The USA Political Thread

[lennco]

Here you can spout your USA political views.

Rules:
1. Keep it clean
2. No fighting
3. Respect the views of others.
4. US Political views, No Religious views
5. Have fun

:wave:

 

[JB Lions]

I think Bloomberg's point is that people who habitually guzzle big sodas will likely suffer lots of health problems, which - if they're not insured - must be paid for by government (which means by taxes from people like you & me).

If you say that doesn't outweigh their personal freedom, I won't disagree with you. I'm just citing this point as an example of how unhealthy behaviors might affect other people (financially).

Those people will just double up on the smaller ones, drink it at home etc. Won't have any real affect on anything. He's going too far on that one. He might as well ban people not exercising, have some kind of law where everybody in NY has to exercise a certain amount each day. There are so many different avenues he could take if that is the reason.

In the end, I'm always going to choose personal freedom/responsibility over somebody else trying to dictate to you.

Gilsan, better be careful of supporting Gov. Bloomberg:

"He also supports same-sex marriage with the rationale that "Government shouldn't tell you whom to marry."

Plus, if this is correct, grabbed from wikipedia:

"In 2012, the NYC Board of Health approved Bloomberg's proposal to ban the sale of many sweetened drinks more than 16 ounces (470 ml.) in volume. The limit applies to businesses such as restaurants and movie theaters, but does not apply to grocery stores including 7-Eleven. Diet varieties of sweetened drinks are unaffected by the ban."

Those diet drinks aren't exactly healthy and it's just for restaurants and movie theaters, not places like 7-Eleven. Sarah Palin was drinking some Big Gulp from 7-Eleven at that conservative conference, CPAC and then I read on a blog, that's not what would have been banned anyway.

http://twitchy.com/2013/03/16/not-a-parody-libs-pounce-on-sarah-palins-big-gulp-gaffe/

 

[Theo Goodman]

So now you have to buy 2 sodas instead of one big one? That doesnt sound very environmentally sound and will produce more cup and drink container waste. It could stimulate the drink industry slightly. Also could help out the waste and recycling industry as well. Yes lets legalise crack, the market will regulate itself right? Anything else is big goverment, communisim, socialism or theocracy.

 

[GILSAN]

So now you have to buy 2 sodas instead of one big one? That doesnt sound very environmentally sound and will produce more cup and drink container waste. It could stimulate the drink industry slightly. Also could help out the waste and recycling industry as well. Yes lets legalise crack, the market will regulate itself right? Anything else is big goverment, communisim, socialism or theocracy.

So whats the point in having elections every 4 years for? You need a government for something, though I must admit I get the feeling that we are all being governed by a bunch of corrupt crooks nowadays, on both sides of the Atlantic and elsewhere as well.

Don't you even understand the point that randomo made? That the more obese people become, the more unhealthy they become and the bigger a burden they are on the rest of the population?

Big Food companies are your worst enemy (on par with Big Banks) and the American ones are the worst of all.

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 PM ----------

Where are you from originally/grew up? Communist country, Portugal, here in the states?

I lived in 6 countries, all of them Capitalist countries. I don't like Communism

 

[JB Lions]

"That the more obese people become, the more unhealthy they become and the bigger a burden they are on the rest of the population?"

Maybe we should round them all up, put them in government controlled fat camps. Same with old people. In some countries they're revered, other countries, we can't wait for them to knock off. You're over 60, the older you get, the more chance you need medical care. Let's just pick a number, once you hit that, see ya. Save some money, so not to burden the rest of us.

Or, everybody can just mind their own business, free to be, you and me type of deal.

 

[GILSAN]

Gilsan, better be careful of supporting Gov. Bloomberg:

"He also supports same-sex marriage with the rationale that "Government shouldn't tell you whom to marry."

Hey JB Lions, I'm sure you've noticed that I've already LIKED some of your posts even though I disagree with 99% of your other posts. I have no problem in agreeing with you when you are right. Pity it only happens once in a blue moon.

As for Gov Bloomberg and his support of same-sex marriage, what else can I say other than "the guy isn't perfect". He does have some flaws. :]

 

[JB Lions]

"That the more obese people become, the more unhealthy they become and the bigger a burden they are on the rest of the population?"

vs. people your age, over 60.

