Escrow.com is now a waste of time for domainers

[PAKB]

On 4th of january My buyer and i (seller) Reached an agreement for a domain name at 1550$ , Buyer paid on 5th of january , Now escrow.com says me that they do not support payments for Pakistan , why didn't they mention it while i was agreeing to An agreement as they already got My address which belongs to Pakistan ?

Buyer has already paid on 5th of January and asking me to push domain to his account while escrow is still sending me emails to add bank account details from other country than Pakistan, How is this possible ?

@Escrow.com Support You guys Have my address which belongs to Pakistan then why did you waste my buyer and my time?

 

[Ategy]

Escrow.com handles a much larger volume of transactions than the other smaller payment providers.
Some issues are going to happen.
It is similar to why GoDaddy seems like they have a lot of issues. With more market share, you will see more issues.

I understand what you're saying there .. and to some degree you need to take some of the complaints with a grain of slat for that reason. But at the same time you expect silly little oversights and loopholes like this one to have been closed YEARS ago.

That being said, although I've done a few transactions with Escrow.com, I'm not an expert, and being in Canada, I haven't really had any issues. BUT .. I am an expert when it comes to GoDaddy, and their bugs/glitches and loopholes are just off the scale ridiculously bad.

In the end though, "reputation" and going with a "recognisable registrar" (essentially GoDaddy) is pretty much the only reason to go with Escrow.com these days for instant sales. With @Rob Monster's Epik offering NamePros members the possibility of virtually free escrow services it's not about promoting them, they (or any other registrar that offers the same deal) are simply the better choice because they are a registrar and have the ability to exchange the money and domain at the same time and thus actually nullify the need for traditional escrow.

In fact, it's the loophole where if you don't use Escrow.com concierge service and a buyer goes dark after receiving their domain that makes using a registrar instant money<>domain transfer actually MORE secure then a non-registrar escrow like Escrow.com.


That's not to say Escrow doesn't try to go the extra mile to fix such issues (in my few instances needing help at Escrow.com I've always had great service) .. but if they held the domain as a registrar, then it couldn't be a problem to begin with.


In the end it's great that we have more and more options and tools available to us. In most cases if you've had a few interactions with your buyer, you probably already have a feel what route to push to close the sale. I generally give my buyers a few options depending on where the domain is hosted. If they seem price conscious then I'll suggest Epik .. or if they seem they they are rigid and likely have an existing protocol, then I'll still mention Epik, but communicate as if the assumption is they will choose Escrow.com.

That being said, at this point because of the need for the buyer to manually confirm the receipt of the domain transfer, I'll only use Escrow.com if the buyer also pays the concierge service .. which is exactly double their usual fees and can add up quickly for the buyer.


Here's a fun bit of information, one of my higher 4-figure sales this year was a domain at Epik. I offered the buyer to go through Epik, but they wanted to go through Escrow.com. I agreed but only with concierge service so my side would be guaranteed after payment. After that I simply transfered the domain to Escrow's concierge account at Epik .. lol. The buyer paid all those fees for pretty much nothing and got the domain later and more expensive than they otherwise would have if they would have gone through Epik. On top of that, it was probably the most amazing sale of 2019, not because of the amount, but because of the specific domain and buyer and the negotiations!

 

[Lox]

@Rob Monster is Epik really just 350K domains in total?

Q4 Y19
E
500k (+) (regs growing fast / skyrocketing )
Transfers gained vs lost ratio: 20 : 0.8
82% .com

Q4 Y19
GD (including resellers/affiliates)
61m (-) (regs drastically slowing down )
Transfers gained vs lost ratio: 2 : 1.1
79% .com

 

[JB Lions]

Yup.

but People are hesitant to change their old ways

Good luck, wish you success, completing transaction!

Samer

Yep, people work each other for discounts but some will still choose another registrar if they can get domains cheaper.

https://www.namepros.com/threads/resolved-name-com-fixed-issue.1170398/

-----------------------
So for Epik, just to clear it up.

I have a domain at GoDaddy. A buyer wants the domain at their favorite registrar, which is not GoDaddy or Epik.

