Located in Reviews started by MapleDots, Mar 20, 2019.
What text do you base that on?
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. - Proverbs 9:10
I think it is pretty clear.
The problem with much of humanity is that they don't fear God. The God of the universe who knows every hair on your head (see Luke 12:7) actually knows every atom in your being. The atom itself of which all matter is presumed to be comprised has design and structure, as does every living cell.
The secular humanists and atheists presume that life is simply random, and that therefore they are accountable to nobody but their fellow man as they would sovereignly choose for themselves without consideration for an all-knowing, all-seeing and all-encompassing God of the universe.
Here is what God thinks of them:
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. - Psalm 14:1
And on that note, see my related Tweet in reply to Andrew Yang when he was trying to figure out why liberals tend not to follow conservatives on Twitter:
OK. How would you reconcile both fearing God and loving him at the same time? Would you truly love someone that would threaten you with a lifetime (or more) of fiery pain if you cross them?
Take your pick:
are we not all right and all wrong? Is it not to clean the spirit thru time, that any of us exist. Think about it, God is love, he will not see what is love by his almighty will, the darkness is what it is. The darkness. God is life forever, as we are born and entered into a temporary time period we feed the life forever and our shells pass away and we rejoin the spirit that is forever. Meanwhile we are living and filtering, by carrying the sins of earth to the grave, thus cleaning another spirit line, of our life we give back to heaven as we separate in death as skin to the ground.
None of those texts support the idea that earth is a testing ground for life in the spirit realm. That is a very liberal reading. They simply show that the tribulations we endure train us and work out good qualities. But there are many other texts that contradict that theory.
@Rob Monster, there is a reasonable explanation that is in harmony with all the scriptures. But I am wondering how someone who believes in a literal hell would reconcile that.
Tom - You can twist scripture as you like but at the end of the day the evidence throughout the Bible is that we have free will but there are forces at work that try to steer us back on the right track:
God chastens us: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. - Hebrews 12:6
God purifies us: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:- 1 Peter 1:22
God refines us: I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. - Revelation 3:18
And for those who are incorrigible, the outcome is also clear:
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; - Romans 1:28
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. - 1 Corinthians 5:5
Fine. But none of that shows that earth was created to be a training ground for the spirit realm. If you draw that conclusion, then that is twisting the scriptures to fit your own beliefs.
That is not the purpose of earth.
I have no idea what a literal hell would be like. I am more focused on the positive outcome:
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13-14
For those who fancy rewards in eternity, there are 5 crowns. This is recapped here:
No doubt. But how would you reconcile the texts that speak of loving God and being in fear of him at the same time? You just quoted another text about loving God.
This really could not be more clear:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: - Hebrews 9:27
The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. - Psalm 90:10
In short, you can expect about 70-80 years of life on earth with a sound mind to figure out the meaning of life, and then you die. Sometimes we die sooner. Either way, judgement follows -- good, bad or indifferent.
Again, this does not make any explicit reference to either spirit realm or earth. All recorded resurrections were to life on earth, except Jesus'. He was the first one recorded to be resurrected to spirit life.
This became unfortunately true many years after the rebellion in the garden of Eden. And is the consequence of our sinful state that we inherited from Adam.
Prior to that rebellion we start connecting the dots and start putting the first pieces of the puzzle together.
Do you know what the very first prophecy is in the Bible? I will give you a hint. It is in the book of Genesis. And it is fulfilled in the book of Revelation. And all the books in-between shed more and more light on that fulfillment and meaning. That prophecy forms the basis for the theme of the inspired scriptures.
so do I
how come you know that
can you prove it?
Sure, it is referenced above, and here again:
Threescore and ten is 70. Fourscore is 80.