"Same with old people. In some countries they're revered, other countries, we can't wait for them to knock off. You're over 60, the older you get, the more chance you need medical care. Let's just pick a number, once you hit that, see ya. Save some money, so not to burden the rest of us."

Thoughts on that one?

https://www.google.com/search?q=rev...76,d.eWU&fp=e3eab91272778ac0&biw=1280&bih=563

You have a problem with unhealthy fat people, maybe they have a problem with old people and the burden they put on society.

Let's just make retirement age, a true retirement age.

 

[GILSAN]

"That the more obese people become, the more unhealthy they become and the bigger a burden they are on the rest of the population?"

vs. people your age, over 60.

"Same with old people. In some countries they're revered, other countries, we can't wait for them to knock off. You're over 60, the older you get, the more chance you need medical care. Let's just pick a number, once you hit that, see ya. Save some money, so not to burden the rest of us."

Thoughts on that one?

https://www.google.com/search?q=rev...76,d.eWU&fp=e3eab91272778ac0&biw=1280&bih=563

You have a problem with unhealthy fat people, maybe they have a problem with old people and the burden they put on society.

Let's just make retirement age, a true retirement age.

Hey, slow down cowboy, you're now shooting in all the wrong directions with this conversation. Who the hell is blaming obese people for all these problems?

Just go back 4 posts (#1183) and re-read what I wrote where I said: "Big Food companies are your worst enemy (on par with Big Banks) and the American ones are the worst of all."

I'm blaming the Food companies for obesity in the US. If you've been to Europe you'll know what I'm talking about. A considerable amount less of obese people there. Why is that?

Very simple, Firstly the people are very conscious about the health problems of obesity and secondly the food companies here don't produce so much crap food as the American companies do, though the tendency is to go the American way because of political pressure from the US Government and Big US companies like Monsanto who want to shove their Genetically modified crap down our throats.

US Big Food companies are the guilty ones. They are the major cause of out of control obesity in the US. Capiche?, Compreende?

As for your pathetic comments about old people, all I can say is; thank God I live in a place where we still respect our elders. Don't know if the same happens where you live


As for your link on your previous post, it goes to google search where you write "killing off the elderly save on health care" Amazing the things you think about. I would never have thought of searching something like that on google in a thousand years

 

[JB Lions]

"I'm blaming the Food companies for obesity in the US."

I blame people, they choose what to put in their mouths.

"As for your pathetic comments about old people, all I can say is; thank God I live in a place where we still respect our elders. Don't know if the same happens where you live"

Those were devils advocate type comments, I personally am the respectful type but that link I posted is because I heard about that before. That was in response to your comment about some types of people being a burden on the population. Point is, you can make that argument against older people. It's a fact, the older you get, the more likely you are to have health issues. That costs money right?

 

[verbster]

As for your pathetic comments about old people, all I can say is; thank God I live in a place where we still respect our elders. Don't know if the same happens where you live

yeah, we just love our old people...if they've got enough money to lock themselves away in retirement homes and play bingo six nights a week.

If you consider cutting social security and Medicaid respecting elders, then I guess we do. One guess on which party would rather take money from old people to balance the budget instead of having the 1% who have 90% of the money pay as much in taxes as average middle class folks. When huge companies like General Electric are making billions of dollars per quarter in profit, pure profit, after spending everything they can and giving huge bonuses to management, you'd think they should at least pay 20% in taxes, but no, they pay zero.... Exxon, Wal-mart, Haliburton, et al. The list is huge. Look how much rich people pay in Iceland, Switzerland, England, etc. Even in Portugal it's around 30%.

We've really gone astray. And look where it's got us.

 

[GILSAN]

I blame people, they choose what to put in their mouths.

I blame the Food Companies, because most people don't have much of a choice. They are virtually forced to eat junk food.

It's a fact, the older you get, the more likely you are to have health issues. That costs money right?

In Portugal we mostly have free health care. Part of our taxes are used for that purpose

---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:52 PM ----------

yeah, we just love our old people...if they've got enough money to lock themselves away in retirement homes and play bingo six nights a week..If you consider cutting social security and Medicaid respecting elders, then I guess we do.

