auctions Whiskey.com [was] at $2,000,000 on Flippa [fake bid removed]

[JudgeMind]

Whiskey.com

Auction on Flippa currently has 10bids and is at $2,000,000

 

[ImageAuthors]

@KCGroup,

By the way, Ali, I'm not criticizing you. I'm just taking an X-Ray to Flippa to see what's broken.

To show there's no ill will and to show I mean what I said about Flippa being mainly a catered listing / brokerage service, I'll take you up on that previous offer you made me.

Earlier you wanted to list my domains on Flippa. And I said that if I did that, then it would mean that I'd given up on Flippa as a seller myself. Well, I have. I have given up.

Since 100% of your listings sell, how about a 7-day fire sale listing. I'd like $10k - $20k, please.

If you're game, then I'll keep throwing domains on the pile until the bids equal the money we want.

Think you can squeeze $10k out of a few hundred domains I can give you?

 

[DomainVP]

Flippa is good for two things... finding buyers for highly premium names that could generate a high six figure sale on their own through any other sales portal on any given day, and for throwing away great names for pennies.

Won't use it, don't use it, and will never use it again.

Need to find a buyer without paying 30%... use Google... it's free.

 

[The Group]

@ImageAuthors

For one, for you to assume that all I do is get “15% just for creating listings, which is exorbitant and unearned, in my opinion” or “Not because of any special outreach they're doing.” is rather assumptive and quite ridiculous in its own right.

Especially when domains that have been up for sale on Flippa, with exclusive coverage giving the seller’s the same exact exposure (as they do for me when I post an exclusive domain) have never even received 30% of the offer amount that I ended up selling the domain for. Is that because I post a listing, sit on my hands and pray? That would make me the luckiest guy in the world.

There are numerous domains that I have brokered very successfully for other Super Sellers with what you claim to be “front of the line privileges” who couldn’t attain nearly the same price for their domains that I have. Domains that reached only $800 in bidding in someone else’s hands that I was able to sell for $3,500. Domains that never surpassed $1k that I sold for $5k…. I get emailed daily by other Flippa sellers who ask me to broker their domains.

I spend countless hours crafting targeted emails to C-level executives; I get on the phone and make a direct call to the decision makers; I spend hours negotiating prices with end users and resellers alike… I could keep going.

I also find it funny, because you yourself have purchased domains from me OFF OF the Flippa platform…so clearly I don’t just post domains and hope for the best. I reach out.

There is a reason for my followers and my success. They didn’t just magically get handed to me. I busted ass, I studied the business, the market, I understand the strengths and weaknesses of the platforms and I use them to increase my sales. I see what kind of domains sell for the prices they sell for on Flippa and I use my attributes to attain those types of names.

Take a look at my AppDesignSchool.com auction…I took $500 worth of domains, invested another $400 in ultra premium Flippa upgrades and sold the lot for $7,500 in less than 30 days. With NO special privileges or help from Flippa…I just used the upgrades, timed my listings properly, did my usual targeted outbound and sold the name…just like I do with EVERY auction.

Feel free to ask other Flippa Super Sellers with more exposure than me who have trusted me to sell their domains…which I have…for MUCH more than they ever received offers for.

We’ve had conversations off platform where you have very openly displayed your frustrations with Flippa…you have told me that you feel ripped off by having to upgrade to gain exposure…well, feel that way…but I’m living proof that you can make great money on Flippa if you actually use the platform the way it was meant to be used.

Your comment “from time to time it still sells if you're lucky enough to be seen through the shill bids and special 'brokers' with front-of-the-line privileges” is quite bitter. You have had limited success on Flippa so you blame the platform, management, the listing fees and everyone outside of yourself. Strangely, I have worked my way up to a Flippa Super Seller for a reason: hard work. I earned every single listing watcher, just as I earned every single amount of feedback.

 

[mad409]

Off of Flippa and back to the name. Whiskey.com is a great .com name but mark my words, times are changing and with all the new extensions pricing for .com only has one direction and it's down.

This auction backs me up IMO.

I'm sure many, like myself have a Whisky, or Whiskey dot extension that would produce the same results rather than paying over a million for this one and the reserve was at 2 million.

I predict this one will not sell in today's market for what they want, too many new options in a changing market.

 

[FPForum]

Just a heads up..The domain expires in 7hrs, but the auction still has another 10 days

Best of luck with your sale!

