Escrow.com is now a waste of time for domainers

[PAKB]

On 4th of january My buyer and i (seller) Reached an agreement for a domain name at 1550$ , Buyer paid on 5th of january , Now escrow.com says me that they do not support payments for Pakistan , why didn't they mention it while i was agreeing to An agreement as they already got My address which belongs to Pakistan ?

Buyer has already paid on 5th of January and asking me to push domain to his account while escrow is still sending me emails to add bank account details from other country than Pakistan, How is this possible ?

@Escrow.com Support You guys Have my address which belongs to Pakistan then why did you waste my buyer and my time?

 

[PAKB]

The strange thing is i am still able to add bank account in Disbursement option from the country which is not accepted by escrow.

 

[MapleDots]

Who are you saying would lose @MapleDots ?

Quite to the contrary.... I just won a claim on my online store, card was not present, customer ordered items, they were delivered and the customer initiated a chargeback.

I submitted the online contract, terms and proof of delivery. I make all my clients sign for delivery.
The funds were quickly returned to my account.

The client can initiate a charge back but when it is determined there was no fraud and goods were delivered the funds come back, especially when there is a bill of sale and a signed document showing item was delivered.

If all else fails the bill of sale will stand up in court.

Now I will caution any members though....

I do business only in Canada and the USA, and other than one sale to Germany I don't think I have ever sold a domain to a country like India or such. I don't think there is much legal recourse if a sale fails to a similar country. That is why even Escrow and such have limits dealing within those countries.

 

[Recons.Com]

@equity78 @Recons.Com In all fairness, I don't see how an escrow company could know until they receive the payment. I guess they could monitor the location of the IP address of the user when they create an account / login and then issue a warning to the buyer and seller. Also, they could ask for the user's country during the account creation process. I assume Escrow.com does this.

But if there's a multinational company or someone with a trusted associate abroad, the buyer/negotiator could get the associate to wire the money from a bank account in a foreign country not on the restricted list. For example, a Pakistani could send money to a friend in India who then sends the payment to Escrow. If I had a buyer in Pakistan, I would like for them to at least have this option.

Even when Escrow received the payment, they would have to be able to check transaction details for country of origin. If someone wired money to my personal checking account, that information wouldn't be readily available, though I could inquire with the bank for specifics. Escrow.com apparently does this or else the OP's transaction wouldn't have been cancelled.

OP stated that they collected this info about him when setting the transaction and he clearly stated that he is in Pakistan. So that is how they knew.

And even in case of multinational or trusted associates, all it takes is to ask for the country where the recipient intends to receive money in. Not a rocket science at all.

If selected country xyz is in the banned list, then show error message. There! The Einstein algorithm for them.

 

[xynames]

Again, mapledots is talking about a dispute such as over quality of merchandise , claim of non receipt etc. MapleDots would lose the chargeback if the purchaser claimed fraud - unauthorized transaction - in a card not present transaction especially for delivery of virtual goods.

Anyway let him figure it out the hard way someday. I’d never use my merchant account (I have two different ones, besides PayPal, Payoneer, transferwise and some others) to receive payment on domain sales or any kind of virtual item including service, especially from someone outside the US, other than maybe for small dollar transactions. That would be foolhardy. You’d probably be better off using PayPal even PP has more protections in place for these types of virtual transactions than a regular merchant account.

This is part of what we pay escrow.com for - to remove the risk of payment verification from us.

 

[equity78]

Quite to the contrary.... I just won a claim on my online store, card was not present, customer ordered items, they were delivered and the customer initiated a chargeback.

I submitted the online contract, terms and proof of delivery. I make all my clients sign for delivery.
The funds were quickly returned to my account.

The client can initiate a charge back but when it is determined there was no fraud and goods were delivered the funds come back, especially when there is a bill of sale and a signed document showing item was delivered.

If all else fails the bill of sale will stand up in court.

Now I will caution any members though....

I do business only in Canada and the USA, and other than one sale to Germany I don't think I have ever sold a domain to a country like India or such. I don't think there is much legal recourse if a sale fails to a similar country. That is why even Escrow and such have limits dealing within those countries.

Thanks for the info I wasn't sure who xy said would lose but he see he did explain on what type of transaction would get a chargeback.

This is part of what we pay escrow.com for - to remove the risk of payment verification from us.

You got a good and it saves on commissions.

 

[equity78]

Again, mapledots is talking about a dispute such as over quality of merchandise , claim of non receipt etc. MapleDots would lose the chargeback if the purchaser claimed fraud - unauthorized transaction - in a card not present transaction especially for delivery of virtual goods.