Sounds like old people are a burden for you, but at least you like Polar bears.

One guess on which party would rather take money from old people to balance the budget instead of having the 1% who have 90% of the money pay as much in taxes as average middle class folks. When huge companies like General Electric are making billions of dollars per quarter in profit, pure profit, after spending everything they can and giving huge bonuses to management, you'd think they should at least pay 20% in taxes, but no, they pay zero.... Exxon, Wal-mart, Haliburton, et al. The list is huge.

All those companies have been avoiding paying taxes and earning even more bonuses under Obama, so you should be blaming both parties as they are both guilty

Look how much rich people pay in Iceland, Switzerland, England, etc. Even in Portugal it's around 30%.

We've really gone astray. And look where it's got us.

A little correction: In Portugal it's about 50% for the richest

 

[Domainace]

The problem isn't with big food companies, though they are the ones who profit by feeding people crap. The problem is with people themselves and government. The government makes laws and creates regulations that play into the hands of the largest companies, putting small family-owned food suppliers out of business. Those they can't put our of business, they will raid with armed police and shut them down for such un-American concepts as selling raw milk products.
One are where the government (preferably local) could help is by teaching about food and nutrition in schools. This used to be passed down through the generations, but the link has been broken. I find it astounding that, with all the useless rubbish and propaganda they teach in schools, they can't make a little time for nutrition and personal finance - probably the two most important things any of those students will need to know.
One can either make a case that we need a big state because government workers and politicians know better than we do how to live our lives, or that government involvement usually makes things worse. You can't pick and choose where you want fascism and where you want liberty. It's one or the other.
If you choose to blame food companies, do you really think that letting the government regulate them will make it better? You can already see how easily government is bought out - why make it easier?

But then, I think 90% of our problems are caused or aggravated by the government. I try to be consistent with that belief. I understand the urge to say "there outta be a law against (fill in your annoyance)" but I think it's a destructive approach, and why we are in so much trouble now.

 

[JB Lions]

I blame the Food Companies, because most people don't have much of a choice. They are virtually forced to eat junk food.

That's not true at all. I mentioned in the other thread how I lost 7.5 pounds in 5 days when visiting my brother (and my weight is fine already). They just go here to get their food - www.wholefoodsmarket.com/ and even grow some stuff in the yard. No dyes, organic this and that. Even any regular supermarket, you have choices. It's actually a pretty big business here in America and just getting bigger, the whole, organic, healthy, fresh, whole foods type of deal. Lot of money in it, since it's usually more expensive.

Even from the top of our government, that's what Michelle is all about - http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...school-gardens-michelle-obama-new-garden-book

I have fresh food markets all over the place where I live.

So we have choices galore. People just have to decide to make them.

 

[verbster]

The problem isn't with big food companies, though they are the ones who profit by feeding people crap. The problem is with people themselves and government. The government makes laws and creates regulations that play into the hands of the largest companies, putting small family-owned food suppliers out of business. Those they can't put our of business, they will raid with armed police and shut them down for such un-American concepts as selling raw milk products.
One are where the government (preferably local) could help is by teaching about food and nutrition in schools. This used to be passed down through the generations, but the link has been broken. I find it astounding that, with all the useless rubbish and propaganda they teach in schools, they can't make a little time for nutrition and personal finance - probably the two most important things any of those students will need to know.
One can either make a case that we need a big state because government workers and politicians know better than we do how to live our lives, or that government involvement usually makes things worse. You can't pick and choose where you want fascism and where you want liberty. It's one or the other.
If you choose to blame food companies, do you really think that letting the government regulate them will make it better? You can already see how easily government is bought out - why make it easier?

But then, I think 90% of our problems are caused or aggravated by the government. I try to be consistent with that belief. I understand the urge to say "there outta be a law against (fill in your annoyance)" but I think it's a destructive approach, and why we are in so much trouble now.

I agree that teaching finance and nutrition is very important and should be done, but if you think about it, just by saying that you've voiced your support for government. After all, who will build and pay for the school, teachers, food, equipment, maintenance and such? Who will make the budgets and hire the teachers? Who will run the busses? Who will decide the curriculum? If it's the local society, who speaks for the locals? The minute someone is asked, voted for or steps up to represent the people, you've now got a republic. Once you have lots of little republics, they have to communicate-who builds the roads and pays for them, etc. Now you have a government.