 

[The Group]

Off of Flippa and back to the name. Whiskey.com is a great .com name but mark my words, times are changing and with all the new extensions pricing for .com only has one direction and it's down.

This auction backs me up IMO.

I'm sure many, like myself have a Whisky, or Whiskey dot extension that would produce the same results rather than paying over a million for this one and the reserve was at 2 million.

I predict this one will not sell in today's market for what they want, too many new options in a changing market.

That's like saying The Beatles are no longer legendary because of all the Justin Beibers and Miley Cyrus' in the music industry.

 

[DomainVP]

Off of Flippa and back to the name. Whiskey.com is a great .com name but mark my words, times are changing and with all the new extensions pricing for .com only has one direction and it's down.

This auction backs me up IMO.

I'm sure many, like myself have a Whisky, or Whiskey dot extension that would produce the same results rather than paying over a million for this one and the reserve was at 2 million.

I predict this one will not sell in today's market for what they want, too many new options in a changing market.

Is it meth or crack? It's got to be one of those...

 

[mad409]

Is it meth or crack? It's got to be one of those...

Honestly if you only have insults to post and NO intelligent response you should stop trolling me. If your site/company was hidden I could see these types of responses from you but it's clear who you are and it could hurt your company reputation if continued.

Anyone that thinks new available extensions won't deflate the value of .com, .net, .org etc. is closed minded and invested too much in .com.

 

[mad409]

That's like saying The Beatles are no longer legendary because of all the Justin Beibers and Miley Cyrus' in the music industry.

Foot inserted in mouth, TY. Beatles are great but not the future and Bieber and Cyrus are making the cash!

That's Bieber BTY.

PS - I'm also not clear why you, being a professional broker for Whiskey.com would LIKES DomainVP for calling me a crack head for NO reason?

 

[ImageAuthors]

That's quite the rant, Ali.

so you blame the platform, management, the listing fees and everyone outside of yourself.

What am I blaming anybody for? I wasn't even talking about myself.

I also find it funny, because you yourself have purchased domains from me OFF OF the Flippa platform…so clearly I don’t just post domains and hope for the best. I reach out.

It's hilariously cute that you consider replying to my wanted ad on DNF evidence of end user outreach! That's the only occasion when I bought something from you. You were in line just like every other domainer. Nothing special.

You have had limited success on Flippa

For the record, Flippa: $5.2k, $4.5k, and $1k sales are better than most. No gimmicks or "bonus" domains. Unless i'm mistaken, you hadn't seen much sales up until that point in time. I have no complaints about my "limited success". Flippa treated me fairly. More success would have been nice, but that has nothing to do with my criticism of the Flippa platform.

Why turn this into some juvenile contest?

There's no ill will on my side, and (frankly) no comparison between what the 2 of us are doing. You are selling stuff owned by other people, and I have a rule that I don't broker for sellers. I was selling my own stuff, had a fair amount of success, kept going a good long while after Flippa proved less and less effective, and then stopped altogether once you showed up saying that if I really wanted to sell then I needed to go through you!

I spend countless hours crafting targeted emails to C-level executives

Like messaging me on Skype to ask if I knew anybody who'd buy OahuResorts.com from you? When YOU yourself live in Hawaii!?!? I'm not a C-level executive at a Hawaiian resort, Ali. Those people are your neighbors, for God's sake.

We’ve had conversations off platform where you have very openly displayed your frustrations with Flippa…you have told me that you feel ripped off by having to upgrade to gain exposure…

Ali, since you claim I said something I didn't, it's only fair that I refute you by posting that conversation unedited. Sorry, dude, but you opened the door to it. I've highlighted some of the juicy bits:



[10/2/14 4:11:07 PM]
Ali Zandi: Hmmm

[10/2/14 4:11:20 PM]
Ali Zandi: I get a lot of exposure through the ultra premium listings

[10/2/14 4:11:27 PM]
Ali Zandi: Plus the 134 watchers on my account

[10/2/14 4:11:43 PM]
Ali Zandi: Kevin, the domain manager at Flippa also helps out a lot with extra exposure

[10/2/14 4:12:02 PM]
Ali Zandi: If you have a couple good names you want to maximize profits on, I can run them for you.

[10/2/14 4:12:19 PM]
Ali Zandi: No risk, set your reserve where you'd like and I write the descriptions, work my magic and get them sold for you.

