Labeled as debate in The Break Room, started by oldtimer, Aug 23, 2019
I feel sorry for those people that have ended up being in such predicament on the West Coast, but there are two separate tracks that need to be followed here simultaneously to gain control over this situation, there is the long term solution which is by undoing the damage that has been done to the Environment and reversing the effects of the Climate Change which might take several decades and then there is what we can do right this minute which is to eliminate the fuel that feeds these fires.
These are what I suggested back in Oct 2019 on this thread on page 11:
Quote: As far as cleaning the underbrush and twigs go I know it's a huge task, but it's not impossible. It can create a lot of good jobs if they put some of the unemployed people to work full time on this along side all the volunteers. They can also ask for help from all the younger generations that have recently become environmentally aware and want to do something good for their Planet. If they start an Environmental tourism program they might be able to get people to come over from all over the Nation (or the World) to help out just for the fun of it. /Quote
Quote: Yes, upgrading the electric lines and poles to make them much more stronger and raking the forest and thinning out the number of trees so that there will be some open space between them is what is going to take to bring this problem under control and if there is not the will to do it then people might as well move out of those areas because things are only going to get worse if no concrete and large scale action is taken now. /Quote
The part about the Environmental Tourism of course was before the Pandemic. Although it might still be feasible since most people are going to work outdoors and probably are going to be far apart from each other.
Map of global forest fires (NASA):
To some extent fires have been a natural part of the Eco System of our Planet for millions of years to the point that some trees can't reproduce without the heat generated by the fires that help open up their seed pods, but when these fires go out of control and start to clash with human habitat and safety due to all the human activities that have taken the Environment out of balance then the responsibility falls on our shoulder as the human race to correct these mistakes and undo all the damage that has been done to our home Planet in the past century or so ever since we entered the age of Industrialization.
At the beginning of the Industrial age people weren't aware of all the damage that they were causing to the Environment, but for over half a Century now the scientists have been sounding the alarms as to how human activity is contributing to Climate Change and is causing damage to the Environment, but it seems like the World as a whole has chosen to ignore all these warnings and has even allowed the scientists and the Environmental activists who were consistently and continuously trying to bring attention to the Environmental catastrophes that were ahead to become the subject of ridicule and hostility simply because the corporations and forces that have been benefiting from the status quo didn't want anything to disturb their path to the riches and to jeopardize the power that they have been gaining over the people at the cost of ruining this Planet.
The good news is that more and more people are becoming aware of the Environmental problems that they now can see with their own eyes as everything that the scientists and activists have been warning them about is accelerating quickly and is becoming more and more noticeable in their daily lives.
But, the bad news is that many of the Global forces that have been contributing to all these Environmental problems are still continuing to follow the same paths and to some extent are in denial of what is happening to this Planet even though everyone can see with their own eyes that all the Environmental problems are intensifying and accelerating around them.
There is no one person to blame for all this as it is the whole World that has dropped the ball when it comes to managing this little Planet of ours properly. Even those who have been in the position of leadership globally (especially in the United Nations) who claim that they care about the Environment have been dancing around these issues for over 50 years now and have been negligent by missing many opportunities in the past to do something concrete and decisive about all these problems since they were more occupied with protecting their personal wealth and status and were enjoying their many mansions and luxury cars that they were able to accumulate by collaborating with the corporations that were jeopardizing the future of this Planet.
As every one is busy fighting over their differences in their ideologies and politics we might soon pass the point of no return when it comes to being able to undo all the damage that has been done to the Environment and reversing the effects of the Climate Change and Global Warming.
As the World is beginning to face so many calamities all at once and as all the problems that have been ignored for so long are coming to roost all at the same time it seems that a perfect storm is brewing in many fronts that if left unchecked is going to produce an existential threat to our species.
This might be the ultimate test for the humankind as to whether it can use its sense of logic and compassion to ascend to a higher level of thinking and existence that can allow it to correct all the problems that are ailing the Humanity and our Home Planet or whether it will continue on the same path and surrender to the forces of the status quo that are going to take everyone on a path to extinction.
Climate change and Global Warming can no longer be treated as an abstract idea that we can continue debating about since time is running out as casualties and damage to the human habitat and the Environment are piling up. This might be our last chance to do something about these problems before we pass the point of no return.
We need to use all our ingenuity and technological abilities to find a balance between having a healthy Economy and a healthy Planet (which includes the Environment and all its living things and their habitats). As I have been saying all along we all have to find common grounds over the Universal values and principles that are derived through logic and compassion and try to get in to a new kind of mindset that can help us become a Force For Good that is going to be worthy of being in charge of the future and destiny of the World.
