debate Environmental Thread does anyone care that Amazon Rain Forest is burning down to the ground

[oldtimer]

This is a total catastrophe and failure for the World and humanity at large. There are some things that surpass national boundaries and borders like Human Rights and certain Environmental issues that affect the whole Globe which surely should be of concern to all of us. Whether it’s the Oceans and Rivers that have been polluted or whether it’s our air and soil that have been poisoned, it all has something to do with human activity like the Global Warming and the Melting of the Ice Caps and Glaciers which is going to put many coastal Cities and Communities under water soon. IMO

Everyone’s opinions are welcomed, but keep your comments constructive, professional, and on topic. Personal attacks and belittling of others are not tolerated.

 

[Cal2]

we still can't come up with a plan to manage this little Planet of ours so that there wouldn't be so much damage, destruction, and pain and suffering going on.

We have a plan, passed down to us - Do unto others as you'd have others do unto you; justice for all; ….. .

Problem is that plan doesn't suit well the ones making most of the current plans. : )

I really am interested to know how the Left Earth is going to look like and be managed in case I want to move there.

I've sometimes said I consider myself a Chironian, who happened to end up on the wrong planet.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/849484.Voyage_from_Yesteryear

 

[oldtimer]

I asked an honest question, but unfortunately my question wasn’t or couldn’t be answered because no one dares to tell the truth that is at the core of all of our problems, so I answer myself:

Ideally we'll have two Planets that are healthy, happy, and thriving regardless of who is running them, Left, Right, Middle or any other ideology or system no matter how different doesn’t matter, what matters is the end results. Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, Fascism, Fundamentalism and the many other competing “isms” that are out there are all man made and are of no consequence if they fail to save Humanity and this Planet from the doom. While people are busy fighting (verbally and literally) as to who’s system is better the Humanity and this Planet are sliding closer towards catastrophe. So as smart and intelligent as everyone claims to be the first thing that they need to do is to break away from all the different mindsets that have brought Humanity and this Planet to the point of destruction and extinction. The problem at the core of this issue is that no one regardless of their political affiliations or ideologies is willing to change their attitude in a way that can lead to a solution towards preventing the catastrophe that is ahead both for Humanity and this Planet. So everyone goes to the Summits and the different conferences and talks about the Environment and all the pain and suffering that people around the World are being subjected to and for a while they feel good thinking that just because they have talked about these problems that everything is going to be okay now, and so everyone goes back to their big mansions, private jets and yachts, and the many luxury cars that they own and forget that if they are not willing to make any meaningful changes in their lifestyles and mindsets that all that talk in the Summit is not going to do anyone any good.

So we really are at the point in history that is going to determine the destiny of Humanity and this Planet and so either we are willing and able to change our lifestyles and mindsets and adjust our attitudes so that we can work together to save ourselves and our Planet or that we continue fooling ourselves thinking that we are right and everyone else is wrong and that we need to get them before they can get us and meanwhile Mother Nature is going to get all of us !

IMO

 

[Cal2]

So we really are at the point in history that is going to determine the destiny of Humanity and this Planet and so either we are willing and able to change our lifestyles and mindsets and adjust our attitudes so that we can work together to save ourselves and our Planet or that we continue fooling ourselves thinking that we are right and everyone else is wrong and that we need to get them before they can get us and meanwhile Mother Nature is going to get all of us !

My favourite saying when it comes to behaviour modification is 'Only pain and suffering will change most behaviour - so let the pain and suffering begin'. That's been the case time and time again. I'm thinking it's the more likely of scenarios in this case. How far that pain and suffering has to go before enough needed changes are made....

Humankind may not thrive as well in the future, but it should survive. Unless maybe AI does us in. &/or maybe something like a very big comet.

 

[Cal2]

For what it's worth:

Greta Thunberg was right: There is an alternative to 'eternal economic growth': Don Pittis
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/top...-growth-don-pittis/ar-AAHSbre?ocid=spartandhp

 

[oldtimer]

My favourite saying when it comes to behaviour modification is 'Only pain and suffering will change most behaviour - so let the pain and suffering begin'. That's been the case time and time again. I'm thinking it's the more likely of scenarios in this case. How far that pain and suffering has to go before enough needed changes are made....

