I step away from this thread a day and it grows a page. Wow, I’ve got a lot to comment on. I’ll have to skip a few posts, as answering everything would take all day to do. But the biggies:
A. that still wouldn't be any of your business.
B. "Problem is there are not enough children for adoptions requested" that's false. Utilize Google every now and then, get some facts. There are kids right now waiting to be adopted. Many states don't allow gay couples to adopt.
As far as the other stuff, schools are supposed to be "religiously neutral"
"The Supreme Court ordered that all religious activities be removed from the public schools (Engel v. Vatale, l962) and in subsequent years strengthened its decision through further restrictions (Abington v. Schempp, l963; Stone v. Gramm, l980; Graham v. Central, l985; Jager v. Douglas, l989"
Read page 2, first couple of paragraphs, and tell me how that doesn't make any sense.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...i6pQcm&sig=AHIEtbSQvMTcQxQBDGAMOQqj58-by2dfBw
I also wanna point out that most adoption agencies will not allow single people to adopt, either. This applies to the conversation in that it limits the amount of adoptions just as with gays adopting. Yeah, it’s not totally relevant but still, just a note.
You are overreacting in you tolerance. In fact - the white christians are so tolerant, that soon they will kiss asses, spit on their traditions and maybe will be afraid to tell that they are christians in their home country, which is .... still,but i guess not for long predominantly christian.
You said it is a 60 years of tradition with this picture. And you want to ruin the tradition because... why?
Because not everyone is a christian?
What a stupid logic!
“Stupid logic” is keeping a tradition just for the namesake of keeping a tradition. If it was a tradition to systematically kill people with red hair (for whatever reason), I see no point in an argument that the tradition should never end “because it’s tradition.” It’d be barbaric & shouldn’t exist any further. Point: there has to be more than tradition for a side to be taken. Besides, who ever said a tradition was good? Many in this thread are against hanging this painting up. So its hanging doesn’t quite come across as “a good tradition” to many here, anyway. Yet this painting should stay up to protect the integrity of a tradition (that many oppose, anyway)? This follows the same logic that ppl remain romantically involved merely outta love. Dude, it takes more than love to make a relationship work.
Personally, I'd much rather have a God that truly is all things to all people at all times. Life and death would be so much better.
But everyone has opinions. I think there is a church hymn entitled “My God Is Better Than Your God.” There are so many factions and denominations & so many different religions, in general. And too many conflicting perceptions and rationalizations and interpretations of the Bible and on and on and on. Some ppl believe there is just one way--the right way. And they have conflicting ideas of what constitutes are ‘the right way.’ As a baseball fan, I know damn better than going to St. Louis (MS) & screaming “THE CINCINNATI REDS ARE BETTER THAN THE CARDINALS!” You’d walk away (assuming you could still walk, at all) with a few teeth missing.
That's the beauty of it. The kids will be mildly exposed to religion through their peers, if at all.
Public school is not the place to formally teach religion or promote it in any way. As a parent, you can take your kids to church or send them to private school if you feel that strongly about the scripture.
This is a point I’m trying to make.
The RELIGION is strong, because the dogma is pushed upon every generation. Is that really a good thing? Is intolerance productive in an increasingly interconnected and diverse world?
It’s pushed on ppl & made to look as though anything except Christianity is wrong. There is no tolerance--you follow the Jesus route or nothing ‘cause that’s your only option (according to diehard Christian zealots).
I'm glad we agree to disagree.
So apparently for 65 years there was no disruption at that school while the painting was there, but now after one student and his parents complained, the disruption started, is that correct?
Why are the people that are complaining about the picture not identifying themselves?
I respect all opinions, even if I don’t agree with them all. Agreeing to disagree is a good thing.
Identities are typically not given to protect themselves from backlash. As stated below, some ppl would be imprisoned for suggesting a “Muslim picture” be removed. It’s not as crazy in America but there would still be backlash.
The power of one is a strange thing. One person alone cannot elect a US president but 1 could still stir the pot with other issues. It’d only take 1 complaint to make-or-break a law. That’s America for ya. lol
If the majority of the people vote for displaying 70 virgins then I have to accept it. It's called democracy. Majority wins. Just like Obama won with 53% of the vote, the other 47% may not like it but they accept it. Plain and simple
I agree with you 100%. But this doesn’t really apply here: Federal law prohibits it, thus unless there was a change in state or federal laws, a vote wouldn’t mean anything in regards to this issue of promoting religion in a public school.
Hehe - dont tell me that you are comparing Christianity and Islam. If someone propose to remove some Muslim picture in some school in Muslim country, he will be jailed at least.
In the muslim countries (the majority) - the religion is most important and is equal to the state. Maybe you can focus and write about that.
And I wouldn't go to Muslim country, because this is not my place and I wouldn't be comfortable in such environment. But when the guests in the christian countries try to make the rules - there is something wrong.
And I repeat - i guess this picture is more a tradition than some symbol of the faith. It is clear that the school should be no religion territory. And our christian countries are based on this separation of church and state.
