new gtlds Domain Name News That Will Spook You!

[eenmakkie]

Imagine registering a new domain, at he moment you registered the new domain, it was not a premium top level domain. So you pay a fair price for it.
You think it is yours and every year you have to pay the same renewal price.

That is what I did by godaddy.com
I bought a new TLD domain when they came on the market.

started offering it for sale.

Now when the next renewal is coming close, I went to my godaddy.com account and suddenly they wanted 499.99$ to renew the domain for a year. A huge multiple increase compare to the price I paid to register the name.
I called help desk and they told that the domain has become top level domain name as they have seen the value of it.

what?!!!!!

So you buy a domain, spent a lot of money and work on the website, make a business around it, it becomes big on the market, you start to earn millions and suddenly the registrars can ask you what ever they want to renew your domain as they have seen the value of your domain now?

And if you do not pay the extravagant renewal price they ask, it becomes there's? So then they can sell your hard work?

Is this legal?

So what google.com or facebook.com they bought there domains for 1000 years upfront to avoid that the registrar can ask them a couple of billions to renew their domains?

 

[eenmakkie]

@brindle123 check the questions and answers. Also here the printscreen.it happens as written
@doubleU @wwwweb @SiteMachine

 

[wwwweb]

check the questions and answers. Also here the printscreen.it happens as written
[/USER]

It shows up as a $40-45 domain, not sure how they got $500?

 

[eenmakkie]

It shows up as a $40-45 domain, not sure how they got $500?

yes after

 

[eenmakkie]

I answered the questions addressed to me in line above.

thanks Joe for your brief reply.
I did not received your email address to sent the printscreens via personal message as asked, I understood you wanted to see them via here.
the domains .pink .red . blue mentioned Sunday at 12:54 AM still show up as a 90$ renewal for the last 3 days attached print screens . I registered then for 16.99$ I see on Godaddy those extensions for 13,99$, why I have to pay 90$ now?

Apologies that the contact is going via this way, I tried first different via phone etc and lost a lot of time on all this. Included the idea of security. As the answer is still unclear. Can or Can't ...
then the only protection is the registrar informing me upfront of an upcoming price increase for a particular domain outside for the whole extension (as that would not be possible to inform all)

When you have time, can you please answer the question below, thanks:
4.Regarding the comment of George Kirkos: If a registry increases the renewal rates of a particular domain, and passes that info to Godaddy as registrar, does Godaddy informs the registrant about the upcoming renewal price increase ? So at least we can take the right of the renewing at the old price before the 6 months expire?

 

[NameYourself]

I warned of this as did some others many times before but it fell on deaf ears amid the new excitement of eager domainers looking to scoop up all these new opportunities (scams). All your time, effort, and money invested in a new tld can be gone in an instant, without warning should the registries decide to alter their prices on a per name basis to whatever they want. They win either way by doing this as you'll either pay them what they want to keep what you built or paid in already through premium fees, or if you don't they will get to reclaim it and either monetize it or reauction it to someone else. This is permissible by ICANN as there are no pricing restrictions on the new tlds. Such loose pricing policies and lack of oversight by ICANN allowed this to happen and it will continue to happen. There are so many problems with the way the internet is being governed right now.

 

[wwwweb]

yes after

Well let Godaddy know, I am sure they will fix it, I see no reason for it to be a $500 domain

thanks Joe for your brief reply.
I did not received your email address to sent the printscreens via personal message as asked, I understood you wanted to see them via here.
the domains .pink .red . blue mentioned Sunday at 12:54 AM still show up as a 90$ renewal for the last 3 days attached print screens . I registered then for 16.99$ I see on Godaddy those extensions for 13,99$, why I have to pay 90$ now?

Apologies that the contact is going via this way, I tried first different via phone etc and lost a lot of time on all this. Included the idea of security. As the answer is still unclear. Can or Can't ...
then the only protection is the registrar informing me upfront of an upcoming price increase for a particular domain outside for the whole extension (as that would not be possible to inform all)

When you have time, can you please answer the question below, thanks:
4.Regarding the comment of George Kirkos: If a registry increases the renewal rates of a particular domain, and passes that info to Godaddy as registrar, does Godaddy informs the registrant about the upcoming renewal price increase ? So at least we can take the right of the renewing at the old price before the 6 months expire?