Humankind may not thrive as well in the future, but it should survive. Unless maybe AI does us in. &/or maybe something like a very big comet.

You are forgetting about one important factor which is TIME.


Behavior modification as you describe happens very gradually and might take a lot of time that the World no longer has, and also if we are going to treat people as if they are animals in the zoo then what’s the point of having all these Summits and Conferences. A better way is to appeal to everyone's sense of logic and intelligence so that they themselves can arrive at the conclusion that the only way out of this mess is through having a new mindset that allows positive and constructive cooperation between all the different political affiliations and parties. IMO

 

[Cal2]

You are forgetting about one important factor which is TIME.

Behavior modification as you describe happens very gradually and might take a lot of time that the World no longer has, and also if we are going to treat people as if they are animals in the zoo then what’s the point of having all these Summits and Conferences. A better way is to appeal to everyone's sense of logic and intelligence so that they themselves can arrive at the conclusion that the only way out of this mess is through having a new mindset that allows positive and constructive cooperation between all the different political affiliations and parties. IMO

Behaviour modification can happen fast, depending on the type and severity of the pain and suffering - eg. toddler burning hand on stove likely won't touch it again, or someone who smokes and can't quit, is able to quit the day after they have a heart attack. Same with animals.

I'll watch for logic appealing to intelligence that is working to turn this climate crisis thing. I'm thinking there'll be some 'emotional pain and suffering threats' thrown in, as well, like Greta did in her speeches. In the end, that could be what mostly motivates most of those you bring up. But we'll see.​

 

[oldtimer]

Behaviour modification can happen fast, depending on the type and severity of the pain and suffering - eg. toddler burning hand on stove likely won't touch it again, or someone who smokes and can't quit, is able to quit the day after they have a heart attack. Same with animals.

I'll watch for logic appealing to intelligence that is working to turn this climate crisis thing. I'm thinking there'll be some 'emotional pain and suffering threats' thrown in, as well, like Greta did in her speeches. In the end, that could be what mostly motivates most of those you bring up. But we'll see.​

Unfortunately the Elites are insulated against any pain and suffering that you can inflict on them, the only pain and suffering that they might be able to understand is going to be when we have a total Social and Environmental collapse and by then it's not going to make any difference anymore. At this time the only way out is to convince everyone that it is in their own best interest to change the lifestyles and mindsets that have brought Humanity and this Planet to the point of extinction. So perhaps you need to change your mindset too of even considering inflicting pain and suffering on others as an option. Even with animals positive reinforcement and encouragement along with compassionate and humane treatment, control, and containment have produced better results than the methods used in the past, anyway you want to be part of the solution not part of the problem, don't you.

By the way you and JB never said how things are going to be on the Left Earth.

 

[JB Lions]

By the way you and JB never said how things are going to be on the Left Earth.

Nice.

I think sometimes you're just not being a realist on the subject, with this:

"So we really are at the point in history that is going to determine the destiny of Humanity and this Planet and so either we are willing and able to change our lifestyles and mindsets and adjust our attitudes so that we can work together to save ourselves and our Planet or that we continue fooling ourselves thinking that we are right and everyone else is wrong and that we need to get them before they can get us and meanwhile Mother Nature is going to get all of us !"

How do you work with an anti-science denier? You saw the post I made about Trump. All the stuff he's said and done. You can't work with somebody like that, his master is the fossil fuel companies. Real change will be on the governmental level. First step is to vote people like that out, not put them in positions of power in the first place. Intellectual lazy types. Science seems to be a real dirty word under the Republican Party.

 

[oldtimer]

Nice.

I think sometimes you're just not being a realist on the subject, with this:

"So we really are at the point in history that is going to determine the destiny of Humanity and this Planet and so either we are willing and able to change our lifestyles and mindsets and adjust our attitudes so that we can work together to save ourselves and our Planet or that we continue fooling ourselves thinking that we are right and everyone else is wrong and that we need to get them before they can get us and meanwhile Mother Nature is going to get all of us !"

How do you work with an anti-science denier? You saw the post I made about Trump. All the stuff he's said and done. You can't work with somebody like that, his master is the fossil fuel companies. Real change will be on the governmental level. First step is to vote people like that out, not put them in positions of power in the first place. Intellectual lazy types. Science seems to be a real dirty word under the Republican Party.

