to monetize my EpicTrump.com domain and another domain I own LibsForTrump.com if only I had a developer I'm very close with the owner of a hat and tee shirt company who I have done business with in the past, but sharing any more I know is off topic...sorry. Thanks again Bob

 

[Bob Hawkes]

you're more apt to be successful if what you're selling you believe in...right?

I do agree with that.

But I also still believe that Less is More in domains. If we set limits - I will only invest x amount total in domains, or I will only reinvest what I make, or I will spend only z each month, it forces us to make really good choices. And that, ultimately, leads to better quality and more success.

I wish you well, and we all of course are responsible our own decisions, but I have found setting limits on my acquisitions helpful. Of course I am a 6 year old in many ways

Someone needs to come up with a gamification app to give rewards for not going overboard on acquisitions!

@Joe Nichols is right that as much as I like data I am swayed by what I perceive to be aesthetics, public acceptance and other factors even when I don't have hard data. I still like the look of epik, and how it goes with certain types of action words, but hard to find data to support it. And I still feel negative on both kraft and luv from Joe's list, for different reasons.

Anyway this long discussion has kept me away from being tempted to break my acquisition fast, and that is, perhaps, good (32 days no acquisitions).

Have a good day everyone,

Bob

 

[ThatNameGuy]

I do agree with that.

But I also still believe that Less is More in domains. If we set limits - I will only invest x amount total in domains, or I will only reinvest what I make, or I will spend only z each month, it forces us to make really good choices. And that, ultimately, leads to better quality and more success.

I wish you well, and we all of course are responsible our own decisions, but I have found setting limits on my acquisitions helpful. Of course I am a 6 year old in many ways

Someone needs to come up with a gamification app to give rewards for not going overboard on acquisitions!

@Joe Nichols is right that as much as I like data I am swayed by what I perceive to be aesthetics, public acceptance and other factors even when I don't have hard data. I still like the look of epik, and how it goes with certain types of action words, but hard to find data to support it. And I still feel negative on both kraft and luv from Joe's list, for different reasons.

Anyway this long discussion has kept me away from being tempted to break my acquisition fast, and that is, perhaps, good (32 days no acquisitions).

Have a good day everyone,

Bob

(32 days no acquisitions)....Holy Crap...you should be all skin and bones by now. Can I send you a care package?

 

[Joe N]

You did read what the kraft sales data I provided in the same post is really saying, did you? If I was combining it with a German term and aiming at that market, reasonable numbers although not great. If combining with an English word, the sales data on Kraft is not that great.

Speaking of data, I dug into kraft a bit deeper. There are only 8 .com sales in NameBio that had a sales price of $2000 or more (the highest value one is less than $6000). Of these, 2 sites resolve, 2 are for sale again, and 4 are unreachable. That to me is not a data slam dunk for kraft as a multi-word name.

I did read that post, yes, and appreciate the research. I agree that Kraft is by no means an ideal keyword choice for an English domain. I just think I would be more likely to own a name with Kraft than with Epik, in part because of my own biases, and in part because there is some mild statistical support for the word as a part of domain names. However, I would only focus on really nice pairings (I, like you, also believe in being selective).

Some Kraft names I would enjoy owning: BrewKraft, KraftWork(s), KraftKing (I'm a sucker for alliteration).

Of course it is not my perception. It is public perception. Try it. Ask 10 of your friends not in domaining what they think of when you say kraft. I would be very surprised of most do not say kraft foods. It is probably different outside North America, certainly different in Germany.

Agreed, but that does not mean that the average business owner would shy away from a Kraft name due to that likelihood. I would need more evidence to support that concern.

 

[Joe N]

Just to expand the data a bit, I took epik plus all the more popular words suggested by @Joe Nichols and looked in NameBio for last two years only, since I wanted current use/branding interest. Now lite is difficult because it appears in many parts of a word where clearly it is not meant as lite at all, so I combined all suffix plus all prefix to get the figures for that. There are probably a few outliers. Here is what I found.

• epik 0, -
• kraft 8, $1273
• brite 9, $457
• luv 25, $611 (there are probably a few in this not really luv)
• lite 23, $403

So is Joe right? It would appear so. At least those terms sell better than epik. But most of the prices are fairly modest, especially in the popular terms.

But how do these compare to say a real word? I did only a few of these, and only using suffix + prefix lists at NameBio to exclude most chance occurrences. Again just .com and just last 2 years.

• epic 40, $745
• bright 65, $886
• love 143, $1233

I seem to recall some wise people told us this early in the thread . We should have listened to those people.

But maybe it is just that there are so few for sale, and really the sell-through rates on the phonetic spelling are not that bad. So for brite I looked at that -- 1388 domain names for sale including that anywhere (Dofo data). Then I did same for bright - 8208 for sale. So about 5.9x as many for sale and about 7.2 times as many sold, so only a slight sell-through rate advantage to bright, although average price also better, so the investment advantage is a bit, but not huge. I see a near draw.

The overall annual sell-through rate on brite (although not just in .com) appears to be 0.3%. Epik can't be calculated for this two year period, or I guess is calculated at 0. I did not do the others.

Bob

Thanks for digging out those numbers, Bob. In the end, I think what the data tells us is what most of us suspected: In general, two word names with properly spelled words are a better investment.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Thanks for digging out those numbers, Bob. In the end, I think what the data tells us is what most of us suspected: In general, two word names with properly spelled words are a better investment.

There really isn't enough data to support that until you check with Epikiq.com or maybe EpikTrust. Those folks will have all the answers in a few years, or you might check with an Epikid