I see all these domains costing about $14, I don't know why you are being charged $90 for them?

 

[Joe Styler]

thanks Joe for your brief reply.
I did not received your email address to sent the printscreens via personal message as asked, I understood you wanted to see them via here.
the domains .pink .red . blue mentioned Sunday at 12:54 AM still show up as a 90$ renewal for the last 3 days attached print screens . I registered then for 16.99$ I see on Godaddy those extensions for 13,99$, why I have to pay 90$ now?

Apologies that the contact is going via this way, I tried first different via phone etc and lost a lot of time on all this. Included the idea of security. As the answer is still unclear. Can or Can't ...
then the only protection is the registrar informing me upfront of an upcoming price increase for a particular domain outside for the whole extension (as that would not be possible to inform all)

When you have time, can you please answer the question below, thanks:
4.Regarding the comment of George Kirkos: If a registry increases the renewal rates of a particular domain, and passes that info to Godaddy as registrar, does Godaddy informs the registrant about the upcoming renewal price increase ? So at least we can take the right of the renewing at the old price before the 6 months expire?

Thanks, I did give you my email address in the response earlier and respond to the number 4. I don't mind you posting on here though as long as we have the info I can look into it. I offered my email in case you did not want to share your domain purchases publicly. Now that I have the domains I can have someone take a look at it and get back to you.

 

[SiteMachine]

Here are the results my program got for your domain.

"IsPremiumName"=>"false", "PremiumRegistrationPrice"=>"0", "PremiumRenewalPrice"=>"0", "PremiumRestorePrice"=>"0", "PremiumTransferPrice"=>"0", "IcannFee"=>"0", "EapFee"=>"0"

Your beef is with the registrar not the registry.

The pink red and blue domains reflect the regular godaddy price it has nothing to do with premium. It looks to me like you are getting a lesson in transferring domains 101, its a good skill to have. They are not premium so you can transfer them for ~$9.89 each now.

 

[brindle123]

@Joe Styler

-I have not seen any new tld significantly raise pricing on domains that a customer holds already with the exception of that article by Mr. Berkens

But the registry does have the right to raise the price to anything the wish? Correct? Even if that domain is registered.

Also there are some good comments by people like George Kirkos that point out links to the actual agreements the registries have with ICANN.

Do you have a link to the George Kirkos comments? I did a site search here on NP and only came up with this thread. I've read through what I could of the ICANN agreement, but couldn't find the answers I was looking for.

The agreements are a little hard for us laymen to wrap our heads around. When I read it, there is nothing about giving the registrant notice of a price change. The registry has to give notice to the registrar and ICANN, but not the registrant as far as I could tell.

I believe the only time it mentions the 10 registration is for the initial registration of the domain. That is the only time you can renew the domain for 10yrs at that current price. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

At anytime after you've registered a domain, the price for renewal can go up to whatever amount and you have to pay the new amount when you renew. Correct.

You cannot say I now want to reg it for 10 years at the old renewal price. Correct.

Thanks in advance.

 

[eenmakkie]

Thanks, I did give you my email address in the response earlier and respond to the number 4. I don't mind you posting on here though as long as we have the info I can look into it. I offered my email in case you did not want to share your domain purchases publicly. Now that I have the domains I can have someone take a look at it and get back to you.

Thanks Joe, I probably have looked over your email address, but where exactly do I need to look for your email address. I looked also to private message, but only from Donut I received one.

So regarding the question 4:
4.Regarding the comment of George Kirkos: If a registry increases the renewal rates of a particular domain, and passes that info to Godaddy as registrar, does Godaddy informs the registrant about the upcoming renewal price increase ? So at least we can take the right of the renewing at the old price before the 6 months expire?

your answer was:

-Any registry can raise prices on the domains they sell. .com has done this almost every year. Yes it's a smaller percent but it is still a price raise. If there is a major price change on your domains Godaddy is normally very proactive at helping customers. We have award winning customer service and strive to create the best experience for our customers and help their small businesses to succeed so informing customers of big price changes would be in keeping with this focus.

That would be a very good service and i am happy to pay more for that. And the first REGISTRAR that comes out telling this.

