Please assist! Massive end user deal

[Federer]

I am on the verge of completing a massive end user deal for a short domain - getting 58 times what I paid for it.

I have cash in Escrow OK but I am not trying to PUSH the domain to the new buyer through EuropeDomainsLLC. I have sent faxes and emails that are required for the change of ownership, signature etc. But they are taking ages...Is there anyone who can help me find a valid telephone number for these guys? If this takes too long, I am going to lose the deal.

If someone can help, I can return the favour (PM for details).

Fed.

 

[footodors]

So if a simple, random email can be used as nuclear powered ammo against you in a wipo case then what's stopping people from emailing endusers about domains that their "sworn enemies" actually own?

 

[JoshuaPz]

Without the intention of taking a side, I frankly don't think a this denigration of Luc's actions serves any productive end. And, to be even more frank, I'm with Amy on the fact that tons of NPers have likely done exactly what Luc has -- offering domains to end-users they didn't yet possess (though we don't yet have hard evidence Luc did this with any domain aside from DMG.com) -- every day. Only Luc was in the unfortunate position of standing center-stage. Hundreds of NP fans were watching him and in many cases "background-checking" every sale, and now the domaining world is icing him into an effigy because of one proven act of deception.

If you were personally hurt by Luc's actions, then resolve your misgiving with him via PM. Otherwise I say we all leave the poor guy alone. Our energies are much better off directed towards innovation and positive encouragement.

NOTE: I am not proposing we close this thread, only that we lay our bitterness and negativity to rest. In my view, anger is a sign of weakness. We resort to it only when we're incapable of handling a situation through other means like diplomacy and rhetoric.

 

[Michael]

So if a simple, random email can be used as nuclear powered ammo against you in a wipo case then what's stopping people from emailing endusers about domains that their "sworn enemies" actually own?

Not much actually, other than a potential civil suit from your sworn enemy.

Without the intention of taking a side, I frankly don't think a this denigration of Luc's actions serves any productive end. And, to be even more frank, I'm with Amy on the fact that tons of NPers have likely done exactly what Luc has -- offering domains to end-users they didn't yet possess (though we don't yet have hard evidence Luc did this with any domain aside from DMG.com) -- every day. Only Luc was in the unfortunate position of standing center-stage. Hundreds of NP fans were watching him and in many cases "background-checking" every sale, and now the domaining world is icing him into an effigy because of one proven act of deception.

If you were personally hurt by Luc's actions, then resolve your misgiving with him via PM. Otherwise I say we all leave the poor guy alone. Our energies are much better off directed towards innovation and positive encouragement.

NOTE: I am not proposing we close this thread, only that we lay our bitterness and negativity to rest. In my view, anger is a sign of weakness. We resort to it only when we're incapable of handling a situation through other means like diplomacy and rhetoric.

So murder should be OK just because tons of people do it? Sorry, but that logic doesn't hold up. If we don't take a strong stance against this, all the newbies will be doing it and eventually someone is going to get screwed badly.

Btw, if you read a few pages back you would see he admitted to doing it on Nikas.com, and earlier today he admitted to doing it on JumpGames.com. Do you need more than an admission from Luc to know he did something? Then lets not say he only did it on DMG.com.

 

[footodors]

Who would get screwed badly?
Losing your domain in wipo because someone else emails a potential trademark owner about selling it. As if they didn't already know about the domain and again one email or correspondence from a non-owner hardly a wipo case makes.

Auction sites also get to sell domains for prices they might not normally obtain.
blahblah23.us is likely worth nada, however I think it might be valuable to someone so I search and search and finally find an enduser. Bam, I give the domain value for me, the enduser and the auction site, where before, none might have existed.

 

[Jake]

So if a simple, random email can be used as nuclear powered ammo against you in a wipo case then what's stopping people from emailing endusers about domains that their "sworn enemies" actually own?

Most domainers don't have "sworn enemies". And the ones that do, are mature enough to not pull something that low. (Not saying anything about what is taking place with Luc. I don't even want in on this argument. Just adding my 2 cents about that comment)

 

[DomainTalker]

I'm really surprised how many people are OK with someone putting others at risk for his own gain just because he was nice to them.

I, for one, am not saying I'm okay with what Federer has done, Michael....I've said here, and elsewhere, that I think it was foolish, naive, silly...

...And, I accept he's put others possibly at risk. And, I wouldn't try to sell a name I didn't own, myself...


But, lets remember, that both NameJet, and the bidders for, say, DMG, knew - or should have known - that there were TM's on that name....They all knowingly took a risk by being involved with it, regardless of what Federer did, or didn't do.

Also, if a bidder for DMG wins the name - and uses it in good faith - they should have nothing to fear from a WIPO.

So, there was risk involved in the DMG thing, without Federer's actions, anyway....This is overlooked in all this. And, places his actions in a slightly less serious light. Its not like Federer manufactured a risk that was not already there...


