Please assist! Massive end user deal

[Federer]

I am on the verge of completing a massive end user deal for a short domain - getting 58 times what I paid for it.

I have cash in Escrow OK but I am not trying to PUSH the domain to the new buyer through EuropeDomainsLLC. I have sent faxes and emails that are required for the change of ownership, signature etc. But they are taking ages...Is there anyone who can help me find a valid telephone number for these guys? If this takes too long, I am going to lose the deal.

If someone can help, I can return the favour (PM for details).

Fed.

 

[Michael]

Yes, EVERY time -- whether it has worked or not. The people who bought these domains are now at a higher risk of a UDRP and they DESERVE to know that and take appropriate legal action if necessary.



When someone chooses not to renew their domain, they give up all rights to the domain. If the person does not redeem the domain, they lose the domain. If the person redeems the domain, the winner of the auction is refunded and the domain is returned to the person who is still listed in the whois at the cost of the redemption fee.

Let's not confuse the two -- there is nothing in common. The registrar is not contacting endusers.

Great explanation :tu: I tried to rep you but it seems I did that too often recently.

 

[FPForum]

This whole thread is a testament to how proud he is of himself for his business practices...

Much agreed here.

 

[Peter]

When someone chooses not to renew their domain, they give up all rights to the domain. If the person does not redeem the domain, they lose the domain. If the person redeems the domain, the winner of the auction is refunded and the domain is returned to the person who is still listed in the whois at the cost of the redemption fee.

Let's not confuse the two -- there is nothing in common. The registrar is not contacting endusers.

You are quite correct there are differences between the 2 practices however where you state that registrars are not contacting end users, in a sense they are contacting buyers by the sheer fact they list them. They are attempting to sell domains they do not at that point have any right to sell.

While a domain is in redemption the owner still has the option to keep the domain, nobody else has the right to the name until that right has been denied or the time runs out.

On a side note (and not directed to -REECE- but more the conversation in general). Whether you agree with what federer has been doing or not this thread is not the place to be abusive to him for those practices.

 

[JoshuaPz]

I'm still trying to formulate an opinion on this episode, but allow me to play devil's advocate against the sentiment of the majority.

Based on my (limited) interactions with Luc and from reading his postings, I believe he's an absolute natural, sharp salesman who I'd deem perfectly capable of flipping high-dollar domains at the excellent ROIs he's reporting. Do I smell a rat in his the risk he took on Explosion.com? Sort of, but I haven't yet seen any evidence that Luc isn't a millionaire who has, in fact, purchased some other domains that he's failed to flip -- we only hear of the successes. And if we analogize splurging $24K on Explosion.com (not an unreasonable amount to spend on such an excellent domain) to placing $24K in a bank account that pays 15% interest each year, it's wouldn't be the end of the world if Luc failed to flip the domain. I'm sure he'd receive numerous sale inquiries on Explosion.com as the .com space became increasingly crowded and Explosion.com's value rose over the years.

That 15% annual accruement wouldn't mitigate the risk of forking out so much cash for Explosion.com in the eyes of many domainers (assuming they didn't have a definitive sale prospect lined up as you're assuming Luc has), but when you're as a gifted a salesman as Steve Jobs and shine with sort of confidence past successes bring, your probability of flipping a given domain you've just acquired within a week is far higher than the 20% I can personally boast. I've met businessmen like Luc before. Yes, they encounter failure occasionally, but when they're on, they're ON, and absolutely unstoppable.

So, while I'm not asserting that Luc did or didn't purchase each of his domains at before pitching it (aside from DMG.com, in which he admitted wrongdoing), I'd be willing to believe the man is so talented and wealthy that he could shoulder the amount of risk he ostensibly took and still prevail. He shouldn't need to resort to the tactics he employed with DMG.com to succeed.

 

[Jeffrey]

There is really nothing unethical or wrong or even sinful if he sells a domain not yet owned by Luc. Unless he tells his buyers "I own the domain XXX.com, i can sell it to you for XXX$."