Granted that the bigger government gets, the harder it is to control and the more powerful it gets. But without a halfway good government that has good people in essential areas, we'd be in real trouble. Take your example of raw milk. Who makes sure a farm with campylobacter issues doesn't keep supplying bad milk and endangering others? Who inspects and regulates the quality of food? Without that, tomatoes could be fertilized with raw sewage. And the same goes for restaurants. And so it goes.

 

[Domainace]

I emphasised local because there is a difference. Local governments are easier to control, and tend to respond to people better. Before we had this massive government in DC, we were able to have roads, bridges and even wars. Stuff gets done, but it gets done better at the local level. When you hire a road builder at the local level, you stop paying him when the road is finished. If it's done through DC, you the Dept. of Roadbuilders, or even worse, "Road Tsar." They not only don't go away after their job is done, they keep growing and demanding more money every year after that.
Again, raw milk. I believe reputation and social cohesion encourages better behavior than laws made in distant lands. Standards are fine, but we don't need a massive bureau to enforce those standards. The way it is now, they arrest or ruin people who are making perfectly good milk. But if someone does poison a bunch of customers through professional negligence, do they go to prison? No. They pay a fine/bribe to the government, and the victims are allowed to fight over the scraps in civil suits.
There are virtually no health inspections of restaurants in Japan, yet they are far cleaner than restaurants in the US. Part of the deceit of government is that they tell us our veggies will be fertilized with raw sewage if they're not around. Meanwhile, plenty of countries with far less government eat better locally grown foods than Americans.
Extensive government takes over social contracts that were once implicit between people, and that breaks up the social fabric that prevents people from doing bad things. Again, my opinion.
We are not savages, are we? Do we really need a massive government to handle so much of our lives?

 

[Kate]

So it sounds like you're OK with allowing kids to see porn? Tell me, what benefit to society does hard core porn bring, besides making some people a lot of money? what do you learn from it?

Jeez... because I am against government censorship I want to see kids exposed to porn ? Twisted logic.

Where does your dislike of freedom and personal responsibility come from ?

 

[DU]

Who makes sure a farm with campylobacter issues doesn't keep supplying bad milk and endangering others? Who inspects and regulates the quality of food? Without that, tomatoes could be fertilized with raw sewage. And the same goes for restaurants. And so it goes.

95% of seafood is imported into the U.S.
How much of that do you think is inspected?
Less than 2%

In one recent study I read (no link, don't remember where so working from memory) of 1300 samples, 30% were MISLABELED. In one sampling of Sushi restaurants all claims to Hamachi and Yellowtail were false.

In another sample 30% of imports were found to be using BANNED antibiotics.

Who checks the Oceana factories? No one.

The problem is never big government. The problem is always big corporations. Big government is just the wrong solution.

GotMilk?
More like:
GotMelamine? 2008
GotMercury? 2010/2012

Why the f are we importing MILK products from Chinese factories?!?!?! The problem is that we take too much for granted and let the rampant growth of capitalism and corporatism destroy any sense of societal interconnectedness.

People need to reengage in all aspects of the supply chain. You'd be amazed at the difference in quality of products that have been cared for than those that haven't. This doesn't need a government. It just needs societal commitment.

We've just got lost. That's all.

 

[GILSAN]

That's not true at all. I mentioned in the other thread how I lost 7.5 pounds in 5 days when visiting my brother (and my weight is fine already). They just go here to get their food - www.wholefoodsmarket.com/ and even grow some stuff in the yard. No dyes, organic this and that. Even any regular supermarket, you have choices. It's actually a pretty big business here in America and just getting bigger, the whole, organic, healthy, fresh, whole foods type of deal. Lot of money in it, since it's usually more expensive.

Even from the top of our government, that's what Michelle is all about - http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...school-gardens-michelle-obama-new-garden-book

I have fresh food markets all over the place where I live.

So we have choices galore. People just have to decide to make them.

