Epik, We have a problem. Domain removed from account without permission.

[bmugford]

I am sure as many of you are aware I have had issues with Epik in the past, but decided to give them a chance when I saw a domain I wanted on Name Liquidate.

I purchased the domain PianoMoving.com on 7/20. It was transferred into my account then.
This was the only domain in my account.

It was in my WHOIS information.
I updated the nameservers.

When I just checked it is magically no longer in my account.
The nameservers were changed.
I received zero contact about the domain being moved.

I have all the receipts -

1.) The purchase/renewal from Epik.
2.) The Paypal charge.
3.) Email of when the domain was moved into my account @ Epik.
4.) Email when the nameservers were updated in early August @ Epik.

I don't see any indication that the domain was removed from my account.
On top of zero communication, there also appears to be nothing under "Outgoing Pushes" or "Task History".

I sent a DM to @Rob Monster about this earlier this morning, but have not received a response yet.

I was just notified I received a refund. I don't want a refund.

I want the domain I won, that was in my account, which I had full control over.
It was removed from my account without permission or even notification.

I do not find this acceptable in any way.

@Epik.com, you have some explaining to do.

Brad

 

[bhartzer]

Stolen domain: Ok, if I pay for renewal, and it is not renewed, and I'm not aware of it,
and not complain about it, and Epik sells it to third parties (trying to sell our grace expired grace period domains as if they own them), isn't this theft, of course it is.

Isn't that what other registrars, like GoDaddy do? If you don't renew the domain, then GoDaddy will put the domain on auction and sell it to someone else, profiting from the sale. The domain can then go back to the original registrant if they renew it, and it does happen from time to time. That's not theft of a domain name, it's GoDaddy selling the domain at their auction during a grace period if the registrant doesn't renew the domain name. That's NOT stealing a domain name or theft of a domain name.

The theft of a domain name is when a domain name is domain name is transferred to someone else without the permission of the current registrant.

An example of domain theft is when someone compromises a registrar account (they hack into the account) and change the registrant details without permission.

Auctioning off a domain name that was not renewed is NOT domain theft.

 

[bmugford]

Isn't that what other registrars, like GoDaddy do? If you don't renew the domain, then GoDaddy will put the domain on auction and sell it to someone else, profiting from the sale. The domain can then go back to the original registrant if they renew it, and it does happen from time to time. That's not theft of a domain name, it's GoDaddy selling the domain at their auction during a grace period if the registrant doesn't renew the domain name. That's NOT stealing a domain name or theft of a domain name.

The theft of a domain name is when a domain name is domain name is transferred to someone else without the permission of the current registrant.

An example of domain theft is when someone compromises a registrar account (they hack into the account) and change the registrant details without permission.

Auctioning off a domain name that was not renewed is NOT domain theft.

I don't really want to go off topic with this thread, but I think he is referring to if you pay for a renewal, and the renewal is not applied properly, then allowing the domain to expire.

If that was the case, the registrar could have massive legal exposure.

Brad

 

[topdom]

0-Yes, it is legal and maybe ethical also to sell expired domains of users, which were expired more than 30 days ago. Everyone is doing it.

1-At Epik, .. they try to sell grace-expired domains (such as a domain expired yesterday, but fully owned by the same person) of their users, as if they are actual owners, and wait for 30 days to complete the sale legally.
This part is unethical but may be legal (depends on Icann's decision).

2-And also add to this, not renewing domains which were paid for renewal. There is a potential for double-theft here.
And customer service can't fix this problem, and escalates it, and tech team is slow, and may ignore complaints, and meanwhile we may forget about it (or stay under constant stress and waste lots of time for nothing).

 

[bhartzer]

@brad there is a separate post that topdom has posted about renewals and I've addressed it there.
I have dealt with those cases in particular, and we got domains back once proof of renewal was provided. These were other registrars.

 

[bhartzer]

0-Yes, it is legal and maybe ethical also to sell expired domains of users, which were expired more than 30 days ago. Everyone is doing it.