Prior the flood there were men who lived to be more than 900, e.g. Methuselah who lived to be 969 years, though there were other old-timers. This is also how it was possible for there to be an effective oral tradition from Adam to post-flood. Here is a recap:
lived 930 years
died 216 yrs. before the birth of Noah
Seth = Adam's 3rd son
lived 912 years
Seth knew Noah for 34 years before he died
Methuselah (4th great grandson of Seth)
lived 969 years
Methuselah knew Adam 243 years*
Methuselah knew Seth 355 years
Lemech (son of Methuselah)
lived 777 years (died before his father)
he is the father of Noah
died 5 years before the flood
Noah lived 950 years
Methuselah knew Noah 600 years and died the year of the flood
Talked with his father, Lemech 595 years
Shem son of Noah (father of all Semites)
lived 600 years
talked with Methuselah 98 years*
lived after the flood 502 years
Eber or Heber (great-grandson of Shem)
lived 464 years
knew both Noah and Shem
Terah (3 x great grandson of Eber)
lived 205 years
130 yrs old when Abraham is born
talked with both Noah and Shem
Abraham (Abram son of Terah)
lived 175 years
Abraham knew Shem son of Noah 150 years
Noah died 2 yrs. before Abraham was born
Heber outlives Abraham by 4 years
Isaac (son of Abraham and Sarah)
lived 180 years
knew Shem (son of Noah) 50 years*
Jacob (called Israel and son of Isaac and father of the 12 tribes)
lived 147 years
knew Abraham 20 years
Levi (3rd oldest son of Israel – Jacob)
knew Isaac about 45 years*
knew Amran father of Moses who was his grandson*
great grandfather of Moses
Levi passed on the oral history to his grandson Amran*
Moses (son of Amran son of Kohath son of Levi)
Lived 120 years
brother of Aaron who knew their father approx. 65 years*
Moses receives the Oral Tradition from God and is commanded to write the first 5 books of the Old Testament
Post-flood God adds a speed limit:
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also isflesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. - Genesis 6:3
And indeed, in modern times, you pretty much never hear about folks living past 120 with verifiable birth records.
So, yes, per the Bible, if you are over 70, you are in overtime. It is a good time to deeply investigate the meaning of life with a sound mind and a sound body that allows you to do so!
are you kidding?
I was asking for proof
not for fairytale references
shall I quote Harry Potter?
so as we all know Adam did not only invent the sin
about also the calendar system?
and a system to communicate with his children and grandchildren for all times
called "writing system"
he was also well educated in astronomy and mathematics
yeah obviously he needed to grow very old in order to achieve all this
you cannot prove a system of ideas
using ideas that originate within that phantasie
a self-referring proof is no proof
do you understand that?
Harry Potter is a real magician
he can go through walls
Just to close out on this topic, the Apostle Peter, on the first Pentecost, immediately after the promised indwelling of the Holy Spirit, had this to say:
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. - Acts 2:27
The source text for "soul" says in the Greek psychē.
The source text for "hell" says in the Greek hadēs.
You can verify it here.
So, as much as someone might like to believe that the soul of unregenerate man simply ceases to exist, for the moment, I personally could not teach that as doctrine.
One hypothesis is that during the Millennial kingdom the conscious souls of unregenerate man are in hades, and that this is how they will be able to resurrect for the Great White Throne judgement.
A loving God might, after 1000 year, extend a final act of grace. I would not bank on that, nor would I advise anyone to spend 1000 years in "time out".
I am not a Roman Catholic, but this scenario is perhaps consistent with their teaching of "purgatory" -- an in-between state for unregenerate man.
So, one working hypothesis about the 1000 year Millennial kingdom goes like this:
1. Regenerate born-again man is judged at the Bema seat which occurs at the start of the Millennial kingdom. At that time, many are crowned, and many rule and reign with Christ for the next 1000 years during the time when Jesus Christ himself runs the world from the Throne of David in Jerusalem.
2. Unregenerate mankind is in hell with their souls still in tact, presumably regretting their choice and reconciling their decisions. Some of them become rebellious and make one last attempt at world domination (see Revelation 20:7-10). The rest wise up and acknowledge their error (Romans 14:11).
I would not advise anyone to rely on this outcome, but there is scriptural support for it. I feel similarly about the idea of the "rapture". I can find verses thats support pre-tribulation rapture but I don't rely on it as as matter of unambiguous doctrine.
I realize some folks might find this topic boring. Others, like @frank-germany perhaps think it is just silly. I find the topic fascinating. At the end of the day, my belief in Biblical truths is a big part of why I think as I do about many topics, including the role of the Internet at this stage of world history.