But people who hate christianity are pushing and pushing to see what are u ready to sacrifice in the name of your tolerance.
Bingo: You wouldn’t go to a “Muslim country” because you’d not feel comfortable in the environment. Now, think of a public school (a public place, I stress). What if you were Wiccan & forced to go to a school that promoted Christianity? Would you be comfortable? Probably not. Maybe/maybe you wouldn’t have made a complaint but you aren’t the embodiment of everyone alive and thus what you choose to do isn’t what everyone or anyone would do.
Religious tolerance doesn’t (and will never) exist. We fight for what we believe in. I think some ppl might think there is only 1 side fighting. It’s not a 1-way street: Looking in both directions, you’ll see ppl fighting: to keep the painting up or to remove it. But Christians seem to ‘push’ a lot harder than most other religions in the US. They’ll fight tooth-and-nail for what they believe in. That, of course, is okay except they go OVERBOARD with everything. I’ve mentioned earlier in this thread about a worker from the Jackson schools who made it clear that if ppl were offended by the painting they should homeschool their kids. Is that the way Christians look at it? “If you don’t like the way our religion is, then you’re excluded. We don’t care if you’re uncomfortable because this is OUR religion and you’ll be subjected to it in a public setting or you’ll just have to go home.” Yes, some Christians don’t give a damn about what you believe. They’ll say “We know there is a God. I don’t care if you think there is something else ‘cause ou’re wrong. Wicca doesn’t exist. Atheism is retarded because there is a god.” Etc etc etc. They are just very close-minded people. Sure, there may be a god but that doesn’t mean Christians have to push it on everyone. Removing this painting would offend them but ya wanna know the irony? Had the tables been turned--if it was 1 Christian, in a school with mostly Wiccans, and this lone Christian wanted a painting of Jesus hung up lol there would be millions of Christians who’d fight to get it hung up. Christians (most of them) will push their beliefs on ppl. And you’d be retarded (or a non-baseball fan) of you seriously think pushing a Cardinals fan onto the Cincinnati Reds would actually work. We all have beliefs. Christians just try to hard to make the world believe that it’s their way or no way. We “relaxed Christians” have better ways to spend our time opposed to converting everyone on earth into one of them.
"And I wouldn't go to Muslim country, because this is not my place and I wouldn't be comfortable in such environment."
And I'm sure Muslims might not be too comfortable in a school that pushes Christianity.
"It is clear that the school should be no religion territory."
Yep. To me this is a very simple issue. Public schools should be religiously neutral. I think that, the Supreme Court thinks that, most educators think that. If somebody disagrees with that, then you're ok with a public school favoring one religion over another, in total disregard for the students of other religions. When you're neutral, you don't have these issues.
This better supports my statements above.
You can always find some random examples of anything. I could easily find examples opposite of that. Being neutral there is no chance of these issues. Plus the links I posted earlier that you didn't read.
Let this be a cautionary tale to anyone who believes something is fact simply because they found an article online that sides with their belief.
But even if the US were predominately jewish, sikh, hindu, buddhist, muslim, shito, wiccan or whatever the separation of church and state prevents them from pushing their religious views on everyone by making them part of government. So what does it matter if the majority is "us" or "them?"
Christians are exempt from this because they’re the favorites & only 1 God exists and thus, they need to spread the word! (Ha, I’m sure many Christians would read that & not see the sarcasm in it)
You are missing the point. Why there is separation of church and state? Because your country is Christian. Your country is what it is, because it is Christian and it has Christian traditions.
My point is that the picture is not "pushing religious views on everyone". It is just a tradition.
What if someone in Rio De Jeneiro is offended by "Christ the Redeemer"? Brazil is also a country with many different religions and cultures. They are also tolerant. There is also separation of church and state.
Do they have to destroy the statue, which is I guess far more pushing than some picture in Ohio, to prove that they are not pushing religious beliefs on anyone? How many children are viewing the image in the Ohio school and how many children are seeing the statue?
And another thing - should students in USA be banned from celebrating Christmas at school and giving each other presents? Is this pushing? And why your President is taking an oath with the Bible? Why people in courts are swearing with the Bible? Would you give up from these traditions?
1.) The painting isn’t “pushing” a view. It’s endorsing one religion over another.
2.) You are not making a realistic comparison with the statue. No one is forced to see it. ppl can choose to go there and see it or stay home. We are forced to go to schools, public or private. The issue isn’t what you are trying to tell us that it is. Thhi styatue is irrelevant.
The difference...the government requires children to go through the school system on their way to adulthood. Children are not required to make use of the public space near the statue.
Bingo.
Your Christian heritage, practices and traditions are also part of your identity. Just understand that.
Atheism is a part of our identity, too. And violence and stubbornness and stupid shows like Jersey Shore. America is a big a melting-pot of culture. So you really have no point here.
