Buying/Selling - Is it Time to Quit Domaining?

[ZOX]

Hi guys,

Anyone notice a significant DECREASE in offers being made for domains now??

Thanks!
SDX

 

[labrocca]

Jesse.....I'm not sure what the hell is going on, but check out these insane prices at TDNAM. These auctions closed at these really high prices. Granted there was some expired traffic, but expired traffic does disappear. The prices are not justified :

19323362
o3q.com
$1,005 $10 109
AUCTION CLOSED


01/26/2009 11:44 AM (PST)
19321531
badcupid.com
$580 $10 31
AUCTION CLOSED

01/26/2009 11:46 AM (PST)
19321231
arab-woman.org
$250 $10 10
AUCTION CLOSED

01/26/2009 11:50 AM (PST)
19321765
bestbajafishing.com
$610 $10 71
AUCTION CLOSED

01/26/2009 11:51 AM (PST)
19321075
trava.com
$1,500 $10 47
AUCTION CLOSED

.

Maybe it's Adam again. hehe

Personally I can see Trava.com at $1500. Maybe a great Travel type site. I think 5L dotcom pronouncable brandables have a long-term positive position. The rest...yeah..suspicious but who can guess the nature of buyers. Also are these drop auctions? Because it sucks that I can try and sell repeatedly for years a domain and get nothing. Then I let it drop and some arsehole bids it up to $x,xxx and I get nothing while drop company gets paid. That really pisses me off about the industry.

 

[steveteva]

I already quit domain business since last 6 months as I notice slow transaction as global economy was plunging. I sold my entire portfolio and only have a few ones that I don't sell as they can be good investment. I think it's normal that domaining is not what it was before. Me too as a buyer I don't buy anymore domain names because economy is down and I don't have extra revenues like before so I could spend this extra money on domain names. Too bad hope that economy will come back healthier.

 

[Seabass]

Maybe it's Adam again. hehe

Personally I can see Trava.com at $1500. Maybe a great Travel type site. I think 5L dotcom pronouncable brandables have a long-term positive position. The rest...yeah..suspicious but who can guess the nature of buyers. Also are these drop auctions? Because it sucks that I can try and sell repeatedly for years a domain and get nothing. Then I let it drop and some arsehole bids it up to $x,xxx and I get nothing while drop company gets paid. That really pisses me off about the industry.

Yea....they were all drops.

I don't like any of them. I'd hate to be holding on to 1,000 "brandable" domains like Trava.com waiting and praying for an end user sale. I'd rather wait for something better to come along....IMO. If they don't make money I usually don't want them in my portfolio b/c they become liabilities instead of assets when you have to keep paying renewals on non-performing domains

There still is "domain hope". According to this article, India is not having a recession. Check out this guest post today at ElliotsBlog.com about Indian domains :

http://www.elliotsblog.com/index.php/you-dont-have-to-live-in-india-to-invest-in-indian-domains/

There still are new domain frontiers to be explored for both PPC and buyers/flippers.
.

 

[The Stealthy One]

But don't you think all the "good" names are taken, Seabass? From where I stand, it looks like the "little guy" has been priced out of the domaining market. This is very depressing, as I had only just gotten started good.

 

[Domagon]

Those drops really sold for that? ... sure makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong. I had a bunch of generic domains up for sale on both here and another forum (just blanked out the posts today), plus still have them up for sale at Sedo ... not even getting offers despite minimum offer set at just $100 for most. Many of my for sale domains are better than those drops that sold for those seemingly insane amounts.

Ron

 

[labrocca]

I don't like any of them. I'd hate to be holding on to 1,000 "brandable" domains like Trava.com waiting and praying for an end user sale.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a 5-10% of your portfolio into brandables. So many can be had for under $25 that are fairly good. Heck for $50 you can actually grab some very good ones imho.

Here are some examples of a few that I have an really like:
Witza.com
Zanmo.com
eZood.com
Fruny.com
Obubo.com
Sluxo.com
Voglo.com
Vucky.com
Vuwin.com

I grabbed most of those under $20.

As for India...I think that's why some new blood has entered the market. The benefit of domains is their world market appeal. The article you link to is excellent at highlighting the potential for growth.

 

[Seabass]

But don't you think all the "good" names are taken, Seabass? From where I stand, it looks like the "little guy" has been priced out of the domaining market. This is very depressing, as I had only just gotten started good.

Daniel, most have in .com. But the three examples I showed above are drops I got for very little. Does that not show there is opportunity?

.in domains have barely even been registered yet. Read that article. There are .in domains that you can hand reg that have positive cash flow.

What about .mx or .br domains? I have some Portuguese domains that make a lot.....meaning several hundred dollars to more than a thousand a year each. It helps to think outside the box these days.....at least on some purchases.

Is everyone here depressed or unexcited? I did not realize it had gotten this bad for so many domainers. I thought there would be some others here that are still doing at least okay.....at least 30%. Maybe they are all taking a break from domaining as has been speculated.