Apple and Microsoft was founded by that tactic. :D

 

[-REECE-]

It's obviously wrong and unethical if you've been reading this thread at all. I don't recall Bill Gates or Steve Jobs ever being domainers, however Bill Gates did write a pretty good article about investing in domains in 1999 if memory serves me correctly.

There is really nothing unethical or wrong or even sinful if he sells a domain not yet owned by Luc. Unless he tells his buyers "I own the domain XXX.com, i can sell it to you for XXX$."

Apple and Microsoft was founded by that tactic. :D

 

[Jeffrey]

What i meant was Jobs and Gates during their start up years made business dealings with big companies even though the two business legends' product was yet to be created.

They basically said, "We have that software or we could give you that hardware..." but in truth their product was non-existent yet at the time of the dealing.

 

[DomainTalker]

Understand your point, Reece...

But, nonetheless, I suppose it could be said that, the moment an expiring domain Auction House lists any domain for sale (a domain that - at that moment - still belongs to someone else), they are placing it for sale into the public domain....And, therefore, could be seen to be potentially drawing the attention of a TM holder to that name...

...Therefore, it could be said that the (expiring domain) Auction House is opening up both the current owner of that name - and the potential new owner - to a UDRP, or a legal claim for the TM holder.

...Much in the same way Federer is being accused of in his 'sell before he buys' strategy...


I agree, of course, proactively approaching direct to the TM holder is more likely to get their attention, than, passively listing a name, but, similar risks to the domain owner is at play by the public listing of Auction House actions....Same principle - seems its only a question of degree...


Look...Wild claims about fraud, and deception, and 'It is no coincidence lately that winners have been getting C&D's UDRP and WIPO within a week(s) of winning auctions you (Federer) were in'....'criminal'... are being made here.....Where is the evidence of all these WIPO's etc Federer has caused...? (we've yet to see what happens even with DMG...maybe nothing will).


I agree, the guy has been foolish...Didn't think through the implications of what he did...And, it upped the potential risk...


I just think its too early to call 'fraud' and causing WIPO's, rather than just say: 'Federer - don't do this again...'....And, he says he won't.

.

 

[JoshuaPz]

What i meant was Jobs and Gates during their start up years made business dealings with big companies even though the two business legends' product was yet to be created.

They basically said, "We have that software or we could give you that hardware..." but in truth their product was non-existent yet at the time of the dealing.

I doubt any company pledged pledged cash to Gates or Jobs until they at least demonstrated prototypes. These prototypes usually cost thousands or millions of dollars to build, hence they entailed significant risk. Reece is saying that Luc, unlike, Jobs & Gates, batted all risk away from himself and unto others' shoulders.

The prototypes posed no potential TM infringement issues (patent infringement, possibly...).

Gates' & Jobs' technology, if built successfully, would result in major economic and technology contributions that would allow the masses to become more productive and improve quality of life for money. If they failed, nobody would have gotten hurt (except perhaps Microsoft and Apple). However, they wouldn't fail because Gates had an innovative technical genius (Paul Allen) working for him and Jobs his own (Steve Wozniak). By contrast, the sale (or failure to sell) DMG.com would offer very little positive contribution to society at large.

I'm too tired to articulate this well (it's 3:30am here) but I think your comparison is flawed.

 

[SpareDomains]

I have never solicited an end user as I have found when the end user approaches you first and inquires about the domain the return on investment is usually in the xxx-xxxx percentage range, I think it is a bad practice to solicit domains to end users that you do not own unless you have a brokerage agreement with the current domain owner as the best money comes when the end user makes the first move as soliciting shows a form of desperation along with the potential legal fees you could be inflicting on the current domain owner should one of your attempts go bad.

 

[Jingles]

Understand your point, Reece...