[10/2/14 4:12:27 PM]
Joseph Peterson: I'm open to the idea.

[10/2/14 4:12:33 PM]
Joseph Peterson: Kevin and I talk off and on.

[10/2/14 4:12:41 PM]
Ali Zandi: I speak with him almost daily.

[10/2/14 4:12:46 PM]
Joseph Peterson: Recently, he asked for a list of domains to feature.

[10/2/14 4:12:56 PM]
Joseph Peterson: I've got Developed.net up and running.

[10/2/14 4:13:04 PM]
Joseph Peterson: I expect bidding to stall somewhere very low.

[10/2/14 4:13:32 PM]
Ali Zandi: The descriptions have a lot to do with it

[10/2/14 4:13:36 PM]
Joseph Peterson: Once upon a time, I used to get consistent 4-figure sales on Flippa.

[10/2/14 4:13:47 PM]
Joseph Peterson: But since Flippa changed a few months back

[10/2/14 4:13:51 PM]
Joseph Peterson: it has been a ghost town.

[10/2/14 4:14:01 PM]
Joseph Peterson: My descriptions haven't changed.

[10/2/14 4:14:11 PM]
Ali Zandi: Maybe the buyers have

[10/2/14 4:14:17 PM]
Joseph Peterson: Could be.

[10/2/14 4:14:30 PM]
Joseph Peterson: It's difficult to get attention for auction listings on Flippa, actually,

[10/2/14 4:14:40 PM]
Joseph Peterson: because a few auctions and a few sellers tend to dominate the platform.

[10/2/14 4:14:56 PM]
Joseph Peterson: There is much more supply than demand now.

[10/2/14 4:15:15 PM]
Ali Zandi: Supply and demand never stopped anyone from wanting something.

[10/2/14 4:15:22 PM]
Ali Zandi: I know how to make them want it.

[10/2/14 4:15:26 PM]
Joseph Peterson: But it stops them from seeing it.

[10/2/14 4:15:35 PM]
Joseph Peterson: Like I said, I'm open to the idea.

[10/2/14 4:15:44 PM]
Ali Zandi: Worth a shot.

[10/2/14 4:15:56 PM]
Ali Zandi: What's your best domain?

[10/2/14 4:16:04 PM]
Joseph Peterson: I don't give my best domains to brokers.

[10/2/14 4:16:16 PM]
Ali Zandi: Whats the best broker domain?

[10/2/14 4:16:31 PM]
Joseph Peterson: Well, Flippa is it's own beast.

[10/2/14 4:16:49 PM]
Joseph Peterson: Only a narrow range of stuff seems to sell there

[10/2/14 4:16:52 PM]
Joseph Peterson: for me anyway.

[10/2/14 4:17:13 PM]
Joseph Peterson: I could list high quality domains on Flippa and bids wouldn't break $100.

[10/2/14 4:17:29 PM]
Joseph Peterson: So I'd have to look for domains Flippa buyers can wrap their heads around

[10/2/14 4:17:32 PM]
Ali Zandi: Strange, I can list mediocre names and sell them for $2k

[10/2/14 4:18:00 PM]
Joseph Peterson: We're not seeing the same Flippa at all.

[10/2/14 4:18:07 PM]
Ali Zandi: Haha, I guess not!

[10/2/14 4:18:24 PM]
Joseph Peterson: No offense. But your domains are selling mostly for more than they're worth.

[10/2/14 4:18:33 PM]
Ali Zandi: Way more than they're worth


Enjoy the fallout.

 

[DomainVP]

Honestly if you only have insults to post and NO intelligent response you should stop trolling me. If your site/company was hidden I could see these types of responses from you but it's clear who you are and it could hurt your company reputation if continued.

It's not even an intelligent discussion that warrants any intelligent response. I think you've read them all from just about everyone. It's just not worth my time or the time of anyone else to respond at length.

People have stopped talking about this almost entirely, haven't you noticed?

If my 'reputation' is that I view your types of gTLD 'prophecies' as an abomination; then I stand by that from the highest mountain.

Anyone that thinks new available extensions won't deflate the value of .com, .net, .org etc. is closed minded and invested too much in .com.

"Invested too much in .com," said no one... ever. This may have actually been the first time a human being put those words out into the world.

I'm not trying 'troll' you friend. I have a sense of humor, and enjoy colorful commentary. Sorry if you found that offensive.