It would be nice of you if you explain it a bit better, as I am not a 100% sure we are talking about the same.
I mean the price increases as happened to Mr. Berkens on a per domain level (not the entire extension that goes up. Lets give an example: ibiza.villas , (gets stored at Godaddy) a premium-priced domain has now a website and is increasing in value. It gets revalued by Donut and on the next renewal the price would be 499$.

1. Donut informs the price hike to the registrar (Godaddy) .
2. Would Godaddy proactive notify their client that a price increase is coming to 499$ for the next renewal?
3. And would Godaddy advice the client on there rights that within 6 months they still can renew the domain at the previous renewal price of 70$ and up till 10 years if they wish to?

If Godaddy can give that service and security to there clients, they win.
Any domain investor can then buy upfront 10 years at the old renewal price and include it in the sale price without scaring potential clients with a 499$ yearly renewal price. = the domain trader doesn't lose value on that domain.

 

[Joe Styler]

Just a quick note to let you know I am still looking into this. I am working with the domain team to get some answers on what happened with this domain.

On the question about raising prices and notifying you as a customer I can only answer what I have said. I am not a lawyer and do not want to comment on the agreements which is why I point you to ICANN to read and interpret them.

I CAN speak to the customer service side and have said that we have a history of providing excellent customer service and that we do what we can to help make small business successful which includes domain investors. I can only point to our track record on what we have done. I cannot make statements about what can happen in the future as no one knows the future. I will say that we have been through an ownership change and have gone public over the 10+ years I have been here. Meaning we have had three different owners, each came with changes, however, one constant has always been our focus on providing excellent service. I do not see that changing any time soon. I think that providing customers with advance notice of price increases would fall into that category. We have always allowed customers to renew domains for 10 years in advance as long as I have worked here. I also do not see that changing.

I will figure out what happened here with the price increase error and report back. I have notified a Vice President who is helping me look into it.

 

[eenmakkie]

@Joe Styler
Do you have a link to the George Kirkos comments? I did a site search here on NP and only came up with this thread. I've read through what I could of the ICANN agreement, but couldn't find the answers I was looking for.

The agreements are a little hard for us laymen to wrap our heads around. When I read it, there is nothing about giving the registrant notice of a price change. The registry has to give notice to the registrar and ICANN, but not the registrant as far as I could tell.

of one of the links posted above:

George Kirikos says

September 23, 2015 at 12:02 pm

Actually, that’s not quite correct. The new gTLDs registries have to give *ICANN* and the *registrar* the notice. Whether the registrar passes on the bad news to the clients would be something determined by the RAA — and I don’t think the RAA contemplated that scenario.

BTW, Mike, for “Premium” names, section 2.10(c) of the horse ICANN agreement says:

“In addition, Registry Operator must have uniform pricing for renewals of domain name registrations (“Renewal Pricing”). For the purposes of determining Renewal Pricing, the price for each domain registration renewal must be identical to the price of all other domain name registration renewals in place at the time of such renewal, and such price must take into account universal application of any refunds, rebates, discounts, product tying or other programs in place at the time of renewal. The foregoing requirements of this Section 2.10(c) shall not apply for (i) purposes of determining Renewal Pricing if the registrar has provided Registry Operator with documentation that demonstrates that the applicable registrant expressly agreed in its registration agreement with registrar to higher Renewal Pricing at the time of the initial registration of the domain name following clear and conspicuous disclosure of such Renewal Pricing to such registrant, and (ii) discounted Renewal Pricing pursuant to a Qualified Marketing Program (as defined below). ”

George Kirikos post that answer in the blog of Mr. Berkens. The only think is I think it is not for all domains, as he was speaking about the .horse there (if I remember good). So for Donut it is best that @Andee Hill comments on this if Donut has the same terms & conditions as M+M regarding this.

thanks

 

[eenmakkie]

On the question about raising prices and notifying you as a customer I can only answer what I have said. I am not a lawyer and do not want to comment on the agreements which is why I point you to ICANN to read and interpret them.

I CAN speak to the customer service side and have said that we have a history of providing excellent customer service and that we do what we can to help make small business successful which includes domain investors. I can only point to our track record on what we have done. I cannot make statements about what can happen in the future as no one knows the future. I will say that we have been through an ownership change and have gone public over the 10+ years I have been here. Meaning we have had three different owners, each came with changes, however, one constant has always been our focus on providing excellent service. I do not see that changing any time soon. I think that providing customers with advance notice of price increases would fall into that category. We have always allowed customers to renew domains for 10 years in advance as long as I have worked here. I also do not see that changing.