But, nonetheless, I suppose it could be said that, the moment an expiring domain Auction House lists any domain for sale (a domain that - at that moment - still belongs to someone else), they are placing it for sale into the public domain....And, therefore, could be seen to be potentially drawing the attention of a TM holder to that name...

...Therefore, it could be said that the (expiring domain) Auction House is opening up both the current owner of that name - and the potential new owner - to a UDRP, or a legal claim for the TM holder.

...Much in the same way Federer is being accused of in his 'sell before he buys' strategy...


I agree, of course, proactively approaching direct to the TM holder is more likely to get their attention, than, passively listing a name, but, similar risks to the domain owner is at play by the public listing of Auction House actions....Same principle - seems its only a question of degree...


Look...Wild claims about fraud, and deception, and 'It is no coincidence lately that winners have been getting C&D's UDRP and WIPO within a week(s) of winning auctions you (Federer) were in'....'criminal'... are being made here.....Where is the evidence of all these WIPO's etc Federer has caused...? (we've yet to see what happens even with DMG...maybe nothing will).


I agree, the guy has been foolish...Didn't think through the implications of what he did...And, it upped the potential risk...


I just think its too early to call 'fraud' and causing WIPO's, rather than just say: 'Federer - don't do this again...'....And, he says he won't.

.

Good post and I totally agree. I'd also like to know too who all these "victims" at the hands of Luc are.

I don't know Luc personally, and I don't know every angle he uses to make a sale, but I can say that the most help/tips/advice I have received have come from Luc (and JoshuaPz too). He always been very polite, professional and has certainly never suggested I try anything fraudulent in order to make a domain sale. He's always encouraged me and inspired me to not give up and work harder...unlike some around here who think they're holier than God and like to do nothing but shoot down the little guy/girl.

I would be SO willing to bet this type of dirty deed goes on so much more than anyone would ever be willing to admit to just by the amount of contradictions I've seen here over the past year.

 

[tzsxc]

YOU put your sales in the same basket ! Trust me this is not jealousy, this is protecting this community from YOU! If you EVER continue to contact end users on names in auction YOU DO NOT OWN YET or names listed for sale on the forums that again YOU DO NOT OWN YET, I swear I will get a team together and sue the crap out of you and do my best to see criminal charges of fraud brought against you and seek damages!

It is no coincidence lately that winners have been getting C&D's UDRP and WIPO within a week(s) of winning auctions you were in. You cost people more than youve made, disgusting.

Buy the name THEN do what you wish, until such time do not contact a soul! Ever wonder why no one else does ? Because its unethical, immoral, fraud, deceptive and you are costing people money.

No way else to say it to you STOP!

I totally agree with this. He should be banned.

But it doesn't stop him from doing what he's doing already. I am wondering if WIPO's actually take into account if the solictor is different from the owner?

Banning him from here+DNF+NJ+POOL+SNAP+any_domain_place won't be enuf? One could always just randomly pick any name and do what he's been doing.

 

[Michael]

We already know he did some damage with DMG.com. People had to back out of the auction, because if they won they run a huge risk of getting filed against. Not only was there the immediate loss of revenue for NameJet, the winner could have gone on to sell it for a handsome profit which will now never be realized because of Luc.

Just because more damage hasn't surfaced yet (that has been publicly reported), doesn't mean what he did is OK. Someone could have a WIPO complaint filed against them tomorrow for a name they won earlier in the year at auction that Luc pulled his shenanigans with. But hey, let's forget all this because he is friendly.

I'm really surprised how many people are OK with someone putting others at risk for his own gain just because he was nice to them. Just imagine if you lost one of your most valuable domains or had to spend thousands in legal fees defending it because Luc offered it to a TM holder without your permission so HE could profit. How would you feel? You'd be PISSED, that's how you'd feel.

 

[mdamin76]

Wow, you are 58 times richer. Good luck.

 

[wussadotcom]

I made a mistake. I have admited I was wrong. I regret the course of action taken and will make sure it will not be repeated. I have made tons of great sales 1-2 months AFTER having acquired generic domains in the past and I will continue to make sales in the future.