Anyway let him figure it out the hard way someday. You can’t always reach someone whose mind is made up. I’d never use my merchant account (I have two different ones, besides PayPal, Payoneer, transferwise and some others) to receive payment on domain sales or any kind of virtual item including service, especially from someone outside the US, other than maybe for small dollar transactions. That would be foolhardy. You’d probably be better off using PayPal even PP has more protections in place for these types of virtual transactions than a regular merchant account.

This is part of what we pay escrow.com for - to remove the risk of payment verification from us.

Ok I see what you mean, I don't think @MapleDots mentioned if there was fraud like a stolen credit card or something, just doing straight business with a real buyer who maybe had second thoughts about buying the domain.

 

[MapleDots]

This is part of what we pay escrow.com for - to remove the risk of payment verification from us.

I've heard of a few domainers getting burned using Escrow.
I don't think there is any sure fire way to prevent fraud in the domaining business other than one exception...

At Epik the registrar has control of the transaction and the domain. Epik can act as a neutral middleman and force a transfer lock for 60 days. By that time any fraud would have come to the foreground and Epik could just transfer the domain back to the domainers account.

I understand Epik is not real escrow but they are probably the safest form of escrow a domainer could ever wish for.

 

[Recons.Com]

Again, mapledots is talking about a dispute such as over quality of merchandise , claim of non receipt etc. MapleDots would lose the chargeback if the purchaser claimed fraud - unauthorized transaction - in a card not present transaction especially for delivery of virtual goods.

Anyway let him figure it out the hard way someday. You can’t always reach someone whose mind is made up. I’d never use my merchant account (I have two different ones, besides PayPal, Payoneer, transferwise and some others) to receive payment on domain sales or any kind of virtual item including service, especially from someone outside the US, other than maybe for small dollar transactions. That would be foolhardy. You’d probably be better off using PayPal even PP has more protections in place for these types of virtual transactions than a regular merchant account.

This is part of what we pay escrow.com for - to remove the risk of payment verification from us.

Chargebacks, losses etc. might happen. But Mapledots is still wise to use the merchant account. It probably costs him under 2.5% in average. Now compare that to 20%-35% people are paying Afternic, BB, SH etc. If he sells 100K worth of names, that is 2.5K in fees vs 20K to 35K in fees. And if 1-2 domains are lost in the process, the cost to replace those might be $20 to $2K, most probably (he can do a special due diligence on high cost names). That is still small fraction of paying 20k-35k in fees all the time.

It is interesting to see how people are so averse to losing money that they are prepared to forgo much bigger gain opportunities to "stay on the safe side".

 

[MapleDots]

Chargebacks, losses etc. might happen. But Mapledots is still wise to use the merchant account. It probably costs him under 2.5% in average. Now compare that to 20%-35% people are paying Afternic, BB, SH etc. If he sells 100K worth of names, that is 2.5K in fees vs 20K to 35K in fees. And if 1-2 domains are lost in the process, the cost to replace those might be $20 to $2K, most probably (he can do a special due diligence on high cost names). That is still small fraction of paying 20k-35k in fees all the time.

It is interesting to see how people are so averse to losing money that they are prepared to forgo much bigger gain opportunities to "stay on the safe side".

I use the same merchant account for a number of businesses so I actually get a much better rate than 2.5%. I'm usually sitting between 1.7 to 1.9% depending on which cards the clients are using.

 

[xynames]

Recons please compare apples with apples. Afternic charges 20% and provides a full brokerage service. Also, if you have your own landing pages as I do, and then someone ends up making the offer and buying at the Afternic marketplace, that is not a sale that would have necessarily even happened without Afternic.

Escrow.com is 3.25% and under ONE percent for large transactions. How people run down a path of reasoning without thinking deeply, such as you just did by comparing what happens at escrow.com with what happens at Afternic, is one way that misadvisals are rendered.

And how many buyers are going to just allow you to charge their credit card before receiving the domain anyway? Start talking like that and you might even lose the sale, while pointing a first time end user to escrow.com reeks of respectability and reassurance.

 

[EmpireNames.com]

i have used Epik escrow multiple times 4 figure & 5 Figure transactions..
everything went very smooth. and happy with quick service of @Rob Monster

 

[Recons.Com]

Recons please compare apples with apples. Afternic charges 20% and provides a full brokerage service. Also, if you have your own landing pages as I do, and then someone ends up making the offer and buying at the Afternic marketplace, that is not a sale that would have necessarily even happened without Afternic.

Escrow.com is 3.25% and under ONE percent for large transactions. How people run down a path of reasoning without thinking deeply, such as you just did by comparing what happens at escrow.com with what happens at Afternic, is one way that misadvisals are rendered.