I do know that it is hard to see straight or think straight when it is hard to pay the bills, I've been there, but if you lose optimism......then you have nothing. That does not mean you should lose sight of being realistic either.....but there are still money-making domains to be bought at reasonable prices if you look hard enough.
.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a 5-10% of your portfolio into brandables. So many can be had for under $25 that are fairly good. Heck for $50 you can actually grab some very good ones imho.

Here are some examples of a few that I have an really like:
Witza.com
Zanmo.com
eZood.com
Fruny.com
Obubo.com
Sluxo.com
Voglo.com
Vucky.com
Vuwin.com

I grabbed most of those under $20.

As for India...I think that's why some new blood has entered the market. The benefit of domains is their world market appeal. The article you link to is excellent at highlighting the potential for growth.

I hope those pay off for you. Buying those domains just feels to me like playing the lottery. Maybe 5 to 10 percent composition is a good angle at a shot of big cash from an end user. I had not considered that.....I really only have seen them as holding me back since they are liabilities (unless they make money in ppc or development) until they are sold and move from the liability column to the asset column.

Maybe the second half of 2009 will see a mad rush to the Internet as folks start getting creative ideas for making money if they "just had the right domain". When I was in college my business history teacher's favorite saying was, "When pockets are empty, minds are full". Surely, under the current economic circumstances many folks are starting to think about trying their hand at a Net business. We may see a new wave of small time hustlers who are determined to get a piece of the Net pie. They will need an address.

.

 

[ZOX]

Daniel, most have in .com. But the three examples I showed above are drops I got for very little. Does that not show there is opportunity?

.in domains have barely even been registered yet. Read that article. There are .in domains that you can hand reg that have positive cash flow.

What about .mx or .br domains? I have some Portuguese domains that make a lot.....meaning several hundred dollars to more than a thousand a year each. It helps to think outside the box these days.....at least on some purchases.

Is everyone here depressed or unexcited? I did not realize it had gotten this bad for so many domainers. I thought there would be some others here that are still doing at least okay.....at least 30%. Maybe they are all taking a break from domaining as has been speculated.

I do know that it is hard to see straight or think straight when it is hard to pay the bills, I've been there, but if you lose optimism......then you have nothing. That does not mean you should lose sight of being realistic either.....but there are still money-making domains to be bought at reasonable prices if you look hard enough.
.

What doesn't break you, makes you stronger!

 

[snoop]

But don't you think all the "good" names are taken, Seabass? From where I stand, it looks like the "little guy" has been priced out of the domaining market. This is very depressing, as I had only just gotten started good.

That is always the way, people don't leave money lying on the floor. You can go back to pretty much any point in time and most said much the same thing, "all the good names are gone". I remember a friend of mine telling me years before I got into the industry (I think it would have been around 1998) that domains were all sewn up, all the popular one word names were taken already! He is still a poor man today. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying tthis is a great market right now, but the opportunities will never fall on top of you, you'll need to think long and hard.

I hope those pay off for you. Buying those domains just feels to me like playing the lottery. Maybe 5 to 10 percent composition is a good angle at a shot of big cash from an end user. I had not considered that.....I really only have seen them as holding me back since they are liabilities (unless they make money in ppc or development) until they are sold and move from the liability column to the asset column.

Agree, they don't sound like a great risk.

 

[labrocca]

I hope those pay off for you. Buying those domains just feels to me like playing the lottery. Maybe 5 to 10 percent composition is a good angle at a shot of big cash from an end user. I had not considered that.....I really only have seen them as holding me back since they are liabilities (unless they make money in ppc or development) until they are sold and move from the liability column to the asset column.

For the $75 a year it costs me for those 9 names I think I can hold them at least 3 years to see if brandables move. Often brandables with long registrations are even more valuable. Imagine any of those with 1999 reg dates..it would immediately make them worth $100+ easily.

Look how well 4L pronouncables have done. Most are worth mid $xxx or more. I sold more than a few in that range a year ago. People thought I was overpaying for CCC.com's at $30 too but sold tons of them at the $200+ range as well. I had about 80 at one point...do the math.

Part of the problem with dictionary terms is that companies can't use them to brand and it's becoming less popular to do so. Example is Snoops forgive.com. Yeah great dictionary term but does it generate any revenue. What company would want to use it for branding?

One day I can forsee ad companies buying up hundreds of brandables to keep in stock for future clients. What's a 5L pronouncable dotcom going to be worth to a car company...lexus.com anyone? sentra.com, acura, buick, volvo, SCION, mazda...

That's just cars too so just imagine the upward possibility of brandables. Part of the problem is having too few imho. If you have 20-50 to show a prospective buyer then you stand a greater chance of them finding one they really like.

Even at $200 a brandable and paying $10-$50 each that's a substantial profit. Every single CCC.com is worth at least $150-$200 no matter the combination.

Pronouncable 5L's are partially easier to distinguish...at least for me. How was I ever going to know I would sell z4h dotcom for $1000? It was more of a roll of the dice.

bah...