 

[mad409]

It's not even an intelligent discussion that warrants any intelligent response.

They why respond again? Calling me a crack head, meth head etc. isn't cool! Being liked by the seller of Whiskey.com isn't cool either as he doesn't know me.

You have your opinions, I have mine, move on and stop trolling. TY...

 

[DomainVP]

times are changing and with all the new extensions pricing for .com only has one direction and it's down.

You need a thicker skin. If you can't handle an opinion then I don't know what to tell you.
End of discussion.

 

[The Group]

@ImageAuthors

You know, I had this long winded response written up and decided it was just not worth it.

That being said...
You can say all you want to, but the bottom line is that I make sales happen on Flippa and YOU DON'T.
End of story.

P.s- Not sure why you have so much time on your hands Joseph, but you should consider using the time to go make some sales so you aren't so wound up and bitter.

Peace.

 

[mad409]

You need a thicker skin. If you can't handle an opinion then I don't know what to tell you.
End of discussion.

My skin is thick, that's why I'm not going to let you call me a crack & meth head for NO reason and I'm gonna call out Flippa's premium seller Ali for liking your post.

The end, great!

 

[mad409]

Dislikes: KCGroup

Good luck bud...

 

[ImageAuthors]

You know, I had this long winded response written up and decided it was just not worth it.

The more you've said, the worse you've seemed. So you're onto something there.

That being said...
You can say all you want to, but the bottom line is that I make sales happen on Flippa and YOU DON'T.
End of story.

P.s- Not sure why you have so much time on your hands Joseph, but you should consider using the time to go make some sales so you aren't so wound up and bitter.

Peace.

I spend my time programming, advising clients, and writing about the domain industry -- and very little of it even trying to make sales. Discussing the industry is what I've been doing here, Ali. Flippa is fair game for criticism, and you're part of Flippa.

What I'm attempting to do is take an objective look at how Flippa is trending away from individual sellers' success and towards a special class of subcontractors that it promotes most heavily.

It's childish that you're attempting to frame that as a pissing contest. Personally, I find you to be a bit of a shyster, since you knowingly have sold domains for more than you think they're worth to some naïve domainers. But, although I find that disreputable, it's pretty common in the domain industry. Anyway, you've since graduated to better domains.

My issue is with Flippa, and you're just the symptom.

 

[Demonoid]

Maybe it's time for people to take a step back. Some of the latest comments are not particularly constructive and quite frankly some of the comments are not doing any favours for the reputations of those posting.

 

[HeyNow]

@kevin,

I appreciate your taking the time to respond. However, I don't appreciate your attempt to divert attention away from my criticisms of Flippa as a venue and toward a discussion of my own track record with Flippa sales. I wasn't expressing any personal grievance at the decline in sell-through rate at Flippa. No, I was attempting to diagnose systemic problems with the Flippa platform without really referencing my own selling activities there. So when you do bring it up, that's just an irrelevant distraction. I won't even bother to dispute what you say about my Flippa sales because, honestly, who cares about me?

Kevin, you always tell me and the rest of domainers that we're obliged to document Flippa shill bidding and deliver you a report ... or else keep our mouths shut! Well, in reality, none of us have the time or interest to keep detailed records about fraud at Flippa. But most of us have seen it. Some of us can point to examples, but we have nothing to gain from pointing out something Flippa will only call a "bad apple" anyway.

Out of all of us, you're the person drawing a Flippa salary; so, in all fairness, documenting and publicly exposing shill bidding falls on your shoulders. It's not up to us to gather the evidence for Flippa for free.

Frankly, it's outright ridiculous that you ask us to police Flippa shill bidding when we cannot even identify the bidders! Flippa masks their identity, making it impossible for us to prove fraud in the majority of cases where fraud is most likely occurring.

Just because Flippa chooses to mask bidder identities doesn't mean that Flilppa can prevent the rest of us from inferring fraud EVEN when there's no specific hard evidence to draw upon. Flippa conceals that evidence behind bidder numbers. We're not fools, Kevin. Flippa is half invisible, but we trip over that invisible half every day.

When a Flippa "sale" is reported in some daily blog only to fall through without a payment or a transfer, who shows up to point out the fraud. Not Flippa, obviously. The seller and buyer won't because they are (presumably) in cahoots. Flippa could. But why incur the bad publicity? Show me where Flippa has visited the domain blogs with reported "sales" and been the first to announce them as fakes. Yet you do admit that Flippa has cracked down on fakes. Behind the scenes. That leaves the rest of us to speculate about how much fraud there was and how much fraud remains.