I will figure out what happened here with the price increase error and report back. I have notified a Vice President who is helping me look into it.

I believe it would be a great business opportunity as first Godaddy shows you are on the side of your clients and 2nd (if the price increase is huge as I notices) they (clients will be happy to renew direct for 10 years upfront at the old price. An other win for Godaddy.

Ofcourse I start to understand that the rules maybe are different with each registry, (as George Kirikos post was for .horse) but as Godaddy is so advanced with automation, it won't be a problem to implement that to.

My days of stock market trader, I did bed on the .com crash and won several European competitions those days.

But nobody of us: domain traders, domain investors, registries, registrars, do want to see a .newGTLD crash. As we will loose all together.

Ones the domain traders & investors can't sell there domains any more to retail due to high renewal fees, that will be the point the crash is near.
I don't think one can trade short on domains, so the only winners will be the .coms out of this and as you can see my account now, I almost have no .coms and all invested in newGTLDs
and still transferring domains in to Godaddy as yesterday again.

 

[eenmakkie]

-I have not seen any new tld significantly raise pricing on domains that a customer holds already with the exception of that article by Mr. Berkens.

if you have not seen any, that it might interest you as marketing study what went true me, the process:
1. seeing the renewal price of 499$ -> disbelieve, must be an error
2. calling helpdesk -> believe it was true
3. panic and fear (the greatest selling product)
4. looking on all other registrar accounts and finding them at 101domain for old price: surprised and happy, still believe it was true and here probably a late reaction to the price increase.
5. I directly bought several renewal years.
5a If I knew I would had the right to do it for 10 years, and if I had placed already work as a website or a lot of adversing to sell the domain, I probably would have bought for 10 years knowing that my normal domain was a premium domain now, together with the 10 years renewal, it would be a great selling and valuation increase help.
Maybe you guys know already all of this and I was a test object.

Take 4 and 5 out of this, so only pay the 499$ or loose the domain (as the help desk guy told me) and you get only big anger and mistrust in the industry. In these days of social media where news moves fast, it will be the trigger of the crash.

I have no problem in accepting the terms&conditions aldo I have not read them, doesn't mean they where not there at the moment of registering a domain. All if a softener or other option is offered at the same time as the right to renew at old prices for next 10 years.
Maybe we should do a poll here for the domain traders/investors, would they accept the softener of old renewal prices and buy it directly for 10 years? Or just take the domain as a loss and don't renew at all.

 

[brindle123]

This is as much as I understand right now.

I can renew any domain I own for up to 10yrs at the current renewal price. Once that price has gone up, I will have to pay that new price. There is no going back to renew at old price.

Example: XXXX.com (not mine) current renewal price is $8.29. It is registered until Dec. 31, 2016. I can renew it right now for 10 more years at $8.29 to total $82.90.

Price increases tonight at midnight, but I didn't renew XXXX.com today because I was busy, forgot, or didn't get a notice of price increase. Tomorrow I see that renewals for .com have gone up to $15, so I jump online to renew it. I can still renew it for 10 years, but I have to now pay the $15 for renewals. I can not go in and renew for 10yrs at $8.29. So my new total to renew for 10yrs is $150.

Example #2: XXXX.villas is $20 to renew. The renewal price went up yesterday for just XXXX.villas domain not just all .villas domains, but they could have gone up also. So the new renewal price for just the XXXX.villas is now $200. This is what the registry is now telling the registrar to charge for XXXX.villas domain. Other .villas could be higher or could be lower than XXXX.villas To register any new .villas is only $25, but renewal for XXXX.villas is now $200. I can not go into my account and renew it at the old $20 price or the $25. Since the registry is telling the registrar what to charge me, I have to now pay the $200.

I hope you could follow those examples and I explained it clear enough.

This is what I think can and is happening. If someone has proof otherwise or knows something different, then please explain.

The registry can tell the registrar what to charge you.
The registrar can charge you that amount or any amount over that amount.

The registry can say to charge you $200, but the registrar needs their share so they charge you $300.

Once the price increase has gone into effect, you have to pay that increase. You can not pay the old price.
No notice at all has to be given to the registrant.

If you can prove that this isn't or can't happen, then please do.