When I lived in LA in the mid 70's they had started selling organically grown foods a few years earlier in some stores. If memory doesn't fail me it was aprox. 50% more expensive than similar supermarket foods.

To be honest with you I didn't really notice much of a difference in taste between the organic foods and the supermarket stuff. I also remember there being a big scandal at the time, because many of these organic stores were selling products that were NOT organically grown.

I do however remember very distinctly the difference in taste of the foods in Madeira vs the USA. There was no comparison. American food was almost tasteless in comparison.

So How can you tell that all these stores selling organically grown foods are the real deal?

Look what's happened in recent weeks here in Europe and I believe in the US too about these Food Companies hiding the fact that they were using horse meat without the consumer knowing about it.

Has any of the Top Dogs of these big Food Companies been arrested yet? You can bet your bottom dollar that the answer is NO.

Michele's idea was a good one. Did she have any success?

 

[verbster]

95% of seafood is imported into the U.S.
How much of that do you think is inspected?
Less than 2%

In one recent study I read (no link, don't remember where so working from memory) of 1300 samples, 30% were MISLABELED. In one sampling of Sushi restaurants all claims to Hamachi and Yellowtail were false.

In another sample 30% of imports were found to be using BANNED antibiotics.

Who checks the Oceana factories? No one.

The problem is never big government. The problem is always big corporations. Big government is just the wrong solution.

GotMilk?
More like:
GotMelamine? 2008
GotMercury? 2010/2012

Why the f are we importing MILK products from Chinese factories?!?!?! The problem is that we take too much for granted and let the rampant growth of capitalism and corporatism destroy any sense of societal interconnectedness.

People need to reengage in all aspects of the supply chain. You'd be amazed at the difference in quality of products that have been cared for than those that haven't. This doesn't need a government. It just needs societal commitment.

We've just got lost. That's all.

While I agree with much that you and Domainace say, I'm just pointing out that a local community has limitations unless it is totally self-sufficient and isolated. There's a whole world out there, and, yes, many people can be trusted to do things right, but many can't. Most corporations would not care about environmental damage to water and air if they could make twice the profit. And if there are no avenues available to stop the pollution of groundwater that is making locals sick, what do you do? Who could prove the effects of discharge?

local communities could successfully trade with other nearby communities, but what about stuff that's imported or dangerous. What's to stop companies from using asbestos again and causing so much sadness 50 years down the road. Greed is a killer. No disclosure on labels? When children start dying from melamine in baby food and the supplier can't be traced, what's the recourse?

Who controls the military? Who controls the nukes? Who prevents an invasion or attack, which will surely happen if l we have are local militia. Who runs the power grids? Who runs communications, satellites, allots bandwidth, insures you money if a bank gets robbed? Organized crime would be rampant. Who would stop them? Who would stop terrorists from hijackings, blowing up malls, etc.

We are social animals. We need structure and organization for almost everything. Otherwise, we wouldn't have any.

 

[DU]

While I agree with much that you and Domainace say, I'm just pointing out that a local community has limitations unless it is totally self-sufficient and isolated.

I mistakenly referred to big govt as a poor generic for "wasted govt bureaucracy supporting corporatism".

I guess I'm socialist.

---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 PM ----------

To be honest with you I didn't really notice much of a difference in taste between the organic foods and the supermarket stuff. I also remember there being a big scandal at the time, because many of these organic stores were selling products that were NOT organically grown.

Organic is, contrary to popular belief, not always better in quality or environmentally. There is organic factory farming.

It's more about awareness of what's good and not.

Most people don't know what seasons are for veggies/fruits anymore. Read up on the impossible big mac. That's what I'm talking about. Get kids interested in fresh products (obviously it shouldn't ALL be local - no spending time to make stuff grow where it shouldn't - i.e. Oranges in Iowa, Potatoes in Florida).

Lots of small markets and artisan butchers etc. popping up in places (and a lot closing).

 

[verbster]

I mistakenly referred to big govt as a poor generic for "wasted govt bureaucracy supporting corporatism".

I guess I'm socialist.

You know, socialism has gotten a bad rap. People use it as a derogatory term because, like communism, it's been associated with countries ruled by tyrants or whatever. Too bad.