If Flippa wants its stance on shill bidding to be taken more seriously, then let Flippa expose the identity of bidders. Then the rest of us can keep tabs (to a limited and imperfect degree) on the shill bidding networks that most of us assume are contributing so many under-reserve bids on Flippa. There is no good faith in Flippa's claim that it wants domainers to report fraud when it hides nearly all potential evidence.

I am very confident that I can identify a large amount of shill bidding at Flippa if Flippa will give me access to data. Will you? Retroactively?

But let's set shill bidding aside. Kevin, you're a smart guy. Can you really not see how the playing field for sellers has become tilted in favor of a minority of users?

Flippa even changed its layout recently so that listings that haven't paid extra take up less visual space on the screen. That creates a very strong incentive to compensate. And the only logical means to do so are these 3:

(1) paying extra
(2) shill bidding
(3) giving up on listing your own stuff and handing it over to one of Flippa's special sellers

Kevin, you can't possibly tell me that you distribute free listing upgrades and newsletter placements equally across all Flippa customers. I myself have benefitted from some extra perks, and I'm not complaining. My understanding was that I was getting some bonuses on account of my own past sales at Flippa. It's a rewards system, and that's fine.

But here's the crucial thing, Kevin, that you seem to have fundamentally missed.

Flippa is moving away from a place for new individual sellers to sign up, list an item, and succeed in selling it... and toward a brokerage platform where older established Flippa users enjoy so much extra exposure through watchers and Flippa handouts that newer individual sellers would be FOOLISH to even try listing their own property for sale on their own.

Honestly why would they?

They'd have to pay for each upgrade, whereas a Flippa "broker" probably doesn't.

And they'd have no (or relatively few) "watchers" to begin with, whereas a Flippa "broker" will have accumulated all of the watchers due to all of the better domains from all of the real domain owners that have given up on selling on Flippa and given their property to a Flippa subcontractor.

No new seller who only sells what he himself owns can compete with a broker who has a head start in "watchers" and special access to Flippa perks.

Kevin, right now, every Flippa customer OUGHT to stop listing his own domains. You yourself have implied as much. And your Flippa brokers have stated as much explicitly. I have it in writing, but why blame them for making a buck? It's a Flippa problem that we can't make a buck without them -- or, at least, less easily than we could last year.

Kevin, this is where your logic leads. Ali NEVER fails to sell domains. Where in the real domain economy does a person have a 100% sell-through rate? I'm not insinuating anything. I'm simply pointing out that every rational domainer and every single Flippa customer OUGHT to stop listing his own stuff and give his entire inventory to KCGroup. Why would anybody even TRY to compete with that?

So it boils down to this:

1. Flippa rewards successful sellers with "watchers" and with free upgrades.
2. Brokers get "watchers" due to other people's domains.
3. Unsuccessful sellers can't get steady free upgrades.
4. New sellers can't get "watchers".
5. People who list their own stuff (as opposed to other people's stuff) can't accumulate "watchers" as fast, since they'd actually have to BUY the premium domains.
6. Unsuccessful sellers must buy upgrades to compensate for lack of "watchers" and freebies.

Those are the underlying dynamics. It's pretty much inevitable, under those circumstances, that Flippa will gradually become a brokerage platform and cease to be a venue for new arrivals or individual sellers of privately owned assets.

It's also inevitable that there will be more shill bidding on Flippa than on other platforms due to the way auctions are ranked (i.e. by most active) and due to the steep fees sellers face, which incentivize shortcuts.

You see, Kevin, I'm rational too. I know that I couldn't sell the same domains I sold on Flippa in the past -- not today. When one of Flippa's special sellers tells me that I should give him 15% to 25% so that he can list the same domains I'd just listed at Flippa ... in the same price range I listed them at ... just because he talks to Kevin Fink daily and has X many watchers ... then I know Flippa is dead for me as an individual seller.

Rationally, it only makes sense to sell my stuff through one of Flippa's brokers. Some of them bring audiences of their own -- for instance, NameConnect. And others just bring front-of-the-line privileges. Either way, I know Flippa will give them more exposure than I can get. And that has nothing to do with marketing outside Flippa. It's about the way Flippa intrinsically works -- meaning free upgrades and accumulated "watcher" notifications.