Can I use Epik Escrow for this transaction?

@Rob Monster

 

[Rob Monster]

@Rob Monster is Epik really just 350K domains in total?

About 1.2 million domains under management and 624,394 domains on the Epik registrar. We are growing pretty fast now.

That being said, registrar size was never the goal. I would rather be a registrar with 1 million "keep" domains than 3 million domains, most of which is bulk-buy names dropped after a year.

I am happy to explain the logic if anyone is interested but our focus is on empowering the domain economy in the aggregate, and we happily work with any registrar.

There are a lot of moving parts to Epik, of which escrow and marketplace are certainly in the core. However, there are many other parts, and these are increasingly interoperable. Domain finance will remain core.

 

[Ategy]

So for Epik, just to clear it up.
I have a domain at GoDaddy. A buyer wants the domain at their favorite registrar, which is not GoDaddy or Epik.
Can I use Epik Escrow for this transaction?

@JB Lions .. not that I'm aware of, but you certainly could transfer the domain to Epik and the buyer could transfer it out.

I *think* that we're now allowed to have lockless transfers and pushes .. so in theory unless the domain isn't currently locked it could be done.

Kinda sucks for Epik to do all that work for nothing, *BUT* if you're an existing client of theirs and it's a one-time thing, then I'm pretty sure @Rob Monster would likely help you out if you ask nicely. Plus there's always the hope that the buyer stays at Epik after the sale (probably the biggest reason to do it.


The whole reason why registrar level money<>domain instant transfers is a great option for both sides (I can't even call it "escrow", because this process actually removes the need for escrow), is because the domain is specifically at Epik, so they can transfer money<>domain as soon as the funds are secured. There's no risk to either party from the other party.

 

[bmugford]

@JB Lions .. not that I'm aware of, but you certainly could transfer the domain to Epik and the buyer could transfer it out.

I *think* that we're now allowed to have lockless transfers and pushes .. so in theory unless the domain isn't currently locked it could be done.

I don't think that is the case. I believe when a domain is initially registered or after a transfer between registrars there is still a ICANN mandated (60) day lock.

I believe what you are referring to is a change of registrant -

60-Day Lock After Change of Registrant

After 1 December 2016, registrars must impose a lock that will prevent any transfer to another registrar for sixty (60) days following a change to a registrant's information. Registrars may (but are not required to) allow registrants to opt out of the 60-day lock prior to the change of registrant request.

 

[JB Lions]

@JB Lions .. not that I'm aware of, but you certainly could transfer the domain to Epik and the buyer could transfer it out.

Exactly, not an Escrow, no matter how many times you guys repeat it. Marketplace transaction.

I can't use something like this if I have to force a buyer to a registrar they don't want to go. That could kill a sale. I can use Escrow.com. I can use Sedo External Escrow, something on my to do list this year. I've had many regular sales thru Sedo, never tried the External Escrow.

Accredited registrar, but when it comes to Escrow, all of a sudden, who cares about being accredited.

I'm sure they have great Marketplace transactions from what I've read and much cheaper than GoDaddy Marketplace transactions it looks like.

 

[Rob Monster]

Yep, people work each other for discounts but some will still choose another registrar if they can get domains cheaper.

https://www.namepros.com/threads/resolved-name-com-fixed-issue.1170398/

-----------------------
So for Epik, just to clear it up.

I have a domain at GoDaddy. A buyer wants the domain at their favorite registrar, which is not GoDaddy or Epik.

Can I use Epik Escrow for this transaction?

@Rob Monster

As a general rule, the domain should come to Epik. If the buyer desires to house the domain at another registrar, we'll waive (opt out) the 60-day transfer lock in almost every case. That happens and that is fine.

In some cases, where the domain cannot move registrars, where the perceived risk is zero, and where there are no regulatory compliance limitations, we can close a transaction without passing through Epik registrar.

 

[bmugford]

@JB LionsThe whole reason why registrar level money<>domain instant transfers is a great option for both sides (I can't even call it "escrow", because this process actually removes the need for escrow), is because the domain is specifically at Epik, so they can transfer money<>domain as soon as the funds are secured. There's no risk to either party from the other party.