1-At Epik, .. they try to sell grace-expired domains (such as a domain expired yesterday, but fully owned by the same person) of their users, as if they are actual owners, and wait for 30 days to complete the sale legally.
This part is unethical but may be legal (depends on Icann's decision).

2-And also add to this, not renewing domains which were paid for renewal. There is a potential for double-theft here.
And customer service can't fix this problem, and escalates it, and tech team is slow, and may ignore complaints, and meanwhile we may forget about it (or stay under constant stress and waste lots of time for nothing).

I'm sorry I cannot address anything related to Epik regarding #1 in above, as I run a separate company, DNProtect.

But if there's an issue with domains where a renewal was paid for and not applied and you're not getting the issue taken care of, then please notify DNProtect. We deal with issues like this all the time with ALL registrars. We recover and protect domain names.

 

[Daniel Owens]

Does this mean epik is good or bad?

 

[Future Sensors]

An example of domain theft is when someone compromises a registrar account (they hack into the account) and change the registrant details without permission.

That's one example indeed.

Another example - as you're also mentioning yourself elsewhere - is when people from the same company are involved. Not because of social engineering, but otherwise. In this case, it currently looks like employees working for the registrar have been involved in the transfer of Brad's domain to another account at Epik, related to the sale. If this is unauthorized by Brad, I'd label it as "stolen" as well.

But do let us know if it happened in any other way.

Regarding Brad's excellent domain, it is really fortunate that the domain is still at Epik ID 617, which will make recovery of the domain a lot easier for you guys.

 

[Future Sensors]

I would certainly keep this domain locked during your investigation.

 

[cyc]

Sad for you @bmugford, lol to @Epik.com again.

They always stand out with troubles, each year different news.

I would be ashamed to own or co-operate a brand like this because of all these.

 

[bmugford]

From the Name Liquidate FAQ -
https://nameliquidate.com/faq

For Buyers -

I changed my mind about buying a domain, is there a refund policy?
All liquidation sales are final, you must honor the purchase as agreed.

I am going to assume that is true for the seller as well. It would be kind of pointless if it is only binding for the buyer, and the seller can just do whatever a month later.

Brad

 

[Lox]

RM, No one likes firing an employee but … inside job is a no no.

 

[bmugford]

I just received this response from Epik support -

> Dear Brad,
>
> Hope you're well.
>
> My name is Jaime, I'm the Customer Success Manager here at Epik, nice
> to meet you.
>
> Firstly and foremost, I'd like to apologize for this situation. While
> we do our best to keep an elevated standard of quality in our
> marketplace, there is always a small margin of error.
>
> In this case, it appears there was a system error that allowed this
> domain to be placed in liquidation status, and this in turn allowed
> it to be purchased through NameLiquidate. While this is not the
> outcome you expect, we hope you can understand that our error
> affected the previous and original domain owner first, and we must
> cancel and reverse this aftermarket sale in order to correct this
> error on their behalf.
>
> Due to the anomalous nature of this event, this was noticed and
> corrected later than it should've been, for which we take
> responsibility, and I offer our apologies for not having properly
> notified you in your expected timeframe, as there was due diligence
> to be made in seeking the root cause for this issue.
>
> We have refunded you in full any and all fees associated with the
> domain name purchase, and we again apologize for this situation and
> inconvenience.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jaime Jacob
> Customer Success Manager


I am sorry, but this is just not going to work for me. Oh, it was some unexplained error or something. Sure.

There are way too many unresolved questions regarding what happened.

The timeline does not really make any sense. It was removed without my permission, notification, or any record of it around a month later. It was magically removed at the exact same time it "sold".

Again, how was it even removed from my account, after a month, when it was sold by another party?
Why was there no notification or record of this movement? This was clearly done internally.

Was Epik ever going to even let me know? It was only for dumb luck that I even noticed.

This situation reflects very poorly on Epik, and potentially other related parties.

Epik has a chance to make this right. The response doesn't even pass the smell test.

After reading this thread, I wonder how many people feel more secure with domains in their Epik account?

If you think this statement is going to resolve what happened, you are sadly mistaken.