Goodbye to the Flippa where anybody with something good to sell has a fair shake at selling it! That guy might still sell it. But he'll have a much easier time selling it once he recognizes that Flippa gives advantages to "brokers" and disadvantages to individual sellers.

Thank you for taking your unpaid yet valuable time to write this spot-on post. Flippa's mouthpiece here reminds me of that fool Moniker used to trot out when the natives in domain forum land became restless about the shenanigans Moniker was pulling. That fool left Moniker after spewing similar crap Flippa's mouthpiece seems to be spewing here now. Something to the effect of, or similar to, "You're all imagining things, nothing to see here! We pride ourselves on superior customer service and whatever problems you clueless domainers are having are anomalies and will be taken care of, I promise!"

 

[biggie]

never used flipo, but good to hear what regular users have to say.

 

[DU]

As I mentioned before Whiskey.com is still for sale on Sedo.

So should I

Take it special brokers/sellers for Flippa are not bound to the terms and conditions?

I would have thought a broker who is busting his ass and uses Flippa exclusively might have had that listing removed by now to comply with the basic terms of his favorite platform without needing to be given an incentive.

Certain rules aren't considered important enough to enforced?

I would have thought Kevin would have that removed - I already pointed it out once before - or maybe we don't care about all the rules? If you don't care about that condition why should we believe that you care about any other condition? This is a "golden" rule. Maybe you rules on shill bidding don't really get enforced either - it's hard to say. I don't suppose you are independently audited are you? Like an auctioneer would be.. oh wait, you're just a platform. My bad.

 

[HeyNow]

As I mentioned before Whiskey.com is still for sale on Sedo.

So should I

Take it special brokers/sellers for Flippa are not bound to the terms and conditions?

I would have thought a broker who is busting his ass and uses Flippa exclusively might have had that listing removed by now to comply with the basic terms of his favorite platform without needing to be given an incentive.

Certain rules aren't considered important enough to enforced?

I would have thought Kevin would have that removed - I already pointed it out once before - or maybe we don't care about all the rules? If you don't care about that condition why should we believe that you care about any other condition? This is a "golden" rule. Maybe you rules on shill bidding don't really get enforced either - it's hard to say. I don't suppose you are independently audited are you? Like an auctioneer would be.. oh wait, you're just a platform. My bad.

Excellent post.

 

[Archangel]

You are, for the most part, spot-on. Funnily, this in a way harkens back to my complaint of Flippa appraisals. Thing is, Flippa needs to do more to make themselves a worthwhile platform. They've been getting lower in quality over the months. And now, with free listing credits, ppl are adding really shitty names to the site, thus giving potential buyers more to sift through. As this thread (plus mine) show, Flippa kinda has a great big problem & might descend to BIDO status (ie an auction for shitty, no quality domains) within another months.

Kevin, my own conclusion about Flippa has been this:

Flippa gives privileged marketing to a small group of sellers over and over again. This helps create the impression that "If those guys can succeed, then so can I".

In reality, Flippa's top-visibility spots are often taken up by a privileged group of sellers and by shill bidders who climb the "most active" ladder through fraudulent activities of their own (for which Flippa is not directly responsible).

Ordinary Flippa customers must pay a variety of extra fees to get their auctions seen. Essentially, these fees are Flippa's real business model. I'm guessing they account for much more revenue than percentage-based commissions from auctions that actually succeed.

6 or 12 months ago, the playing field on Flippa used to be much more level, much more fair. But in the past months, the market place has become increasingly lopsided.

In fact, the selling situation at Flippa has become so absurdly skewed that a few special Flippa sellers will contact the rest of us and tell us that we need to let them list our domains because of all the special perks they get and all the "watchers" they've accumulated.

That isn't brokerage. It's just a few people with head-of-the-line privileges shaking down the rest of Flippa customers who must stand in line behind them. Frankly, it's ridiculous.

As time goes by, the situation on Flippa will become less and less fair, less and less competitive. Why? Because people with premium domains will be convinced to give their domains to some special Flippa seller so that he can list it for them -- pretty much as they would have done themselves -- and skim off an additional 15%.

Why do those guys get that extra 15%? Not because of any special outreach they're doing. No, their "brokerage" pitch to sellers is based on the special perks they get (and the sellers can't get) from Flippa management and on the watchers they've accumulated as a result of those special perks. The deck is stacked against normal sellers.