So they let's take the case earlier which was brought up related to Escrow.com.
A buyer buys a domain which turns out to be stolen, and is seized months later.

Let's say the same thing happens at Epik.

Because essentially the same thing could happen were a domain is transferred, payment is released, then down the road it turns out it was stolen.

Who takes the loss?

Brad

 

[Ategy]

I don't think that is the case. I believe when a domain is registered or after a transfer between registrars there is still a ICANN mandated (60) day lock.

Yeah .. I was rather sure for pushes .. but I thought there was another change last year that allowed the lock to be off for transfers? I've never tried or looked for it (and would generally not recommend anyone do that unless the payment was 200% closed and assured).

Exactly, not an Escrow, no matter how many times you guys repeat it.

Well .. if you already have your domain at Epik then yes it is an "escrow".

@epik isn't pushing or promoting what they're doing as an escrow for any registrar, there is no specific definition of "escrow" that stipulates a possibility for both sides to be in any location. Look at Escrow.com, they couldn't help @PAKB in Pakistan, so if you ask anyone in Pakistan without an international bank account, Escrow.com is NOT an escrow service! lol

I do understand what you're trying to say though .. but I don't think specifc geo or registrar restrictions necessarily makes what would otherwise be an escrow service no longer an escrow service.

On top of that, what Epik does is not escrow, it does everything involved in a single-payment escrow transaction in zero time .. so there effectively is no real "holding" .. and thus it actually removes the need for escrow. To insist on not calling it "escrow" is merely semantics, as it does everything expected from an escrow service in an even more secure way.

 

[Rob Monster]

So they let's take the case earlier which was brought up related to Escrow.com.
A buyer buys a domain which turns out to be stolen, and is seized months later.

Let's say the same thing happens at Epik.

Because essentially the same thing could happen were a domain is transferred, payment is released, then down the road it turns out it was stolen.

Who takes the loss?

Brad

Brad,

The point you raise is exactly the reason why Epik has the overwhelming advantage as an accredited registrar. We can not only take registrar control over the domain name but we also have forensic competency in understanding the domain pedigree.

This is the essence of what is driving the upcoming launch of DNProtect.com, which will do domain risk scoring (like a credit score) but also provide insurance against future domain loss. That project is nearing completion now and I think will be quite popular, especially the free risk scoring tools.

If we think a transaction has some dodgy pedigree, odds are good we will not be taking on that transaction, or at least it will be a slow process. If someone wanted to pull some domain scam, Epik would be a really bad place to do it because (1) we will probably catch it, and then (2) expose the perpetrator.

Like probably most marketplaces, we have been the victim of occasional payment fraud. However, again, that is rare, and as Epik has become more popular and as my personal network has grown, I think people who want to scam domainers have rightly concluded that scamming Epik would be a really bad idea.

The industry is making progress in rooting out malefactors. Yes, it still happens, but it is increasingly rare in part because of the profound efficiency with which industry connectors on boards like NamePros can propagate information as needed. Also the registrar CEOs do have a lot of direct contact when needed.

For the scenario of us getting scammed in some material way, we do maintain some sizable insurance policies with top underwriters in order to hedge against catastrophic loss, including for the scenarios of error or omission. That said, we have yet to submit a claim. We also have yet to lose a domain.

If a scammer is dumb enough to bring a stolen domain to Epik escrow, chances are they will lose their domain and any KYC that we collected on that individual will be used in any way we see fit, including handling the info to local legal authorities in the growing number of jurisdictions where we have staff.

Yes, Epik is the safest place to clear a domain transaction. That much should be obvious even to the most hardened skeptic.

Thanks
Rob

 

[Ategy]

A buyer buys a domain which turns out to be stolen, and is seized months later.
Let's say the same thing happens at Epik.
Because essentially the same thing could happen were a domain is transferred, payment is released, then down the road it turns out it was stolen.
Who takes the loss?