I don't find it boring at all
and I don't find it silly at all
I just can't believe somebody like you keep on posting
fairytales as facts
you have an important position as a decision-maker
in a key technology to the likes of us domainers
and you don't care to distinguish between facts and fiction
that's anything but silly
that is a threat to the consistency
of the domain names at epik to me
and maybe your influences are even stronger than that
I just read that you not only are the domain registrar of gap
but bought the hosting company that hosts gap
We acquired Sibyl.Li in May 2019 which added some impressive capability in the area of resilient hosting plus a rockstar network engineer named Marcelo Goncalves who has since helped Epik secure a RIPE LIR memberships with which to run our various services on our own IP addresses announcing from Switzerland.
At Sibyl, you can get high availability dedicated servers as well as resilient VPS services We are bundling this with our BitMitigate Content Delivery Network (CDN) and Anti DDoS solutions. Customers can pay with a variety of payment methods including cryptos.
And, as hoped, some interesting synergies emerged, including the start of new cloud services called Armored.net which is now live in a public beta and works very well with the Anonymize.com VPN service. Lord-willing, I believe we will see more synergies there soon.
Acts 2:27 refers to the resurrection of Jesus. In other words, God has the power to resurrect the dead from the grave. And this is supported by the fact that Jesus did not spend 3 days in a burning hell but dead in the grave.
You are allowing your interpretations to be misguided by the pagan-originated ideas of the immortal soul and a literal fiery hell. We have already seen from KJV that the soul can be destroyed and the soul dies.
psychē (soul) refers to the entire living person, body and the breath that keeps it alive. Not something that floats to another dimension after the physical body dies. It is used to refer to the present and future life prospects of an individual that are in the hands of God. Only God can "destroy a soul" without any hope of a resurrection.
hadēs is the common grave where everyone goes when they die. That's why in Acts 2:27, it says of Jesus "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell" because he knew that God would resurrect him after 3 days.
Nowhere does it talk about an "immortal soul" in this text. But that some would sleep in death for some period of time awaiting a resurrection and others will be changed instantly. The resurrection and change refer to dying in a fleshly body and being resurrected in a spiritual body. To inject the idea that an "immortal soul" keeps living (so no death occurs) is twisting this scripture.
If there is an "eternal soul" then the text We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed would make no sense.
The texts I quoted from Revelation give you the chronology of when the resurrections occur as well as what the resurrected ones to heavenly life do there, and what happens on the earth.
Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Why does it say that Christ is the first to rise from the dead? There were other resurrections recorded in the Bible before Christ's. But those were to earthly life, he was the first to be resurrected in spirit body.
1 Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
If everyone has an "eternal soul", what happened to all the millions or billions of people that died before Christ?
We can analyze this scripture some more.
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
When does the change to an incorruptible state occur?
"at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound"
The last trumpet call. When does that occur? Does the last trumpet sound every time someone dies?
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thes. 4:16)
Again, this does not sync with the concept of an "immortal soul" and the texts do not support such. So another explanation is necessary.
Your reading of Acts 2:27 is that Peter is referencing Christ rather than Peter speaking of himself. I can actually go along with that reading in the context of Acts 2:22 and onwards. I would personally still be hesitant to teach it because I would hate to be wrong about something like "eternal torment"!
However, to close this topic out, two questions remain that you did not address:
When is the soul of unregenerate man destroyed once and for all? I presume it must be after the Great White Throne judgement or otherwise how could they be consciously judged.
What is the significance of Satan's final rebellion in Revelation 20:7-10 at the end of the Millennial kingdom? Resurrected persons with free will presumably will choose whether to engage or not.
Regardless of the state of consciousness of the unregenerate/unsaved man, I think we can agree that it would be better to be in Christ, sooner rather than later. Yes?
And I never thought I would be having deep discussions on Biblical doctrine on NamePros.
The answer is not that simple. I hope that I enlighten with this post and not confuse.