If the owners of good domains would list their stuff themselves on Flippa, then they'd accumulate a list of "watchers" themselves. But, as things are, they simply cannot get seen! Not unless they pay for a long list of add-ons to show up alongside the special privileged sellers. Not unless they ask their friends to place lots of fake bids below the reserve.

So what happens? Premium domain owners get sucked in to the idea of letting a privileged class of Flippa sellers act as a layer between themselves and any possible success on the platform. Those sellers scrape off an extra 15% just for creating listings, which is exorbitant and unearned, in my opinion. And worst of all for Flippa customers, all the "watchers" that would have gone to them go instead to the "broker" who stands first in line. So over time, their own sales and their own success contributes to making the playing field at Flippa more unequal!

It's a very bad deal for Flippa customers. Simply atrocious, in my opinion.

Am I bitter? No, I don't think so. 6 to 12 months ago, I had some decent sales at Flippa. But since then the selling environment has gone downhill. Really downhill.

Not worth $9 to list anything. It's too much of an uphill battle to get seen -- and an increasingly unnatural uphill battle, tilted more and more steeply due to Flippa management desicions.

Kevin, I like you personally. And I've even received some free promotional upgrades in the past, which I appreciate. Auctions and sales are always hit or miss. But Flippa is stacking the deck AGAINST regular customers.

I stopped listing at Flippa not because stuff wasn't selling (from time to time it still sells if you're lucky enough to be seen through the shill bids and special "brokers" with front-of-the-line privileges). I stopped selling because I felt like I was jogging and Flippa kept tilting the slope up. At this point, selling at Flippa for most of us is like running up a 70-degree incline. Unless we agree to give 15% to special sellers with access to attention.

I certainly wouldn't want to pay extra just to even things up on a basically unequal platform. And as for surrendering to a special class of Flippa brokers in order to get a normal degree of visibility, count me out!

 

[ImageAuthors]

Maybe it's time for people to take a step back. Some of the latest comments are not particularly constructive and quite frankly some of the comments are not doing any favours for the reputations of those posting.

Yes, you're right.

My critique of Flippa wasn't a personal grievance and it wasn't intended to be a personal attack -- only a negative view of where the platform seems to be headed.

Since I see a strong, cumulative tendency to upgrade brokers / special sellers at the expense of Flippa's more numerous customers, who are individual sellers, it's easy to misconstrue my remarks as an attack on those brokers / special sellers. But that's missing the forest for the trees.

I was annoyed (legitimately, I think) to see my comments ascribed to mere bitterness or inability to sell. Neither of those things are true -- merely an ad hominem distraction to draw attention away from the main thrust of my argument. But to some extent, I took the bait; and being attacked personally, retaliated. Fair. And fun. But less constructive than I wanted the discussion to be.

@KCGroup,

Ali, sorry for calling you a shyster. There's a bit of that in any salesman, probably. And you have worked for some, at least, of your success. If the rest was luck or Flippa favoritism, that's fine as far as you and I are concerned. But it does have some negative consequences for other Flippa users. Upgrading one person downgrades everybody else.

@FlippaDomains

Kevin,

When Flippa gives free or discounted listing upgrades and extra exposure to particular customers, maybe it is unfair to those who pay. Yes, I received some perks when I was listing on Flippa. Thanks for that. But I still wonder if it should happen outside of a more equitable performance-based rewards system.

What really concerned me, though, was when certain Flippa customers began parlaying their special access to Flippa management and their extra exposure into a kind of pseudo-brokerage. That's what I mean by head-of-the-line privileges.

It was a big eye opener for me to realize that another Flippa customer could insert himself between the rest of us and a sale by pointing primarily to his access to Kevin Fink, the extra marketing Flippa gives him, and his accumulated watchers.

At that point, I had a roughly comparable number of watchers. And I had seen success at Flippa before. But I realized that the writing was on the wall. There is simply no way for an individual seller to keep pace with brokers who receive extra Flippa support. That's the trend, isn't it?

Once a Flippa customer -- regardless of whether that's Ali or anybody else --finds he has a special relationship with Flippa management that gives him extra publicity and a steady stream of free upgrades, he will realize that he can use that as leverage for people farther back in the Flippa "queue" for buyer attention.