Brad

 

[alcy]

doesnt this happen like often enuf on gd...when someone wins auction.. then domain removed and refund for whatever cause.... either way... epik can always call it rare error and not so much u can do here.. but I do vote u get say 100 free com renewals

 

[Altetra]

From what I understand, this Braden guy listed domain at DN liquidate, he forgot to remove the for sale listing, the domain arrived to you, he sold the domain, Braden contact his inside friends at Epik "hey bro I just sold my domain, can ya do me a favor push it to the new owner" that's it sale done.
It seems that Braden Polock has good friends at Epik.
I think he should pay you for what he sold the domain, minus some percentages.
IMO

 

[tonyk2000]

Must have been administrative decision or inside job then. Inside job is one story, but administrative decision should have some legal grounds. I tried to check formal T&C (not a FAQ) of nameliquidate but could not find any.

However, as per Epik.com Universal Terms of Service ( https://www.epik.com/terms ) :

3.2. ... Epik also may in its sole discretion and without liability to you delete the registration of any domain name during the first thirty (30) days after registration has taken place.

It says "without liability". Can it be understood "without refund"? Unlikely. So, even if the domain ownership was changed exactly on the day No 30, which seems to be the case, there was no refund on 30th day. So, (3.2) is not applicable.

What is applicable then?
Maybe this:

You must read, agree with and accept all of the terms and conditions contained in this User Agreement and the Privacy Policy, which include those terms and conditions expressly set out below and those incorporated by reference, before You may use the Site or the Services and become a registered user of the Services

...

3.5. Reserved
3.6. Reserved
3.7.5.5 Reserved
3.7.5.6 Reserved

It is unusual to have anything "reserved" in public terms, but this is what we see. What if any of the above "reserved" actually says: "NameLiquidate sales by Braden Pollock to Brad Mugford can be reversed anytime"?

In any case, something is definitely wrong and hopefully @bhartzer will find a solution. Which would not be easy since a) the domain is now owned by unrelated 3rd party AND b) discussing a settlement should almost definitely require this thread be removed by Brad, which is impossible as per NP rules.

 

[tonyk2000]

> In this case, it appears there was a system error that allowed this
> domain to be placed in liquidation status, and this in turn allowed
> it to be purchased through NameLiquidate.

So, the former registrant received a credit for a nameliquidate sale (high 3 figures), but did not notice it?

 

[bmugford]

From what I understand, this Braden guy listed domain at DN liquidate, he forgot to remove the for sale listing, the domain arrived to you, he sold the domain, Braden contact his inside friends at Epik "hey bro I just sold my domain, can ya do me a favor push it to the new owner" that's it sale done.
It seems that Braden Polock has good friends at Epik.
I think he should pay you for what he sold the domain, minus some percentages.
IMO

I don't really have any idea what went on between Epik and Braden, a month after I had legitimate ownership of the domain.

What I do know is that whatever happened would not have been possible without someone at Epik removing the domain from my account without permission.

When it was removed there was no notification given. There is no record of it happening.
There was also no refund given then. Why?

Brad

 

[Lox]

“ > In this case, it appears there was a system error that allowed this … “

… System Error my A**

…. we already know what happened … mudding.

 

[bmugford]

In any case, something is definitely wrong and hopefully @bhartzer will find a solution. Which would not be easy since a) the domain is now owned by unrelated 3rd party AND b) discussing a settlement should almost definitely require this thread be removed by Brad, which is impossible as per NP rules.

If Epik and/or Braden made a good faith effort to resolve this, I would be more than happy to mention that.

All I have seen so far is a lack of response from the parties involved, and one response that really addresses none of the serious issues at play.

Brad

 

[jhm]

From what I understand, this Braden guy listed domain at DN liquidate, he forgot to remove the for sale listing, the domain arrived to you, he sold the domain, Braden contact his inside friends at Epik "hey bro I just sold my domain, can ya do me a favor push it to the new owner" that's it sale done.
It seems that Braden Polock has good friends at Epik.
I think he should pay you for what he sold the domain, minus some percentages.
IMO

Sounds plausible