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End User Sale - Push before payment?

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lobbyist88

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Would love to get everyone's opinion on this.

For those of you who manage a fair amount of low-mid $$$ end user sales have you ever pushed a domain prior to payment? (Assuming paypal is means of payment)
I don't know the validity of the source, but nameflipper.com stated that they have pushed prior to payment on 150+ sales, and have never been conned or cheated.

If worse comes to worse and you do get ripped off is there any action you can take?
 
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AfternicAfternic
End user sale = Payment before Push :) OR ESCROW :)
 
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Offer to point to their DNS prior to payment to show intent, but payment before push.
 
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I know there are some domainers using to push the domain before the payment only if the end-user is reputable, and maybe if they have talked with him through phone and established a contact.

It depends by lot of elements.
Usually if you can find the end-user (i mean the CEO or well the employer you are negotiating with) on sites like Linkedin or Manta or others similar, and you find their informations (address, phone, feedbacks etc), i would trust in them and maybe, sometimes, depending by how much the domain could worth (if it has a large market or if it's very niche etc..) i could push the domain before the payment.

But this initiative must start by your own, if you want to show your good intention, and not after a request by them. I wouldn't trust in them if they ask me to push the domain before the payment.
 
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Even if you do push before being paid .. i think you still can file a complaint at the customer support and have the change reversed . Atleast GoDaddy allows that .. but you have to phone the customer support within 15 days .
 
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Why not just go through Escrow?
 
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Always payment before push, An enduser is no different they wouldnt expect to get a car and drive it away without the garage taken payment first, so why should they get a domain first before they pay for it.

Most endusers are fine with that - Worse case then I would offer 50% now 50% after push but shouldnt be an issue.
 
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In over 200 end-user sales I have overseen, in which I have always pushed before requesting payment, I have never once been robbed. I've written my thoughts on this subject too many times to count.

In my response to end-users' "how much?" e-mails, in which I quote my price tag, I also say that if they accept my offer I will transfer them the domain and expect to receive payment within 24 hours following transfer. This push-before-transfer obligement is a selling point that helps the end-user feel more comfortable moving forward with the transaction, hence they are much less likely to hesitate in deciding whether to accept your offer, and less likely to retract their acceptance upon consulting with their colleagues for advice.

So, here's how I see it: say 1 in every 100 end-users you sell to ends up "robbing" you (an over-estimate from my experience), but 5 in every 100 end-users you sell to would only agree to purchase your domain if you pushed first (a very realistic estimate from my experience).

Assuming your "agreed upon" (i.e. you and your buyer arrive at a price consensus, but no transaction has necessarily occurred yet) end-user sell-through rate is 5% across all your domain names, you own 10,000 domain names, and your average end-user sale agreement is for $400. That makes $400 x 500 = $200,000 in agreed upon end-user sales.

Based on the above parameters, if say you will not push without receiving payment first, 5% x 500 = 25 of those end-users will "disappear" and not complete the sale. You hence earn $190,000 instead of the agreed upon $200,000.

If you agree to push before receiving payment, 1% x 500 = 5 of those end-users will rob you. Assuming you fail to get those domains back, you earn $198,000 instead of the agreed upon $200,000.

So if you push before payment, you are $8,000 wealthier.

Using escrow prolongs the period between agreement and closing and hence extends the window during which the end-user could change his mind about whether to purchase your domain in consulting friends/colleagues for advice. In fact, the very decision to use escrow instead of straight-out pushing makes the end-user very slightly more likely to change his mind because he might not have heard of escrow before and might not feel like researching the subject. That or he might might make make a fuss about having to pay escrow fees which you did not account for in your price quote. I know this assertion sounds silly to some, but trust me, end-user domain sales are an extremely delicate animal because of how negatively the world at large perceives domainers. You should absolutely minimize the window between agreement and closing to the best of your ability.

That being said, it is almost certainly worth your while to use escrow for transactions of $1K+ and above and transactions with individuals from non English-speaking countries, particularly from the Middle East and southeast Asia due to high incidence of credit card fraud. I'll say it again: it's critical to call upon Escrow to cover your a** when engaging in high-volume or high-risk transactions. But for exchanges which fall within that $300-$500 quick-flip-to-enduser "sweet spot", I am absolutely convinced you'll lose money overall by not pushing first, or even by agreeing to use escrow.

Legal note: I take no responsibility, financial or otherwise, for any perceived monetary losses resulting from my advice.
 
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I wouldn't push over any high value domains prior to payment. But for domains
of lesser value, I wouldn't stress it too much.
 
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Any higher value domain names I would use escrow or expect payment first.