This is what I had said on page 10 of this thread:
Quote: The main problem that we have with the World now is that 150 years ago at the beginning of the Industrialization age there was no one with the vision and foresight that could have helped to set things on the right track and so human activity, growth, and production have gone rampant and have evolved to become a burden on this planet to the point that many companies which could have normally been considered to be serving humanity by creating a more comfortable, convenient, and happy life for everyone are now have become the instrument of destruction and death for this planet. But if we are going to put this World on a diet to get it back in shape we have to be careful that we don't starve the good part of capitalism which is holding the economy together, because a total economical collapse can be as devastating and harmful to the future of humanity as would global warming and the other environmental issues that are putting this planet at jeopardy. /Quote
We all think too linearly about most things when it comes to creating options, solutions, myself included. It's the way of things, the way we learned. If you want to take offense instead of checking into it so you can improve your potential for viable options and solutions beyond the usual, that's your choice.
No, the problem is more universal than just the US. Includes Canada, as well.
As for trees, I never got into planting them. Instead I focused on saving them, while going through university and for a brief time after.
The Environment is getting devastated and people are dying as we speak, best that you took your focus off of me and others here and came up with some solutions to the problems at hand.
What do you (or anyone else for that matter) propose to be done about the Climate Change and all the damage that is being done to the Environment both on the short term and the long term basis.
I worked and paid my way through university in Canada partly by planting trees during the summer. Now I own and manage a solar farm and use sound environmental practices that I learned from First Nations, through education and from my forestry experience having lived in Finland.
Agreed, the Canadian education system is fair, but we are blessed with nature and a low population density. The point is, regarding forest management, we have been learning from Finland who have consistently topped the charts in education as well:
New ideas are always welcome, but we don't need to prove stats to get our hands dirty...just a willingness to put best practises into action.
With regard to the Amazon rainforest and other countries like Madagascar, who practise slash and burn, clearing vast forest lands to make room for cattle - the archaic practice and resultant methane release reverses any gains made in CO2 reduction.
Demand for beef products must be balanced by environmental protection, not only by individuals, but also requires action by governments including Canada:
New data from Brazil's own space agency show the fire devastation in the rainforest is even worse this year than in 2019, when 30 per cent more of the forest was destroyed compared with the year before.
The Amazon rainforest is one of the most critical habitats in the world, producing as much as one-fifth of the world's oxygen and storing carbon dioxide that would otherwise cause massive increases to global warming.
Fick said Greenpeace would spend Saturday, a global day of action to protect rainforests, reaching out to multiple Canadian leaders and urging them to back away from further trade with Brazil.
"What is happening in Brazil is at a crisis level and it will have global impacts in terms of what happens in the Amazon," she said. "The urgency and the scale of what we have, what the potential negative impact would have, of this trade deal are just especially striking."
On the topic of methane, I have also found a dietary source for cattle which, when ingested, arrests the methane release by protozoa in the first stomach of bovine, thereby reducing greenhouse gasses. I proposed the idea to agricultural scientists at Dalhousie University, who are currently studying it's efficacy in application. I don't expect any accolades, other than helping to preserve the planet for future generations - if one person can do something, anything, just imagine what we as a society could do collectively.
An article I came across today you might find interesting, that also brings up cow gas:
Forget planting trees: This company is making carbon offsets by putting seaweed on the ocean floor
Good article, thanks for sharing. We often neglect the ocean's capacity to absorb co2.
It was this type of study that originally brought me to Europe back in the early 90's, the European Union had just formed and they encouraged companies from abroad to set up offices. At the time, I had a partnership in Can-Am Ocean Technologies, we developed small robotic research platforms to collect samples, take temperature, acidity, salinity measurements and digital photography at varying depths and to investigate environmental impact on the Continental shelves, coastal estuaries and waterways. We were on the "cutting edge" of science and exploration at the time, it was a good gig. We were featured alongside the Mars Rover in scientific circles as some of the earliest underwater digital images were transferred across the Atlantic Ocean via the Internet. However as I mentioned earlier, even though our findings were scientifically sound, at the time they were met with resistance. Governments chose to ignore findings, yet might be more "politically correct" today. I try to stay on top of current research and to keep an open mind to potential solutions to environmental issues, and possible ways I can help, esp. now that more people are willing to accept facts, but I leave the future in the hands of the next generation to carry the torch.
Ocean acidification is one aspect of global climate change. Anything we do to mitigate climate change today will benefit the future of the ocean as well. Over the last decade, there has been much focus in the ocean science community on studying the potential impacts of ocean acidification.