Lets look at the timeline in Revelation, chapter 20:
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. (vs. 1)
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (vs. 2)
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (vs. 3)
This would occur after the war of Armageddon when Satan and his cohorts lose that great battle. Satan is thrown into the abyss (prison, pit, or state of inactivity) for a thousand years. After which he is said to be let loose for a little while. His being locked up in a prison-like state signals the beginning of the thousand year reign.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (vs. 4)
These would be the ones spoken of here (among other references):
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thes. 4:16)
According to vs. 4, they are already with Christ in heaven reigning and judging for a thousand years at the start of the millennial reign.
So what John saw in the miraculous vision, was the beginning of a new and just judicial system.
There is not one throne, but thrones, plural. Occupied by those resurrected to heavenly life and who rule with Christ.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (vs. 5)
Those raised to heaven are said to be part of the first resurrection. The rest of the dead are resurrected over the course of the thousand year reign.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (vs. 6)
So those who are part of the first resurrection (to heaven) are raised to immortal life. They cannot die. Their duties are as kings, priests and judges. As shown in this and the above texts.
This indicates that those resurrected over the course of the thousand years, can be killed in the second death and are the subjects. Their judgement will be based on their life after the resurrection since death is the payment for sin.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, (vs. 7)
At this point, the thousand years are ended. The second resurrection (of the rest of the dead) has completed its course, and Satan is loosed out of his prison. He is now able to operate again.
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (vs. 8)
Satan is allowed to mislead people again. At this point people are not victims of inherited sin. And he is successful to take to his side a great number of people, compared to the sand of the sea (that will include many of the resurrected ones as well as those born during the thousand years). This is the final test. This scripture also indicates that such individuals divide into factions resembling today's political and national groups.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (vs. 9)
The rebels are completely destroyed.
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (vs. 10)
Satan is also completely destroyed just like the political and religious elements of the old system of things were destroyed at Armageddon. Only their bad fame, record, and the lessons of what rebellion to God's rule results in will be remembered for all eternity.
Just as the beast and the false prophet are symbolisms, so are the lake of fire and brimstone, and the torment. Those (numbering into the sand of the sea) that are destroyed by fire from out of heaven are not spoken of as being tormented for ever and ever. Their memory will be forgotten.
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (vs. 11)
This is after the thousand year reign.
In the Bible, earth often refers to society of people and heaven to governments. At this stage in the timeline, the wicked society of people is no more, and the same with human governments and wicked angelic rebels that manipulate them like puppets.
Jesus hands over complete rule to his father. God is now the sovereign ruler over all creation. As described here:
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (1 Cor. 15:24)
The universe is restored to perfect order and all of the effects of Satanic rule and Adamic sin are completely reversed. Jesus turns all authority and rule to his father.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:28)
Returning to Revelation 20:
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (vs. 12)
All the resurrected ones are judged based on their works after the resurrection. It appears that judgement occurs at the same time or shortly after vs. 9. It could be that judgement of this magnitude, God takes charge of himself. But judgement to life can also be reversed if a person becomes unfaithful. It is possible for a name to be removed from the book of life:
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev. 3:5)
It is important not to confuse this judgement (of the dead or resurrected ones at the end of the thousand years), and the judgement spoken of at Matthew 25:31-46 (that of the living at the time of Armageddon).
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (vs. 14)
Death and the common grave are permanently destroyed. Note that hell is cast into the lake of fire.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (vs. 15)
Whoever rebels against God after the resurrection (now being completely perfect, just like the first human couple), will be destroyed in the lake of fire, which is the second death. From which there is no hope.
I agree with the general chronology.
As for the notion of resurrection of unregenerate man being gradual over the 1000 years, that is an interesting point and frankly not one that I had previously considered. Once again, I am not sure I could teach it as doctrine based on Rev 20:5, but do see the logic of it for reasons that I won't dive into here!
The question that remains as to the state of consciousness of the unregenerate man that has died prior to the second coming, i.e. whether there is indeed consciousness of being in hell. I could not discern from your comments whether you believe this or not, only that you believe hell is not an eternal state.
And thanks for the discussion. Even though it has little to do with domain name investing, understanding and applying Biblical doctrine is the closest thing to the meaning of life that I have found in my nearly 52 years of mortal existence. It very much informs how I lead Epik, and how I seek to empower others.
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