I have sold many domain names in the low-mid $xxx to end users, most of which are small businesses with established websites. I always push the name first as they have no idea who I am and, as Josh says above, a fair percentage of sales would almost certainly fall through without this.

At the end of the day most established offline businesses are just as interested in getting the name as you are in getting the money. If I am selling a near reg fee name for low-mid $xxx, my risk factor is low and the goodwill it generates outweighs any potential loss.

Each case should be judged on its merits but end users have so far respected the trust I have put in them.
 
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In general I use Escrow even for smaller sales, mainly for the buyer's benefit. They feel more secure with it.

I have pushed domains first in the past only under the following situations

1.) I contacted the end user first.
2.) It is a smaller sale.
3.) The buyer has some type of credibility.

Brad
 
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I want to add: ROI is something one should always consider. Let's assume that everything Josh said was true and you got ripped off 1 time out of 100. A question to ask yourself is: How much did this domain cost me? With nameflipper domains, you can get the dropped/deleted domain on GoDaddy backorders for as low as about $7.50 if you know how. So if this 'stolen' domain only cost you $10 or less, I wouldn't bitch too much about being robbed. Sure, you might be out of a potential $300 but if you only lost <$10, you shouldn't fret too much.


In over 200 end-user sales I have overseen, in which I have always pushed before requesting payment, I have never once been robbed. I've written my thoughts on this subject too many times to count.

In my response to end-users' "how much?" e-mails, in which I quote my price tag, I also say that if they accept my offer I will transfer them the domain and expect to receive payment within 24 hours following transfer. This push-before-transfer obligement is a selling point that helps the end-user feel more comfortable moving forward with the transaction, hence they are much less likely to hesitate in deciding whether to accept your offer, and less likely to retract their acceptance upon consulting with their colleagues for advice.

So, here's how I see it: say 1 in every 100 end-users you sell to ends up "robbing" you (an over-estimate from my experience), but 5 in every 100 end-users you sell to would only agree to purchase your domain if you pushed first (a very realistic estimate from my experience).

Assuming your "agreed upon" (i.e. you and your buyer arrive at a price consensus, but no transaction has necessarily occurred yet) end-user sell-through rate is 5% across all your domain names, you own 10,000 domain names, and your average end-user sale agreement is for $400. That makes $400 x 500 = $200,000 in agreed upon end-user sales.

Based on the above parameters, if say you will not push without receiving payment first, 5% x 500 = 25 of those end-users will "disappear" and not complete the sale. You hence earn $190,000 instead of the agreed upon $200,000.

If you agree to push before receiving payment, 1% x 500 = 5 of those end-users will rob you. Assuming you fail to get those domains back, you earn $198,000 instead of the agreed upon $200,000.

So if you push before payment, you are $8,000 wealthier.

Using escrow prolongs the period between agreement and closing and hence extends the window during which the end-user could change his mind about whether to purchase your domain in consulting friends/colleagues for advice. In fact, the very decision to use escrow instead of straight-out pushing makes the end-user very slightly more likely to change his mind because he might not have heard of escrow before and might not feel like researching the subject. That or he might might make make a fuss about having to pay escrow fees which you did not account for in your price quote. I know this assertion sounds silly to some, but trust me, end-user domain sales are an extremely delicate animal because of how negatively the world at large perceives domainers. You should absolutely minimize the window between agreement and closing to the best of your ability.

That being said, it is almost certainly worth your while to use escrow for transactions of $1K+ and above and transactions with individuals from non English-speaking countries, particularly from the Middle East and southeast Asia due to high incidence of credit card fraud. I'll say it again: it's critical to call upon Escrow to cover your a** when engaging in high-volume or high-risk transactions. But for exchanges which fall within that $300-$500 quick-flip-to-enduser "sweet spot", I am absolutely convinced you'll lose money overall by not pushing first, or even by agreeing to use escrow.

Legal note: I take no responsibility, financial or otherwise, for any perceived monetary losses resulting from my advice.
 
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Payment please

I've always been paid before push but in most cases the end user had contacted me and talked to me over the phone so they had some other method of contact besides email.
 
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HuntingMoon's retail division pushes after payment & receipt of signed doc's on all sales over $500.

It might make sense to push a name prior to payment in certain legal cases where there are attorneys and a paper trail already however.
 
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would be crazy to push before payment received.
 
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3.) The buyer has some type of credibility.

BINGO!!!

In general I use Escrow even for smaller sales, mainly for the buyer's benefit. They feel more secure with it.

I have pushed domains first in the past only under the following situations

1.) I contacted the end user first.
2.) It is a smaller sale.
3.) The buyer has some type of credibility.

Brad
 
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