Our changing ocean
Estimates of future carbon dioxide levels, based on business-as-usual emission scenarios, indicate that by the end of this century the surface waters of the ocean could have a pH around 7.8 The last time the ocean pH was this low was during the middle Miocene, 14-17 million years ago. The Earth was several degrees warmer and a major extinction event was occurring.
I didn't see mention the term '3D ocean farms' in the parts I read of your noaa.gov link, but some of what I read reminded me of it. If you haven't come across it, try googling the term.
I'll send you a website link in a bit, once the website is more complete - something I've been working on. See if you might be interested in playing around at times with innovating, innovation that's more radical than the usual.
The most immediate threat that this Planet is facing along side the intensified Fires, Storms, and Pollution is the melting of the Ice Caps.
This is what I had said on page 3 of this thread:
Quote: As we see the ice caps and glaciers start receding on the surface gradually the more alarming effect is going to be what we can’t see as far as the fact that the ice is losing its structure from deep within which is going to cause the melting to accelerate once it goes beyond a certain point, so we might have even less time than we originally thought before the low lying coastal areas and islands around the World start going under water because of the rising oceans. The forced migrations that are going to take place due to the loss of so much habitat will certainly have an adverse effect on the global economy and can cause animosities and conflicts all around the World. /Quote
^ agreed! That is what inspired me to get started down the path to understanding exactly what the heck is going on. Coming from the far north, I have seen first-hand how Climate Change has affected indicator species (polar bear populations) and Arctic biomes. Of course, media has exposed the plight of these noble creatures but it is not until one witness for oneself, or depends on living off-the-land for survival that the message really hits home. The nasty stuff that is happening to the planet can no longer be ignored.
I had to look up the term, sweet! 3D farming definitely has potential promise for hydroculture. I'm sure we'll make it work when the necessity arises. I grow hydroponically as well. In fact, that is one of my pet projects - and not just for kind herb. lol. Kinda reminds me of the ancient hanging gardens of Babylon.
The necessity seems to be here. Maybe it just needs for someone/s to turn the solution into more of a no-brainer to adopt on a larger scale.
The source pages for this seem to be gone, but a couple of things the pioneer of 3D farming was claiming as to what it could do, that I posted elsewhere at one time: "Smith’s website claims that 3D ocean farms totaling an area half the size of Maine would provide enough biofuel to replace all of the oil used in the U.S. Additionally, 3D ocean farms totaling an area the size of Washington State would be able to feed the world."
A few other benefit claims Smith's latest website makes: https://www.greenwave.org/our-model
Because of the acceleration in the melting of the ice caps and all the cold water that is now beginning to mix into the oceans it is possible that the temperature of the oceans will drop and that they will temporarily become cooler, but if all the factors that have been contributing to the Global Warming still stay in effect it wouldn't take long before the oceans start to warm up again.
Perhaps this Planet has a built in mechanism that can help it correct the effects of the Climate Change on its own, but if we miss this last window of opportunity and keep contributing to the Global Warming we might never get a chance to save our Home Planet again. This is why that we need to take immediate and decisive actions right now before this window of opportunity for our Home Planet to be able to heal itself closes.
Unfortunately some people see the receding ice caps as an opportunity instead of a catastrophe and are already in the process of taking advantage of the natural resources that are becoming easier for them to get to and mine for.
The biggest worry that I see is that the politics that control the people's mindsets both on the Right and the Left of the spectrum are not going to allow this Planet to heal itself and that things will be pushed beyond the point of no return while everyone is still busy debating whether the Global Warming and the problems with the Environment even exist or not.
Unfortunately those on the Right see the whole concept of the Global Warming and the issues concerning the Environment as an obstacle in their way of establishing and maintaining economical supremacy for their base. And those on the Left even though they show a little more concern about the Environment, but the past 50 years has proven that they are unwilling or unable to take the kind of decisive and necessary actions that are needed to make a real difference in solving the problems that have gripped our Home Planet as those at the top have been dancing around these issues for years now while having surrendered to the wishes and interests of the big corporations in order to maintain their own personal wealth and status.
But regardless of what has been going on so far, it's imperative that everyone understands that doing business as usual is going to make us miss this last opportunity to save our Home Planet and that soon we won't be able to do anything about the issues at hand even if everyone agreed on what to do and became united.
One of the problems associated with the melting icecap is diluting fresh water into saline. The global conveyor belt is responsible for the recycling of nutrient and co2 in the ocean. If the engine which drives the oceans currents slows down and splits, or stops altogether, the result will be increased global warming followed by increased cloud cover therefore resulting in what is known as a nuclear winter or ice age.