And how many buyers are going to just allow you to charge their credit card before receiving the domain anyway? Start talking like that and you might even lose the sale, while pointing a first time end user to escrow.com reeks of respectability and reassurance.

It is you who doesn't think deeply.

You don't have to compare things like you did above if the choice is not strictly "either or".

If Afternic sells a name, which it often does, it deserves its 20%. That doesn't mean I shouldn't try and steer potential buyer to buy on my landing page paying the same amount, while the transaction will cost only 1.5-2.9%. On a 5,000$ name, that is $850 difference.

Not only Escrow.com cost more for most names with 3.25% compared to 1.5-2.9, while pretty much not doing anything besides holding money for couple of days, it also kills off the impulse buy potential, as well as creating additional limitations on who a buyer can be. They have too extensive of a list of countries and they routinely create lots of issues for buyers/sellers.

So, yes, merchant account or card payment gateway is the best, most financially beneficial, smoothest solution when you have choice. Again, in case of Afternic, you don't have choice, except giving up the sale altogether, when a name was discovered via their search or via their brokerage, but that is payment for extra service.

 

[MapleDots]

in case of Afternic, you don't have choice, except giving up the sale altogether, when a name was discovered via their search or via their brokerage, but that is payment for extra service.

Yup there is always a choice..... you can ignore the afternic offer and wait for the client to hit your lander. Chances are the client will eventually punch it into the address bar. If he gets no answer at afternic he may decide to hit you up via the lander.

At which time if a sale happens you can save the afternic fee and use the merchant account to process at a couple percent.

Does that work?

HeHe..... me no say!

Now if your domain were on godaddy or sedo or such at a low $20 opening to draw attention to it, someone might also come yo your lander if they get no response.

Hmmm.... could that work?

HeHe..... me no say!

That would be a life almost commission free

 

[Rob Monster]

i have used Epik escrow multiple times 4 figure & 5 Figure transactions..
everything went very smooth. and happy with quick service of @Rob Monster

Thanks Riz.

We are happy to be Pakistani domainers preferred way to buy and sell domains and to serve as local intermediary where needed. As with India, I see great potential for the future of domaining in Pakistan.

The banking limitations in Pakistan are unique. In response, we are continually adapting to the unique requirements within the bounds of the law.

I actually don't doubt that within the next 3-5 years, some of the top domainers in the world will be Pakistanis. Those who doubt it are not paying attention!

 

[MapleDots]

The strange thing is i am still able to add bank account in Disbursement option from the country which is not accepted by escrow.
Show attachment 140927

You know.....

With the population base in India and Pakistan someone needs to just say screw it and open up a local company that deals from there without all the BS form European or North American entities.

I mean really, they are scared shitless because they have no control in that part of the world. Paypal is pretty much the same, you can't really count on anything when dealing in that part of the world.

A strong local entity of some sort would give Escrow and Paypal a run for the money and they would be much better situated to detect fraud.

 

[MapleDots]

I actually don't doubt that within the next 3-5 years, some of the top domainers in the world will be Pakistanis. Those who doubt it are not paying attention!

You don't have to look far to see some real talent in India and Pakistan. You see a lot of rank amateurs too but that is no different than in our neck of the woods.

 

[Rob Monster]

You don't have to look far to see some real talent in India and Pakistan. You see a lot of rank amateurs too but that is no different than in our neck of the woods.

Exactly.

One overwhelming advantage these emerging market sellers have is that they can unleash armies of low cost talent to both find inventory and engage buyers. They are doing it.

Where they fall short is when end-users get tripped up by a name of a seller that they can't pronounce, or worse, they discriminate against out of arrogance, bigotry and/or fear.

The escrow intermediary can play a key role here in not only securing the transaction but also in helping the buyer get past their concerns about the seller. It is a very real thing and can be a deal-saver.

I expect escrow will remain alive and well, in part because of the fast-growing role that emerging market domainers are playing in connecting supply and demand.

As such, it seems to be suicide that escrow.com would be denying service to key emerging markets like Nigeria and Pakistan. Our experience in both markets has been 100% fantastic.

So, I say onwards with the emerging markets -- escrow intermediaries should enable and embrace them fully or get out of this business.

 

[MapleDots]

Personally, I think both Google and Microsoft hired two great CEO's but I can almost guarantee you that a small part of the decision was where these folks were from. It is the fastest growing market and a local at the helm of a worldwide company goes a long way toward creating trust.

I actually wrote an article about that...
https://www.namepros.com/threads/india-is-ruling-the-world.1014676/

Heck if the worlds biggest companies can have faith in India then some smart guy launching Escrow or Paypal alternatives is bound to have some success.