I am preaching to all sides,

At the end there is no escaping the problems that Humanity and this Planet are facing. Perhaps this is a test by Mother Nature to see if Humans are worth keeping before we are allowed to expand our presence to other Planets.

 

[JB Lions]

I am preaching to all sides,

At the end there is no escaping the problems that Humanity and this Planet are facing. Perhaps this is a test by Mother Nature to see if Humans are worth keeping before we are allowed to expand our presence to other Planets.

If 1 side is listening to the money, they're not really going to care about your preaching. Everything I posted earlier is true:

Trump drops by United Nations climate summit

"the president listened intently for about 10 minutes before departing for his religious freedom event."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/un-cli...-at-start-of-united-nations-general-assembly/

---------------------
Donald Trump's story on skipping the G7 climate meeting makes no sense

"The President had scheduled meetings and bilaterals with Germany and India, so a senior member of the Administration attended in his stead," press secretary Stephanie Grisham said by way of explanation for Trump's absence..............

"As CNN's Jim Sciutto pointed out, both German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi were in the climate change meeting."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/26/politics/donald-trump-g7-climate-change/index.html

Skipped the meeting entirely, sits in for 10 minutes, for the reason I gave. His master are the fossil fuel companies. He has no interest in doing anything positive for the environment. Jobs at all cost. You're not going to flip him.

So the question I pose to you, how do you get past that, work with people like that. You can't, you have to remove them, they're in the way of any progress.

 

[oldtimer]

@JB Lions , and @GILSAN

Its easy to criticize and attack the other side, as the matter of fact you probably get a pat on the shoulder for it. But it takes courage to hold your own side to account for their faults and shortcomings, and until you are willing to do that nothing is going to change. IMO

 

[GILSAN]

@JB Lions , and @GILSAN

Its easy to criticize and attack the other side, as the matter of fact you probably get a pat on the shoulder for it. But it takes courage to hold your own side to account for their faults and shortcomings, and until you are willing to do that nothing is going to change. IMO

I don't now what you're talking about when you mention my side or try to associate me to JB.

Perhaps it may make more sense to you if I tell you that JB Lions is the only person in this forum that's in my IGNORE list... for many years now... therefore anything he posts, I'm unable to see and quite frankly, don't care to see or even give a damn about his opinion!

 

[J Sokol]

Everyone’s opinions are welcomed, but keep your comments constructive, professional, and on topic. Personal attacks and belittling of others are not tolerated.

Just a reminder ...

 

[JB Lions]

@JB Lions , and @GILSAN

Its easy to criticize and attack the other side, as the matter of fact you probably get a pat on the shoulder for it. But it takes courage to hold your own side to account for their faults and shortcomings, and until you are willing to do that nothing is going to change. IMO

It is easy because it's true. I can't take your posts seriously because the parties aren't the same. If I said environmental friendly party, nobody is going to say Republicans. Your posts come off as kind of la la land stuff, let's just hold hands and make the planet a better place.

You haven't touched my question, how can you work with somebody like Trump.

One party puts in stricter standards, the other removes them. One passes environmental protections, one strips them. They're just not the same. If there is an issue or problem and you want to work on it, the foundation needs to be truth, reality.

I don't now what you're talking about when you mention my side or try to associate me to JB.

Perhaps it may make more sense to you if I tell you that JB Lions is the only person in this forum that's in my IGNORE list... for many years now... therefore anything he posts, I'm unable to see and quite frankly, don't care to see or even give a damn about his opinion!

That's because he didn't like his nonsense being taken apart. This is a racist who thinks it's ok to attack a woman based on how she's dressed. That and all his anti-gay stuff he posts. In the other thread he actually posted, where are all the liberals at, are you scared of me. Coming from a guy that folded and blocks people that make him look foolish. You noticed the false post he made earlier about Arnold and the SUV he drives. He'll make more.

 

[oldtimer]

Your posts come off as kind of la la land stuff, let's just hold hands and make the planet a better place.

You haven't touched my question, how can you work with somebody like Trump.

Perhaps you can't, but when I asked you a serious question as to how the Left Earth that is going to be under your complete control going to look like your only answer was : Nice

I am not trying to twist your arm for an answer, but I sincerely am interested to know if there is going to be any limit as far as how much each person can consume.