Yes the statue can be seen for miles but again, school attendance is required by the government. Two completely different situations. I see Jesus and crosses when I drive by churches too but it is not REQUIRED for me to attend service.
Ask most kids why we celebrate Christmas here in the US. The majority have no clue. My point is that the celebration in schools is about getting and giving gifts. You won't find public school teachers giving a lesson on the origin of the holiday.
In the US, most kids see Christmas as Present Day & believe a fat man in a red suit comes down to give away toys. Most parents don’t even teach the true meaning to kids. Religion is absent from pretty much EVERY religious holiday to the typical American. Sad but true.
The conclusion is reality if you actually took the time to research things.
My children will grow up with the awareness that people all have different views on things like religion. I trust that their exposure to religion won't be at the hands of the public school system but rather through friends/family.
I could shelter them from the realities of life and teach them that they'll walk on streets of gold someday but that would be irresponsible on my part. Now, why do you say they are dumb? Sounds just like a Christian when someone disagrees with their view!
And some Christians will say that ou aren’t a real Christian if you don’t force-feed their belief of your kids. Yeah, typical Christian behavior. I am Christion, I’ll say again. But I respect ppl enough to allow them to think as they shall. Educating and brainwashing are different things. Some don’t believe that.
When he says that the bible is "Bullshit" he immediately bullied and antagonized a lot of people not only in that room but all over.
I'll bet he would never have the courage to criticize Islam, which has zero tolerance towards gays.
The Bible is a collection of STORIES. They are true (in Christian belief) but they are still merely stories. No one should take the Bible too serious. It makes claims but those are from te stories added. There were LOADS of scriptures that were NOT added because the ppl who put the works together didn’t feel as though they were necessary to know. So just because the Bible says something doesn’t mean it’s exactly that, as another (unpublished) story could have nullified it altogether. The Bible isn’t “bullshit” but it’s not the “absolute” word that people believe it is.
My position about gay marriage is very simple; I don' agree with it, but I have NO problem whatsoever in them having all the rights afforded every citizen in a Civil Union except for adopting children.
This answer I had given before in another thread last year, which you obviously did not remember.
The Portuguese Parliament which at the time was majority Socialist and left wing voted to legalize Gay Marriage. They refused to have a referendum about it because they knew they would lose, like in California. I and millions never had a chance to give my opinion or vote on that matter.
The word "Marriage" is between man and women. Gays can look for a different name to call their unions. When they are able to reproduce then I will accept it as a marriage.
If that's being backward and stuck in the 50's then I'm happy with myself. At least I think for myself. I'm not part of the brainwashed Liberal sheeple who think exactly the same way and who think they are superior to others.
I agree and disagree with parts of this. But that’s the beauty: I can see all sides to your statements. I’m not referring to you but a lotta Christians have a belief auto-created in their mind. Relaxed Christians are more tolerant since we have the ability to look at things and make assumptions rather than labeling something wit the same ol’ BS & moving on.
Yes when I'm thinking about the gays, first I'm thinking about sex. You?
And you're correct, it's non of my business till the moment my kids would see them for example kissing on the street, or till the moment they would learn at school that it's okay practice to be a gay. I don't want such moments happen.
As for the oral sex, first of all thanks for the question. But I guess it's not the right place and I guess you're not the right person to talk about it.
What bother me here is that ppl believe homosexuality is just a sex thing. Love for the same sex is possible. Zealots believe homosexuality is a sexual fad & isn’t real love. You ppl are assholes.
Yes, you are stuck in the 50's. That might be your definition of marriage but not everybody's. And again, completely none of your business if somebody wants to get married and to this day, you've yet to explain how it would affect anything, because it doesn't.
And using your reasoning, people that can't have children, straight couples, shouldn't be allowed to be married.
True story: A man once said to me, “Gay ppl are terrible and filth.” I said to him, “Okay: Is the fact that Elton John is gay affecting your life? Does it make the quality or safety of your world any different?” He replied, “Yes, it affects my life directly.” I asked him how. His answer? “Do you understand the Bible’s teachings?” etc. He had no real answer as to how a celeb he’s never met affected his life. He simply tried to say why ppl shouldn’t be gay, NOT how this affected his life. Typical religious idiot. THE BIBLE IS NOT A SHIELD TO USE WHEN YOU HAVE NO ANSWER, PPL!
Not only it is my definition, it's the majority's definition, so you are in the minority. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine, but the minute you think you are superior to me then we have an eternal war going on
No, you aren’t even close. We have states that allow gay marriage--and the right was given after a vote. “Democracy.” The majority of the ppl in those states had a different definition than you. This is not opinion. It is fact that cannot be disputed.
Just going by how this thread is going, it's pretty easy to see why religion is the basis of so much intolerance and bloodshed.
I enjoy a spirited conversation as much as anyone, but I fear this thread is quickly degenerating into its own type of violence of which no good shall come.
I vote to close this thread.
This thread is a shining example of why religion in schools is bad--too much hostility with all sides involved.