I'll 100% admit I never specifically dug deep into it since almost all my domains have been acquired through expired auctions/closeouts.

But as far as I know Escrow doesn't offer anything extra in terms of protection after the exchange has been made? If they do, then as a buyer, going through Escrow.com I suppose could justify the increased fees for certain domains. But as far as I know, both in the case where Escrow or a registrar was used, it becomes a legal issue. The original owner would try to seize the domain and the seller would need to in turn also seize what they paid the original seller and pay back the buyer who no longer has the domain.

It's a bad situation either way, but I don't see any particular advantage with going via Escrow.com? Although if you're mentioning it, then surely I'm missing something. Do the fees include two-way insurance after a transaction has been closed? Because as the seller, I don't see how it's possible I don't have to pay the buyer either way if the domain has been proven to be stolen.

 

[bmugford]

Brad,

The point you raise is exactly the reason why Epik has the overwhelming advantage as an accredited registrar. We can not only take registrar control over the domain name but we also have forensic competency in understanding the domain pedigree.

This is the essence of what is driving the upcoming launch of DNProtect.com, which will do domain risk scoring (like a credit score) but also provide insurance against future domain loss. That project is nearing completion now and I think will be quite popular, especially the free risk scoring tools.

If we think a transaction has some dodgy pedigree, odds are good we will not be taking on that transaction, or at least it will be a slow process. If someone wanted to pull some domain scam, Epik would be a really bad place to do it because (1) we will probably catch it, and then (2) expose the perpetrator.

Like probably most marketplaces, we have been the victim of occasional payment fraud. However, again, that is rare, and as Epik has become more popular and as my personal network has grown, I think people who want to scam have domainers rightly concluded that scamming Epik would be a really bad idea.

The industry is making progress in rooting out malefactors. Yes, it still happens, but it is increasingly rare in part because of the profound efficiency with which industry connectors on board like NamePros can propagate information as needed. Also the registrar CEOs do have a lot of direct contact when needed.

For the scenario of us getting scammed in some material way, we do maintain some sizable insurance policies with top underwriters in order to hedge against catastrophic loss, including for the scenarios of error or omission. That said, we have yet to submit a claim. We also have yet to lose a domain.

If a scammer is dumb enough to bring a stolen domain to Epik escrow, chances are they will lose their domain and any KYC that we collected on that individual will be used in any way we see fit, including handling the info to local legal authorities in the growing number of jurisdictions where we have staff.

Yes, Epik is the safest place to clear a domain transaction. That much should be obvious even to the most hardened skeptic.

Thanks
Rob

Fair enough, but can you give me a direct answer?

If for some reason the scenario I mentioned did play out, despite the fraud check and prevention measures, who is on the hook for that loss?

Brad

 

[bmugford]

It's a bad situation either way, but I don't see any particular advantage with going via Escrow.com? Although if you're mentioning it, then surely I'm missing something. Do the fees include two-way insurance after a transaction has been closed? Because as the seller, I don't see how it's possible I don't have to pay the buyer buy either way if the domain has been proven to be stolen.

I agree. I was just making the point that the same exact thing could happen at a registrar where the domain is and payment takes place. It was in response to you saying there was no risk.

There is always some risk. I suggest people do their own due diligence as much as possible.

Brad

 

[Rob Monster]

Fair enough, but can you give me a direct answer?

If for some reason the scenario I mentioned did play out, despite the fraud check and prevention measures, who is on the hook for that loss?

Brad

We have absorbed the financial loss in the rare cases where we got played by a scammer and were unable to unwind the transaction in time.

We have even done this for self-service marketplace transactions, and even ate the loss on multiple Sedo MLS transactions which turned out to be bogus.

We are smarter now, but the precedent is that we ate it.

 

[Ategy]

I agree. I was just making the point that the same exact thing could happen at a registrar where the domain is and payment takes place. It was in response to you saying there was no risk. ... There is always some risk. ...

@bmugford .. Ah yeah .. Sorry, because this is a discussion about traditional escrow (like Escrow.com) vs instant money<>domain registrar transactions (like Epik.com), then what I really meant is that there's no added risk and it's at least as secure (actually more in some ways and equal in others like with what you're talking about).