I have apologised. Do you understand or shall I repeat my apologies again... and again. Im sorry. I apologise.

How about you spend some extra bucks from your big earning to buy DMG.com and see what happens. Atleast it shows your sincerely sorry

- DMG(.)com
- JumpGames(.)com (I actually won this domain and then sold to JumpGames.co.in after the auction) - But I had contacted the company before being awarded the domain

On only ONE occasion, I contacted a TM owner whilst in an auction (DMG). That was the 1st and last time. I never had any idea about this TM issue before. I contact all end users a few hours after being awarded domains, and also help others by brokering their domains to top buyers in Europe and U.S. almost free of charge.

Nikas? $90 bucks to cover your cost but a very good price. I think your a great brokerer but with some mistakes made.

I really dont think what Federer does is wrong. Take Amazon US book store for example. I know so many ppl with huge successful book stores on Amazon. They take orders for books printed at India or UK at prices atleast 10 times more than what they would pay at the publishing country and when they receive an order just buy it from the UK or Indian company at a HUGE regular buyer discount and sell them to the buyer in the US. I even know this one guy who when he receives an order, merely buys from Amazon UK, has a guy in UK who ships it to him in the US and he in turn ships it to his "customer"

Lol.. that completely different. Thats reselling @ dropshipping.
You won't get any WIPO notice. Though you can get sued without permission from the TM holder aka original copyright holder. :tri:

 

[footodors]

So if a simple, random email can be used as nuclear powered ammo against you in a wipo case then what's stopping people from emailing endusers about domains that their "sworn enemies" actually own?

 

[JoshuaPz]

Without the intention of taking a side, I frankly don't think a this denigration of Luc's actions serves any productive end. And, to be even more frank, I'm with Amy on the fact that tons of NPers have likely done exactly what Luc has -- offering domains to end-users they didn't yet possess (though we don't yet have hard evidence Luc did this with any domain aside from DMG.com) -- every day. Only Luc was in the unfortunate position of standing center-stage. Hundreds of NP fans were watching him and in many cases "background-checking" every sale, and now the domaining world is icing him into an effigy because of one proven act of deception.

If you were personally hurt by Luc's actions, then resolve your misgiving with him via PM. Otherwise I say we all leave the poor guy alone. Our energies are much better off directed towards innovation and positive encouragement.

NOTE: I am not proposing we close this thread, only that we lay our bitterness and negativity to rest. In my view, anger is a sign of weakness. We resort to it only when we're incapable of handling a situation through other means like diplomacy and rhetoric.

 

[Michael]

So if a simple, random email can be used as nuclear powered ammo against you in a wipo case then what's stopping people from emailing endusers about domains that their "sworn enemies" actually own?

Not much actually, other than a potential civil suit from your sworn enemy.

Without the intention of taking a side, I frankly don't think a this denigration of Luc's actions serves any productive end. And, to be even more frank, I'm with Amy on the fact that tons of NPers have likely done exactly what Luc has -- offering domains to end-users they didn't yet possess (though we don't yet have hard evidence Luc did this with any domain aside from DMG.com) -- every day. Only Luc was in the unfortunate position of standing center-stage. Hundreds of NP fans were watching him and in many cases "background-checking" every sale, and now the domaining world is icing him into an effigy because of one proven act of deception.

If you were personally hurt by Luc's actions, then resolve your misgiving with him via PM. Otherwise I say we all leave the poor guy alone. Our energies are much better off directed towards innovation and positive encouragement.

NOTE: I am not proposing we close this thread, only that we lay our bitterness and negativity to rest. In my view, anger is a sign of weakness. We resort to it only when we're incapable of handling a situation through other means like diplomacy and rhetoric.

So murder should be OK just because tons of people do it? Sorry, but that logic doesn't hold up. If we don't take a strong stance against this, all the newbies will be doing it and eventually someone is going to get screwed badly.