We'll hand over domains to be sold indirectly because we know the playing field isn't level. Even someone like me, who can write his own sales pitches just fine and used to see success on Flippa, will have to seriously evaluate whether he wants to compete from behind in a race for attention. I seriously thought of giving my domains to KCGroup to sell back in October because I honestly expected his marketing advantage on Flippa might give him the edge over me. But I realized also that the moment I handed over the "watchers" due to whatever quality my domains had, then the gap between myself and the broker would get wider and wider.

Kevin, forget about responding as a PR move for damage control. That's what your role requires, and I don't blame you in the least for doing it. You do it quite well.

Just think about where Flippa is headed.

1. Flippa does give extra attention and extra support to certain sellers. Brokers (as opposed to individual sellers) tend to bring more high-end domains to the system because their cost in doing so is less than actually buying the inventory. So brokers will see more bidding and sales than individuals. And Flippa will pay more attention to brokers, who will, in turn, enjoy more perks.

2. Flippa also wants a handful of special sellers that can be put on a poster as ongoing success stories. Ongoing success is important because a fluke won't help sell the dream of easy sales to regular Flippa customers -- the people in 3rd-world countries who ask me every other day if it they ought to pay for Flippa upgrades to help their underperforming auctions. So it's understandable that Flippa will put a lot of backing behind a very small number of sellers in order to assure their ongoing success. Somebody needs to make it look easy. A 100% sell-through rate certainly does that in an industry where sell-through rates are typically under 10%. Conclusion: Flippa tends to give extra support to the sellers that can act as a Flippa mascot.

3. Even if Flippa never gave any customer -- whether broker or special seller -- ANY perks, Flippa would still gradually shift from being a platform for individual sellers toward being a venue for brokers. I say that because of the "watcher" notification system that Flippa has in place. Merely listing a good domain for 30 days will result in a long-term advantage to whichever Flippa customer lists it. More people will sign up to watch that person. Brokers have a higher turnover of premium inventory as listings (forget any sales). So brokers will accumulate "watchers" at a much faster pace than individual sellers. In fact, by giving domains to a "broker" on Flippa, any individual is shooting himself in the foot by handing over watchers that would be his to someone else.

Over time, it is logically inevitable that the "watchers" gap between individual sellers and surrogates / brokers on Flippa will get wider and wider. Brokers accumulate "watchers" faster. Plus, the bigger the gap between a new Flippa customer who sells his own stuff and an established Flippa customer who sells other people's domains, then the bigger the incentive for that new customer to hand over his domains (AND his watchers) to the person with a competitive advantage on Flippa.

I'm an engineer. The term for this situation is a "positive feedback loop". No, positive feedback doesn't mean "good reviews". Positive feedback loops are sometimes a very bad thing.

What it means is that the more something moves forward, the faster it goes. It's a sign of system instability. Think of it as a runaway trend. Positive feedback is what caused (for instance) the Tacoma Narrows Bridge to collapse due to what started as a slight vibration on a windy day:

I'm not saying Flippa's going to collapse. What I am suggesting is that the inherent dynamics of (1) more watchers for brokers, (2) more perks for high visibility sellers, and (3) more cost for average sellers will lead to Flippa changing. That change is from individual sellers toward a platform of brokerage "channels".

This became clear to me once KCGroup went from being an individual seller ... to a seller with privileges ... to a part-time broker ... to someone recommending that other successful sellers give up their domains for him to sell ... to a broker with a capital "B" that Flippa actively points to.

I bear KCGroup no ill will for being in this position. The system itself made something like that inevitable. Ali was just smart enough to see the vulnerability / opportunity (depending on your perspective) and make the most of it. It seems to me that other more established brokers (like NameConnect) have realized from Ali's example that Flippa -- however it may try to position itself as a platform for individual sellers -- is really primarily a tool for brokers to gain a reputation and marketing advantage over individual sellers.

Other auction platforms such as Sedo, GoDaddy Auctions, NameJet, and so forth really put much more weight on individual domains. Flippa puts its weight on sellers.

To my mind, that's a crucial difference. Good for brokers and surrogate listing creators. Bad for individual sellers.

Nothing in my analysis is about my own Flippa sales. Nor is it a personal attack against Flippa (which has helped me make money and treated me well) or against KCGroup. I think the argument I'm putting forward deserves to be carefully considered by anybody who buys and sells domains.

 

[Archangel]

This says it all.

My critique of Flippa wasn't a personal grievance and it wasn't intended to be a personal attack -- only a negative view of where the platform seems to be headed.