In fairness I don't think there's much point in bringing issues outside the scope of what is actually protected by a traditional escrow into this discussion about comparing the two. But just to be clear for the newcomers out there .. yes 100% .. there's always risk in every domain transaction if (1) the history of the domain, and (2) source of the funding, aren't both guaranteed.

The bottom line is that if you're not an Epik client, or don't want your domains there for any number of reasons (maybe you enjoy waiting 10,000 years for transfer codes at NetworkSolutions perhaps? lol). Nor are at another registrar that offers the same thing. Then unfortunately it's not really something you can use. However if you are at Epik or a registrar that offers it, then it's an extra tool you can use to help close a sale in a fashion that's both more secure to you as the seller (because you don't need to wait for manual confirmation) and cheaper for the buyer.

 

[Recons.Com]

About 1.2 million domains under management and 624,394 domains on the Epik registrar. We are growing pretty fast now.

That being said, registrar size was never the goal. I would rather be a registrar with 1 million "keep" domains than 3 million domains, most of which is bulk-buy names dropped after a year.

I am happy to explain the logic if anyone is interested but our focus is on empowering the domain economy in the aggregate, and we happily work with any registrar.

There are a lot of moving parts to Epik, of which escrow and marketplace are certainly in the core. However, there are many other parts, and these are increasingly interoperable. Domain finance will remain core.

Thank you for the detailed response. Yeah, thought 350k was way too low. I agree that just hunting the big numbers is a dumb pr stunt.

What are the under management names?

 

[MapleDots]

Seriously, I can't understand all this escrow stuff for domains under 5 to 10k.

Get a merchant account, process on a credit card and be done with it.

I ask for 1/2 up front, I issue a bill of sale saying 1/2 due, I charge the first half through. The client gets the domain and I process the second payment when the client has it in his account.

It's all pretty easy if you try it

 

[Rob Monster]

Thank you for the detailed response. Yeah, thought 350k was way too low. I agree that just hunting the big numbers is a dumb pr stunt.

What are the under management names?

Under management includes folks who use us for DNS or SSL landers but have not transferred to Epik registrar yet -- often it is a 2 step process.

As for growth-at-all-costs, some perspective there:

I think the registrars who chase the $5 .com Verisign unit rebate business all day long are being set up for the gotcha nose-bleed when those crap names come up for auto-renew a year later.

Alpnames almost certainly went out of business because they got squeezed on auto-renewals. Some blogs covered it:

https://www.domainpulse.com/2019/03...erminates-registrar-days-after-going-offline/

It is "pig in the python" stuff and if it happens with .COM you are totally screwed because no registrar can afford to not be accredited for .COM.

I have a theory on who the next victim of "get big or go broke" will be but I will keep that to myself.

 

[biggie]

Hi

I think this thread is pretty much like the other
where both Op's blamed or put fault on Escrow.com, because they where from a country that Escrow.com does not support

escrow.com has a list of countries they don't support on their website
so, had either of them read the TOS and list prior to, then maybe we wouldn't always have to debate about Escrow.com versus some other payment platform.

those who use escrow.com will continue to do so and those who don't, will find another means.

the one thing you can read out of both threads though, is that the "buyers" preferred or wanted to use Escrow.com
that brand, that term, that pre-instilled confidence, can't be diluted in a few posts of comparison or some in opposition.

just saying....

imo….

 

[Recons.Com]

Hi

I think this thread is pretty much like the other
where both Op's blamed or put fault on Escrow.com, because they where from a country that Escrow.com does not support

escrow.com has a list of countries they don't support on their website
so, had either of them read the TOS and list prior to, then maybe we wouldn't always have to debate about Escrow.com versus some other payment platform.

those who use escrow.com will continue to do so and those who don't, will find another means.

the one thing you can read out of both threads though, is that the "buyers" preferred or wanted to use Escrow.com
that brand, that term, that pre-instilled confidence, can't be diluted in a few posts of comparison or some in opposition.

just saying....

imo….