Everyone who used to have one of those old fashioned refrigerators in their kitchen that needed to be defrosted manually can remember that when you turned the frig off it took a long time for the ice that had accumulated in there to start melting, but after a certain time had elapsed the melting would accelerate as the ice would start to lose its structure from within.
The point is that we are now past the stage of the waiting time and have entered the stage of the acceleration in the melting of the ice caps which is going to surprise even the scientists and the experts by the speed that it is going to progress in the next 5 years.
The ocean temperature and the overall Climate might go through a few ups and downs as this Planet adjusts to the new changes in the Environment, but if people continue doing the same things that have contributed to the Global Warming this far then our Planet will start to go past the point of no return much sooner than everyone is anticipating.
People can do all the tests and research that they want about the effects of the Global Warming on the oceans and the Environment and even though it would be nice to see the fluctuations in the acidity levels and temperatures of the oceans as time goes by,
But if no concrete and decisive actions are taken immediately to address the big picture when it comes to saving our Home Planet then all these research and conferences that we see being done around the World are going to be useless because we don't have another 50 years to dance around the issues at hand, things are going to start changing for the worse very fast as we are already witnessing with the more catastrophic Fires, Storms, and Floodings that are happening in every corner of our Home Planet.
Dear America, we too have seen red skies in Australia and we can tell you what happens next
We too have seen the orange afternoon sky, and felt the soft, strange sensation of soot falling like rain, and watched the edges of the curtains glow in an amber haze long after nightfall.
We too have purchased masks and air filters, and had windless days where it’s been hard to breathe, and inhaled smoke from thousands of kilometres away and wondered if we should be worried about a wheeze that wasn’t there before.
We too have had our social media feeds clogged with unusually anti-inspirational and frightening content: an eye-of-Sauron sky, tops of trees ablaze, the juxtaposition (some so surreal they look like bad Photoshop) of a wedding party, a golf tournament, a crowded beach with an epic fire raging in the background.
Unfortunately it seems like that the whole World is in a trance when it comes to ignoring what the Humanity and this Planet are headed for in the near future.
Everyone wants to keep doing business as usual and are busy accumulating more wealth and power while trying to bring each other down with total disregard as to the fact that the ship that they are on is sinking. This planet has been pushed beyond its capacity to cope with all the human activity that has been contributing to the Global Warming and all the Environmental damage that now seem to be accelerating even faster as we speak.
It's time to wake up!
Before things start to deteriorate even further and push the World beyond the point of no return, not only when it comes to the Environmental issues, but also with all the social, economical, and technological factors that are going to effect the future of Humanity and our Home Planet in a negative way.
As I have been saying all along we need to find common grounds over the Universal values and principles that are derived through logic and compassion and ascend to a higher level of thinking and existence that can give us the ability to correct all the mistakes of the past and find our way to a better future.
(This will be my last comment for a while)
A Netflix movie worth watching IMO, provides a layman's explanation to biosequestration and land recovery if we chose to make it happen. Also a takeaway, as science explains, another 60 more harvests before we reach the end. Unless we act soon...
Africa and South America look concerning.
^ Indeed! These reqions are employing old methods of slash and burn agriculture, clearing land mostly for monocroppping. The archaic practice of cutting down of natural forests & burning which releases the carbon into the atmosphere does not help carbon remain in the soil where it can be used by plants. With current agricultural practices in some of the poorer countries, soil erosion and , desertification and carbon denudation is problematic for long-term sustainability. The use of GMO's, artificial fertilizers and pesticides, including the machinery, fossil fuels, packaging, processing and shipping is another indirect impact.
@Cal2 mentioned 3D agriculture which uses the oceans to produce crops. This may be one solution, especially the use of seaweed as fertilizer. Seaweed can supplement the soil and be added to livestock.
Tilling the soil in spring also releases carbon from the soil and reduces the diversity of soil organisms. Having a fallow period, maybe 1 out of every 4 years, allows the soil to rejuvenate. There are a number of practices we currently employ that directly contribute, but the problem also rests with societies intake and demand, overpopulation, Global economy and National policies etc. that have a large indirect impact. There is much to be learned and fortunately, I believe there are solutions as discussed in the video I cited above.
A new documentary - David Attenboroug's, A Life on Our Planet
He explains how we may be at the end of an evolutionary cycle, our Garden of Eden, undone by our own intelligence. Are we smart enough to undo our undoing? Catch it on Netflix...
No one cares Amazon burning burning ground.
“California fires” is where at. this “New” news.
In all seriousness...
Million acres; by one fire; “gigafire” they call it.
Over 4M total acres burnt in California.
Lol maybe time for a new California thread?
California fires’ have surpassed Amazon one.
Pray for everyone’s safety; is the world ending
Separate names with a comma.