 

[namemarket]

Again, mapledots is talking about a dispute such as over quality of merchandise , claim of non receipt etc. MapleDots would lose the chargeback if the purchaser claimed fraud - unauthorized transaction.........

I am sure the risk of loss in higher in those nations however I can speak from bitter experience over many years (even with a bill of sale and delivery proof) when selling ether digital or non-digital products if the customer simply says in writing the credit card charge itself was unauthorized it is a 100% certainty MapleDots would lose the dispute.

That's unless it can be proven it was in-fact truly authorized, something almost impossible to do. He would lose even if the customer is in Canada or USA. The key is unathorized, something I am guessing MapleDots has not ran into (yet). It depends on how dishonest your customer is with his reason for the chargeback.

 

[Recons.Com]

Yup there is always a choice..... you can ignore the afternic offer and wait for the client to hit your lander. Chances are the client will eventually punch it into the address bar. If he gets no answer at afternic he may decide to hit you up via the lander.

At which time if a sale happens you can save the afternic fee and use the merchant account to process at a couple percent.

Does that work?

HeHe..... me no say!

Now if your domain were on godaddy or sedo or such at a low $20 opening to draw attention to it, someone might also come yo your lander if they get no response.

Hmmm.... could that work?

HeHe..... me no say!

That would be a life almost commission free

I am fine paying to Afternic/GD for business they bring. Even if 1/5 doesn't follow through the lander and make an offer there, I'd be losing money already. Plus, I am always ok to pay for the business brought by someone else. It is different from, say, having your lander point to DAN, which has close to zero of own generated buyers and pay them 9% instead of just doing your own site/lander and paying 1.5-2.9%. Probably, 99% of potential buyers have heard of them as much as they have heard of you.

 

[MapleDots]

That's unless it can be proven it was in-fact truly authorized, something almost impossible to do. He would lose even if the customer is in Canada or USA. The key is unathorized, something I am guessing MapleDots has not ran into (yet).

It's kind of hard to argue with a contract/bill of sale and call it unauthorized especially when it contains the clients signature and credit card details with address etc. Combine that with proof of delivery signed for like in my online store and I would measure to say that it is not quite as cut and dry as you say.

I won one recently, mind you it was a charge back, and once I showed proof of delivery and acceptance by the client I was able to get the funds dispersed into my account.

 

[Recons.Com]

I am sure the risk of loss in higher in those nations however I can speak from bitter experience over many years (even with a bill of sale and delivery proof) when selling ether digital or non-digital products if the customer simply says in writing the credit card charge itself was unauthorized it is a 100% certainty MapleDots would lose the dispute.

That's unless it can be proven it was in-fact truly authorized, something almost impossible to do. He would lose even if the customer is in Canada or USA. The key is unathorized, something I am guessing MapleDots has not ran into (yet). It depends on how dishonest your customer is with his reason for the chargeback.

The transaction is not automatic. You sell a name, someone pays, you get their contact info, get in touch, verify via Linkedin, check IP etc. If too suspicious of a case, require and ID or do a video chat. Especially, for names that cost a lot to acquire. If the cost to acquire/restock is $20, then that all you are risking pretty much.

 

[Recons.Com]

It's kind of hard to argue with a contract/bill of sale and call it unauthorized especially when it contains the clients signature and credit card details with address etc. Combine that with proof of delivery signed for like in my online store and I would measure to say that it is not quite as cut and dry as you say.

I won one recently, mind you it was a charge back, and once I showed proof of delivery and acceptance by the client I was able to get the funds dispersed into my account.

How do you do proof of delivery for a domain? And what if he is claiming to be someone else, signs everything as needed, takes control of the name, then you get chargeback from someone else, who is the real owner of the card?

 

[namemarket]

It's kind of hard to argue with a contract/bill of sale and call it unauthorized especially when it contains the clients signature and credit card details with address etc. Combine that with proof of delivery signed for like in my online store and I would measure to say that it is not quite as cut and dry as you say. I won one recently, mind you it was a charge back, and once I showed proof of delivery and acceptance by the client I was able to get the funds dispersed into my account.

All he had to do was say it is not his signature on the bill of sale meaning some third party signed it, and never authorized anyone to use his card and he will win, guaranteed. In fact, there's nothing preventing him from even keeping the product because the credit card bank does not require it be returned.

 

[frank-germany]

About 1.2 million domains under management and 624,394 domains on the Epik registrar.

I guess the "under management domains" are the "external" domains
means domains that appear in the epik account, but are registerd elsewhere

you can't possibly quote those names as "under management"
as you can't manage anything except transferring them to epik , right?