 

[JB Lions]

Perhaps you can't, but when I asked you a serious question as to how the Left Earth that is going to be under your complete control going to look like your only answer was : Nice

That was my answer. You skipped every question I've asked of you, but want me to answer questions. How do people who care about the environment, work with those that don't, are uneducated on the environment, owned by fossil fuel companies? The answer you can't, you remove them.

 

[oldtimer]

That was my answer. You skipped every question I've asked of you, but want me to answer questions. How do people who care about the environment, work with those that don't, are uneducated on the environment, owned by fossil fuel companies? The answer you can't, you remove them.

So I'll answer your question again:

Perhaps you can't work with those people and I can understand why.

So now if you wish you can answer my question, as I already said there is no pressure to answer, but I honestly and sincerely like to know what steps you would take if you had complete control over the Planet. Do you put any limit on the size of carbon foot print that each person is going to have by limiting how much they can consume or own. (you don't have to rush with your response, I rather if you took a little time to come up with a more thoughtful answer).

 

[Cal2]

Unfortunately the Elites are insulated against any pain and suffering that you can inflict on them, the only pain and suffering that they might be able to understand is going to be when we have a total Social and Environmental collapse and by then it's not going to make any difference anymore. At this time the only way out is to convince everyone that it is in their own best interest to change the lifestyles and mindsets that have brought Humanity and this Planet to the point of extinction. So perhaps you need to change your mindset too of even considering inflicting pain and suffering on others as an option. Even with animals positive reinforcement and encouragement along with compassionate and humane treatment, control, and containment have produced better results than the methods used in the past, anyway you want to be part of the solution not part of the problem, don't you.

By the way you and JB never said how things are going to be on the Left Earth.

I'm not considering inflicting pain and suffering. That's not my thing, and I don't like to see it. But people will do that to themselves, to others, or threaten others with it, especially as they get more desperate, angry. Those threats could be mental, as well as physical - eg. 'You'll be seen as evil if you don't do x'.

Another angle: Emotional carrots on a stick. I was once talking with a gov't official on an issue, and I could see his eyes were glazing over. Then I mentioned that doing 'x' could make him look good. The glaze went out of his eyes and I had his attention back again. People shouldn't have to be 'bribed' like that to do their job, but sometimes that's about the only 'logic' they seem to understand and are motivated by.

Takes me back to a favourite saying: Institutions that were established to serve, over time become self serving.

 

[oldtimer]

2019 Climate Action Summit

Closing Report: (pdf)


https://www.un.org/en/climatechange/assets/pdf/CAS_closing_release.pdf

 

[oldtimer]

From the many possible outcomes that might be predicted for the future two possible scenarios might stand out:

First Scenario: The 1 billion or so Elites around the World will collectively come up with a plan to eliminate all the peasants (the poor and the middle class) and replace them with AI so that it can tend to all their needs. The drastic reduction in population will make it possible for the Elites to be able to continue to indulge themselves in all the luxuries and excesses of life as the planet will have an easier time coping with the much less demand on the environment due to the much lower population levels.

Second Scenario: The Peasants (the poor and the middle class) will become so frustrated that they will revolt and take over the World, they make it mandatory for everyone (specially for the Elites) to reduce their carbon footprint by adhering to a very simple and modest lifestyle that is free from waste and excessive consumption. No one is killed but the population growth will be kept under control by educating the people and by creating awareness about each person’s responsibilities towards keeping the Planet healthy and safe and by requiring them to respect each other's rights. With the help of good AI everyone will be able to live happily ever after and will be taught and encouraged to treat others and their home Planet with the respect and attention that they deserve.

So which future do you all want to be a part of.

 

[Cal2]

From the many possible outcomes that might be predicted for the future two possible scenarios might stand out:

First Scenario: The 1 billion or so Elites around the World will collectively come up with a plan to eliminate all the peasants (the poor and the middle class) and replace them with AI so that it can tend to all their needs. The drastic reduction in population will make it possible for the Elites to be able to continue to indulge themselves in all the luxuries and excesses of life as the planet will have an easier time coping with the much less demand on the environment due to the much lower population levels.