 

[brindle123]

rules maybe are different with each registry, (as George Kirikos post was for .horse)

Yes, I believe that each extension there is a different agreement with ICANN.

I'm an idiot. I didn't notice that all of George Kirkikos comment were on Michael Berkens blog. I was thinking that he made posts somewhere other than the blog. I was even looking for them on this forum. Sorry to Joe and everyone else for my confusion.

 

[bluebox]

The whole nGTLD "experiment" is such a (unregulated) clusterfuck.
But are we even surprised? - blind greed always trumps reason (and the little guys always gets scr**ed because they can't really do anything about it)

 

[eenmakkie]

This is as much as I understand right now.

I can renew any domain I own for up to 10yrs at the current renewal price. Once that price has gone up, I will have to pay that new price. There is no going back to renew at old price.

Example #2: XXXX.villas is $20 to renew. The renewal price went up yesterday for just XXXX.villas domain not just all .villas domains, but they could have gone up also. So the new renewal price for just the XXXX.villas is now $200. This is what the registry is now telling the registrar to charge for XXXX.villas domain. Other .villas could be higher or could be lower than XXXX.villas To register any new .villas is only $25, but renewal for XXXX.villas is now $200. I can not go into my account and renew it at the old $20 price or the $25. Since the registry is telling the registrar what to charge me, I have to now pay the $200.

I hope you could follow those examples and I explained it clear enough.

This is what I think can and is happening. If someone has proof otherwise or knows something different, then please explain.

The registry can tell the registrar what to charge you.
The registrar can charge you that amount or any amount over that amount.

The registry can say to charge you $200, but the registrar needs their share so they charge you $300.

Once the price increase has gone into effect, you have to pay that increase. You can not pay the old price.
No notice at all has to be given to the registrant.

If you can prove that this isn't or can't happen, then please do.

Yes, that is what I understand also. Donut says it is not there "normal practice of doing business" but we have no guarantee that it won't happen in the future.
So now the registrars should step up and defend there clients by informing them of an upcoming price increase and give them that opportunity to renew at the current price for 10 years.
My native language is not English, so I could not completely understand Joe Styler answer on that. Maybe you could study his answer above and let us know.

Best would be if @Joe Styler himself would explain if Godaddy would inform us (registrants) about the same, with a clear written language so also not native English can understand it.

expl. of a clear text "yes we (registrar Godaddy will inform all our clients (registrants) about an upcoming renewal price hike 6 months later for any of there specific domains they hold with the start date . (not if it is a general price hike for the whole extension GTLD) and give the registrants the opportunity to renew at current price for the next 10 years."

Ofcourse they can not let us renew at the old price, but if the registrar informs us 6 months upfront, the "old price" is still the current price and then there is no legal problem of offering it for 10 years renewal.

It all comes to informing the client (registrant) upfront or not.
If no upfront notice is received, then yes there is a legal problem offering it to the client at the "old price" as that price is not available any more.

We (included me) where all speaking about the "old price" but that is the wrong legal term to use.

If the expl. domain of @brindle123 XXXX.villas (actually a cool domain if it was only 3 xxx can be sold good) will have a price increase of current 69.99$ to 200$ starting at 1-sept-2016 (so 6 months later) and the registrar (Godaddy or others) would inform the registrant NOW or within the next 7 days that his/her domain will have a substantial price increase to 200$ starting at 1-sept-2016, but the registrant has still the option to renew that domain at CURRENT price of 69.99$ for the next 10 year if they wish to.

Then all should be ok, and we can close this threat.

It all comes to informing or let the registrant find it out them self.
But they can't, as as far I know, there is now way to check what a price renewal will do 6 months later.
Other then each registrant sent an formal letter to there registries asking if there domains have an upcoming price hike within the next 6 months. And repeating that each 4 months to give you self at least 2 months the time to renew at current prices.

For meself: I hope Godaddy as my largest registrar can give me that security with a clear written declaration or link to a text where that is written, that they will inform me 6 months in advance of any price hike related to my specific domains.

 

[brindle123]

The registry has to give Godaddy and all registrars notice of any price increase. Why that fails to get to the registrants is unclear.

I have seen renewal price increase weekly sometimes.

This is all just geared towards taking money out of your pocket and putting it into the business's pocket.