My point is, some dynamic seems to be at work here that seeks to single him out..."Lets protect the whole domain industry from Federer", the mob cries!

....whilst not calling for the banning from the industry of other people & places for all kinds of unethical practices, such as, Sedo's disgraceful .mobi premium auction of Dec 2007, or, suspected front-running by some registrars & WHOis look-ups, or, the amazing snatching of the best names, for very cheap prices, in the .Asia landrush by an associated party to the Registry...


Damn stupid thing to do. Okay. He's been roundly chastised for it. In the overall scheme of things, that's enough, imo.

.

 

[1901gt]

Mates, get on with it. He already admitted his mistake.

 

[Michael]

Just because you hold a domain that someone in the world has a trademark on does not mean you will lose a WIPO complaint. They have to prove that you were doing it in bad faith, i.e. you were aware of their trademark and were trying to profit from it. Luc was giving them strong bad faith ammunition. That my friends is the point, not that he made the TM holder aware that the domain existed (obviously).

 

[DomainTalker]

Luc was giving them strong bad faith ammunition.

Okay....Merit in that point - tho, Federer's actions would have no bearing on the good, or bad, faith, of the new owner of the name (after auction)....Especially, if the new owner demonstrably showed good faith use of the name.....Any bad faith, in the eyes of a WIPO panel would be by Federer - not the new owner.


So, the real crime (in the eyes of many here), I suspect, remains that Federer drew the attention of the TM holder to the name on auction...thereby increasing the risk of legal action for the new owner - not, that he (Federer) would, in fact, be the cause of any action.


...Like I said, naive & silly thing to do - but, not a hanging offence, imo.

.

 

[Michael]

Any bad faith, in the eyes of a WIPO panel would be by Federer - not the new owner.

Therein lies the problem, how are you supposed to prove to the panelists that Luc wasn't acting on your behalf or in fact working for you? If it were that simple, people would just email TM holders with a fake name, and if someone filed a complaint they would just say the contact wasn't authorized.

 

[DomainTalker]

Therein lies the problem, how are you supposed to prove to the panelists that Luc wasn't acting on your behalf or in fact working for you?

I'm sure the onus of proof would be the other way round...

They (the complainant) would have to prove that Federer was, in fact, acting on behalf of the new owner, when he (Federer) approached them (thereby placing the new owner in a position of having acted in bad faith) - and, clearly, they could never prove that, because Federer wasn't doing so.....He was acting on his own behalf.


Y'see, I'm trying to distinguish between idiocy - and malice, or genuinely dangerous activity...


What I'm still seeing is idiocy by Federer, not really dangerous activity - because the risk was always there, for any bidder, without Federer's actions......But, I'm seeing a lot of almost visceral reaction to the person.

I'm testing whether emotion is running this - and, whether the facts really do deserve this amazing reaction.

.

 

[footodors]

If it were that simple, people would just email TM holders with a fake name, and if someone filed a complaint they would just say the contact wasn't authorized.

Exactly, so how much weight would his or anyone contacting the TM holders carry?

Need much more than an email to show bad faith.

 

[-REECE-]

I think what we're forgetting here is that even if you do win the UDRP, you're still out thousands of dollars in lawyer fees, not to mention stress. This kind of behaviour **would** increase the likelihood of being served a UDRP.

It doesn't even matter whether or not the companies solicited "apparently have" USA trademarks -- they may still be able to file UDRPs just the same (trademarks do not need to be registered with USPTO.gov to be enforced via UDRP) and will likely win if you don't file a defence, meaning you're out thousands either way courtesy of this unwarranted solicitation.

I'm sure the onus of proof would be the other way round...

They (the complainant) would have to prove that Federer was, in fact, acting on behalf of the new owner, when he (Federer) approached them (thereby placing the new owner in a position of having acted in bad faith) - and, clearly, they could never prove that, because Federer wasn't doing so.....He was acting on his own behalf.


Y'see, I'm trying to distinguish between idiocy - and malice, or genuinely dangerous activity...


What I'm still seeing is idiocy by Federer, not really dangerous activity - because the risk was always there, for any bidder, without Federer's actions......But, I'm seeing a lot of almost visceral reaction to the person.

I'm testing whether emotion is running this - and, whether the facts really do deserve this amazing reaction.

.

 

[Jingles]

Never once in my post did I say that what Luc did was ok, don't put words in my mouth. My point was that over the last few months that I've dealt with him he has always acted in a respectable manner and has never given me any indication to think that his intentions are bad.

The general feel of this thread is that the man is deceptive and fraudulant in everything he does, and I have just not found that to be the case in my own personal experience with him.

 

[ripley]

Let's move on folks. I think we've run this up the flagpole to the point where all can learn something, but it's beating a dead horse now. NP staff can and should take whatever action they deem appropriate, but I don't think we're adding anything valuable to the discussion anymore.

ripley.