Second Scenario: The Peasants (the poor and the middle class) will become so frustrated that they will revolt and take over the World, they make it mandatory for everyone (specially for the Elites) to reduce their carbon footprint by adhering to a very simple and modest lifestyle that is free from waste and excessive consumption. No one is killed but the population growth will be kept under control by educating the people and by creating awareness about each person’s responsibilities towards keeping the Planet healthy and safe and by requiring them to respect each other's rights. With the help of good AI everyone will be able to live happily ever after and will be taught and encouraged to treat others and their home Planet with the respect and attention that they deserve.

So which future do you all want to be a part of.

I choose to remain more optimistic than those 2 options. Eg. Some latest Designing ways forward to deal with climate change:

https://newatlas.com/electronics/first-rechargeable-carbon-dioxide-battery/

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/topstories/why-engineers-in-alberta-think-theyve-found-a-way-for-the-oilsands-to-produce-clean-fuel/ar-AAI0Z2p?ocid=spartandhp

I don't see the Elite giving up their mansions and yachts anytime soon, and not without a fight. (Even my wife, when I asked her awhile ago if she'd prefer a house or a mansion, said mansion - so I registered 3Dmansion/s in .com, just in case it could be turned into a positive construction innovation project.) I've 4DMansion/s, 4DYacht/s, 4DJet/s in .com, for when 4D printing can help with things like climate damage from extravagant living - maybe even being able to make those things a positive as far as dealing with climate damage.
But that could use a different kind of thinking from the usual, traditional.​

 

[oldtimer]

I don't see the Elite giving up their mansions and yachts anytime soon, and not without a fight. (Even my wife, when I asked her awhile ago if she'd prefer a house or a mansion, said mansion - so I registered 3Dmansion/s in .com, just in case it could be turned into a positive construction innovation project.) I've 4DMansion/s, 4DYacht/s, 4DJet/s in .com, for when 4D printing can help with things like climate damage from extravagant living - maybe even being able to make those things a positive as far as dealing with climate damage.
But that could use a different kind of thinking from the usual, traditional.​

I recently saw a documentary on PBS channel that showed a millionaire who had built a 500 thousand dollar mansion for his dog complete with a swimming pool, a very large training area, and a lounge. The mindset and the system that has made such things possible has to be reformed if there is going to be any chances to save the Planet (and the Humanity). If people keep on creating a large carbon foot print through their lifestyles and habits, then what’s the use to even talk about the Environment. Yes the future can be very grim if people are not willing to change.

I am sure that the dog will be perfectly happy with a regular doghouse and his owner should be content with having a normal size environmentally friendly and green home that does not tax this Planet's resources and wellbeing. IMO


PS: As far as visiting your planet, I rather stay put where I am because I am afraid of Earthquakes.

 

[Cal2]

PS: As far as visiting your planet, I rather stay put where I am because I am afraid of Earthquakes.

Never been in an earthquake, but wouldn't want to, either - natural or man caused.

For a fun design project sometime in the future (with some potential resulting ideas that could be harvested and maybe used here), I've PrintaPlanet in .com, which will likely make use of such as 3D and 4D printed metamaterials, in ways that such as earthquakes aren't possible, or improbable.

 

[oldtimer]

For a fun design project sometime in the future (with some potential resulting ideas that could be harvested and maybe used here), I've PrintaPlanet in .com, which will likely make use of such as 3D and 4D printed metamaterials, in ways that such as earthquakes aren't possible, or improbable.

I have PrintableHouses.com ,

We have the technology to do a lot of good, but first we have to overcome all the animosities and hostilities that are taking the World in the wrong direction and are distracting us from the real issues that need our attention, and next we have to come up with the will and the courage to make the necessary changes in our lifestyles and habits before it's too late (and when I say we I mean Humanity as a whole). IMO

 

[Cal2]

For what it's worth:

"Climate change is a marketing problem. ……… . That’s because humans make choices. If we live in a culture where people are free to choose, we’ve offered control over our future to others. When humans make choices–that’s marketing. …….. . If you want to change things, it helps to understand how humans make choices."
https://seths.blog/2019/09/you-might-have-a-marketing-problem/

Conflicts: A Better Way to Resolve Them
https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/111/1115939/conflicts/9781785041891.html