ICANN should be and is supposed to be the entity regulating this shit, but again they are getting money and input from the registries and registrars. Domain owners have very little say in the policy making process, especially when it is concerned with the agreements between ICANN and the registry/registrar.

Everyone should send a complaint to ICANN anytime you hear of someone being wronged, not just when you are wronged, because the next time it could be you.

 

[eenmakkie]

IDomain owners have very little say in the policy making process, especially when it is concerned with the agreements between ICANN and the registry/registrar.

I am not sure if the technical term domain "owners" can be used. And the fee we pay are much more as only the maintenance costs.
I guess it is more domain "lease holders" that comes closer. As long as you pay the rent, you hold the lease and can sell the lease to an other. Where the owner of the domain "the registry" after expiration of the lease can ask a new lease price to the next leaseholder.
When nobody pays the rent, the owner will get back his possession.

.com probably the terms are different there, but Verisign likes to take there part of the newGTLDs renewal prices and has increases there renewals substantially.

Now it comes: if a .com is not renewed, I don't think it will become back full possession of Verisign .
The domain will be back available for anybody to register at the normal then current registration fees.

with the newGTLDs, that is not the case as the registry can withhold a new domain that was not renewed on time , they even can sell it later on auctions and increase the renewal rates substantially. So they are the real owners of those domains.
And we only the leaseholders.

Anybody? If I have it all wrong here, please let us know

 

[SiteMachine]

If anyone is interested in the app I built that will keep track of your new gtld domains and notify you if any of them get designated as premium as soon as the registrar knows feel free to PM me, I have it working in beta.

I am considering having the ability to add domains for free just without any guaranteed personal notifications, that way if a lot of names start to go premium I can notify the community. Weekly or daily notifications will be a paid service.

 

[wwwweb]

Here is an example of a domain going the other way, when Car.Loans was being released it had a $1,000 annual premium renewal, it is a killer term. Today is has a renewal of $89, there are thousands of worse terms that have $100-$250 renewal, how did this one get scaled back?

 

[Joe Styler]

OK so here is what happened. There was a technical error and it is being addressed. For it to have happened you needed to push a domain or receive a pushed name from one account to another in a group of names, if that group was mixed premium/non premium renewal something broke and caused the gaining account to think the renewals for all domains in that group were premium.
This is fixed in most tlds, but there are a few being cleaned up still, likely the reason the .red etc names are showing up higher still but will be fixed shortly.
As I stated above we do audit things routinely and this was apparently already caught in an audit and anyone who paid more than they should have are already being refunded proactively by us for the difference. This was happening already without my intervention.
We had some meetings as a result of this thread which should help increase the customer service level on any pricing issues with the gtlds so that calling in and asking about it will get you the right answer the first time, that something is broken, not that there was some kind of increase by the registry.
So again I apologize for the error. I am glad you brought it to our attention. We work very hard to get things right the first time but if there are errors we do what we can to find out what happened, try and prevent them in the future, and make things right.

 

[SiteMachine]

Thanks @Joe Styler for clarifying. It is good to hear that goDaddy makes an effort to refund its mistakes (although it would be better for everyone and the collective reputations of the new gtlds if these overcharges never happened in the first place).

I have to be honest though I will still go out of my way to avoid goDaddy solely because they supported SOPA. Because of this I will never trust them, it might be worth bringing this up as well at the meetings so the PR team is aware of exactly how much damage this decision did to your brand (I know dozens of other developers who are also boycotting goDaddy permanently).

When goDaddy took the side of SOPA namecheap decided stand up for privacy rights online and come out against SOPA, because of this they have gotten all my domain registrations since and every time someone has asked me where to get a domain name (at least a weekly occurrence) I suggest namecheap, often citing SOPA as the main reason (although price certainly plays a role).

 

[Joe Styler]

While it is true that GoDaddy took the side of SOPA briefly, it was not all of us and the main person who decided that is no longer with the company and has not been with us for many years. We did change course from internal and external feedback. We have since had three CEO's and none of them have supported anything like that. The company has had some big changes and the leadership has been changed ( I think completely) since that time. The new leadership is more in line with what the company and the customers think as a whole and has made changes that reflect that in our brand, attitude, and advertising. I appreciate the feedback but know that there are not any SOPA supporters currently in leadership at GoDaddy.