Btw, if you read a few pages back you would see he admitted to doing it on Nikas.com, and earlier today he admitted to doing it on JumpGames.com. Do you need more than an admission from Luc to know he did something? Then lets not say he only did it on DMG.com.

 

[footodors]

Who would get screwed badly?
Losing your domain in wipo because someone else emails a potential trademark owner about selling it. As if they didn't already know about the domain and again one email or correspondence from a non-owner hardly a wipo case makes.

Auction sites also get to sell domains for prices they might not normally obtain.
blahblah23.us is likely worth nada, however I think it might be valuable to someone so I search and search and finally find an enduser. Bam, I give the domain value for me, the enduser and the auction site, where before, none might have existed.

 

[Jake]

So if a simple, random email can be used as nuclear powered ammo against you in a wipo case then what's stopping people from emailing endusers about domains that their "sworn enemies" actually own?

Most domainers don't have "sworn enemies". And the ones that do, are mature enough to not pull something that low. (Not saying anything about what is taking place with Luc. I don't even want in on this argument. Just adding my 2 cents about that comment)

 

[DomainTalker]

I'm really surprised how many people are OK with someone putting others at risk for his own gain just because he was nice to them.

I, for one, am not saying I'm okay with what Federer has done, Michael....I've said here, and elsewhere, that I think it was foolish, naive, silly...

...And, I accept he's put others possibly at risk. And, I wouldn't try to sell a name I didn't own, myself...


But, lets remember, that both NameJet, and the bidders for, say, DMG, knew - or should have known - that there were TM's on that name....They all knowingly took a risk by being involved with it, regardless of what Federer did, or didn't do.

Also, if a bidder for DMG wins the name - and uses it in good faith - they should have nothing to fear from a WIPO.

So, there was risk involved in the DMG thing, without Federer's actions, anyway....This is overlooked in all this. And, places his actions in a slightly less serious light. Its not like Federer manufactured a risk that was not already there...


My point is, some dynamic seems to be at work here that seeks to single him out..."Lets protect the whole domain industry from Federer", the mob cries!

....whilst not calling for the banning from the industry of other people & places for all kinds of unethical practices, such as, Sedo's disgraceful .mobi premium auction of Dec 2007, or, suspected front-running by some registrars & WHOis look-ups, or, the amazing snatching of the best names, for very cheap prices, in the .Asia landrush by an associated party to the Registry...


Damn stupid thing to do. Okay. He's been roundly chastised for it. In the overall scheme of things, that's enough, imo.

.

 

[1901gt]

Mates, get on with it. He already admitted his mistake.

 

[Michael]

Just because you hold a domain that someone in the world has a trademark on does not mean you will lose a WIPO complaint. They have to prove that you were doing it in bad faith, i.e. you were aware of their trademark and were trying to profit from it. Luc was giving them strong bad faith ammunition. That my friends is the point, not that he made the TM holder aware that the domain existed (obviously).

 

[DomainTalker]

Luc was giving them strong bad faith ammunition.

Okay....Merit in that point - tho, Federer's actions would have no bearing on the good, or bad, faith, of the new owner of the name (after auction)....Especially, if the new owner demonstrably showed good faith use of the name.....Any bad faith, in the eyes of a WIPO panel would be by Federer - not the new owner.


So, the real crime (in the eyes of many here), I suspect, remains that Federer drew the attention of the TM holder to the name on auction...thereby increasing the risk of legal action for the new owner - not, that he (Federer) would, in fact, be the cause of any action.


...Like I said, naive & silly thing to do - but, not a hanging offence, imo.

.

 

[Michael]

Any bad faith, in the eyes of a WIPO panel would be by Federer - not the new owner.

Therein lies the problem, how are you supposed to prove to the panelists that Luc wasn't acting on your behalf or in fact working for you? If it were that simple, people would just email TM holders with a fake name, and if someone filed a complaint they would just say the contact wasn't authorized.