I can see OP's angle here too. We are 20 years into 21st century. It takes under 1 hour of coding to ensure that escrow cannot start if a country not in the list is chosen. No need to collect the money and then inform that the transaction cannot be done.

Escrow.com is my last option nowadays, if a buyer were absolutely adamant that they want to deal via them.

 

[Ategy]

Seriously, I can't understand all this escrow stuff for domains under 5 to 10k. ... Get a merchant account, process on a credit card and be done with it. .. I ask for 1/2 up front, I issue a bill of sale saying 1/2 due, I charge the first half through. The client gets the domain and I process the second payment when the client has it in his account.

@MapleDots .. it's because most of us who started domaining within the last couple of years are not domain all-star ballers yet! lol

Seriously though. What you're talking about would involve:

- Taking on 50% risk for no reason
- Going through the pain of setting up a merchant account
- Needing to bother with account receivables

There most certainly are cases where I'm fine not going through Escrow if I can really trust a buyer and the amount isn't too big. But why?

escrow.com has a list of countries they don't support on their website ... so, had either of them read the TOS and list prior to, then maybe we wouldn't always have to debate about Escrow.com versus some other payment platform.

You certainly are not incorrect there. But what would it take for Escrow.com to add a note for people not in supported countries after they register warning them that they need to have a bank account in a different country. It just seems by not having a level above "TOS awareness" that they are pretty much inviting situations like this. For a company that wants to be about following rules, security and service, overlooking a simple common-sense logic-check like that tells me that they they aren't as focused on such things as they'd have you think. (On a brighter note .. at least they are anywhere near as bad as GoDaddy on that front .. lol)

 

[Recons.Com]

Seriously, I can't understand all this escrow stuff for domains under 5 to 10k.

Get a merchant account, process on a credit card and be done with it.

I ask for 1/2 up front, I issue a bill of sale saying 1/2 due, I charge the first half through. The client gets the domain and I process the second payment when the client has it in his account.

It's all pretty easy if you try it

You don't even need a merchant account in the beginning. I have a merchant account, but for now have set up Paypal gateway in my marketplace, once the volume is sufficient to try to save on 3% fee, then I will switch to the merchant account gateway.

 

[tonyk2000]

About 1.2 million domains under management and 624,394 domains on the Epik registrar

Congratulations, Rob This is a big change from September (the last available ICANN registry report) where it shows 350,536 domains in .com (most popular extension anyway). Epik must have gained a lot in Q4 2019. As a matter of curiosity, can you share who are most frequently losing registrars (the sources of incoming transfer-ins) in favor of Epik?

Like probably most marketplaces, we have been the victim of occasional payment fraud.

Even when Escrow .com were usable, they by some reason did not offer "Verified by Visa" or "Mastercard secure code" verification support for Visa/MC-funded purchases. While this extra security step is not always offered by U.S.-based CC issuers, it is very popular in EU and other countries. Actually, it helps to eliminate fraud - the transaction confirmed by an extra code (the cardholder will receive sms from the bank, or something similar) simply cannot be charged back. Does Epik offer it, and, if not, are there any plans to?

 

[equity78]

Well I have been lazy in getting an article up on the topic of theft, but I have gathered a lot of info, because I was looking at buying a 3L.com on Sedo but the listing data didn't seem right, seller in Mexico but that was not the registrant host country etc.. So I thought if I pay this $15,000 and then it gets taken down the road by Verisign a registrar or some other entity with the legal rights to do so, am I eating the loss? I started looking at Art and if Sotheby's or Christie's got scammed who ate the loss, they do.

So I emailed Sedo and GoDaddy and both of their replies which I have for the article in detail, basically said Sorry but we are not eating the loss, make sure you do proper due diligence. To me that's garbage, and have spoken to a couple lawyers with the issue of nowhere else can you make a profit (your commission) on stolen goods.

So if I understand @Rob Monster his answer to @bmugford was that if someone somehow pulled off a stolen domain sale on Epik, Epik would eat the loss. That's a big deal in my opinion.