/rant

 

[snoop]

Imagine any of those with 1999 reg dates..it would immediately make them worth $100+ easily.

Even if true the reg fees paid would be over $100.

Part of the problem with dictionary terms is that companies can't use them to brand and it's becoming less popular to do so. Example is Snoops forgive.com. Yeah great dictionary term but does it generate any revenue. What company would want to use it for branding?

"Brandable" is the opposite of "generic", rarely will a company pay anything other than reg fee for a "brand" type name that is not a common term. When it is all said and done fogive.com sold for 5 times what I paid for 5.5 years ago, plus it made about $600 in parking revenue in that time.

How have the people who bought hundreds of made up brandable names gone with their investments? Personally I don't know of anybody who has been in the business a while who has kept that strategy, other than pershaps some hobbiests who aren't making a living from the industry. Generally people either moved to generics after a year or so or "dropped" out.

One day I can forsee ad companies buying up hundreds of brandables to keep in stock for future clients. What's a 5L pronouncable dotcom going to be worth to a car company...lexus.com anyone? sentra.com, acura, buick, volvo, SCION, mazda...

That's just cars too so just imagine the upward possibility of brandables. Part of the problem is having too few imho. If you have 20-50 to show a prospective buyer then you stand a greater chance of them finding one they really like.

Even at $200 a brandable and paying $10-$50 each that's a substantial profit. Every single CCC.com is worth at least $150-$200 no matter the combination.

Try actually making money from these. It is one thing to say "if they can just sell for $200" and another to actually see that result. Different people have been thinking up good reasons to buy these names for years way too many combinations compared to the size of the market for these names.

 

[labrocca]

When it is all said and done fogive.com sold for 5 times what I paid for 5.5 years ago, plus it made about $600 in parking revenue in that time.

Of course that's true because pricing 5 years ago was better for generics. The drop market was lucrative still and you could pick up lots of generics for $xxx. Is that true today? Like I said there comes a point where you can't obtain generics for a price that's reasonable. Can I ask if you have been able to acquire generics the past year at good prices you are comfortable that you can sell for profit in the next 3-5?

You're a great domainer Snoop don't get me wrong on that. And you're probably right about brandables going nowhere for most people.

Different people have been thinking up good reasons to buy these names for years way too many combinations compared to the size of the market for these names.

And what about all the weird CCC.com's that sell for mid $xxx or even $x,xxx? As if those names are better than a 5L brandable in some manner? I don't think so.

How have the people who bought hundreds of made up brandable names gone with their investments?

Same could be said in 1999 when people bought hundreds of generics. What possible use was there then? 5L pronouncables are going to be very scarce in a couple years. It will take time for these names to mature. As for usage...I have used many myself to develop. I haven't yet had a great success but that's a yet. I expect eventually to brand something worth good money. I also don't recommend "hundreds"...5% of a portfolio. That means if you have 100 names...get 5. If you have 1000 get 50. It's relative.

Is your opinion that in 5 years forgive.com will be worth much more than the $10k it just sold for? Curious about what you really think it's long-term value will be.

 

[sashas]

From my perspective, here, in India, we haven't really seen a major economic slowdown.

Sure, the stock market tanked here too, but it was over inflated and had to come down to a reasonable level anyway.

The second largest private sector bank here had a Q4 net up by 45%. When banks around the world are bleeding money, struggling to stay afloat, that is mighty impressive.

Our economy is still projected to grow at 6-7%+ at least. While that is definitely lower than the 9% we had been hitting the past few years, it is still a pretty decent growth rate.

Out here on the streets, I haven't seen people curb their spending habits or cut down on their lifestyle. Things are pretty fine the way they used to be an year back.

So yes, the world is becoming less and less dependent on American for its economic prosperity. This will be a feature of this century and the world financial compass will invariably have to realign itself


As for how it affects the domain business, I can predict that there will be more and more buyers from India, China, Brazil, etc. I see more and more websites being advertised here everyday. A major company launched IN.com a few months ago amid reports that it paid a very very handsome amount for that name. India is latching onto internet marketing, a feature that was absent here an year or two ago. In five years, we'll form a major portion of the online advertising market, and invariably, of the domain market

 

[labrocca]

So yes, the world is becoming less and less dependent on American for its economic prosperity. This will be a feature of this century and the world financial compass will invariably have to realign itself

An unsettling statement. I plan on leaving USA when my children grow up and become an expat travelling the world. I know I can live well on my internet income (hopefully in the future too) with what I earn right now.

 

[Seabass]

An unsettling statement. I plan on leaving USA when my children grow up and become an expat travelling the world. I know I can live well on my internet income (hopefully in the future too) with what I earn right now.

Or maybe a settling statement if you plan on being an expatriate.

I'm leaning that way also....looking to do it in the next 10 to 15 years from now. I'm going to keep a cheap, low-maintenance residence in the States in case I need run home for any reason.

 

[ZOX]

Or maybe a settling statement if you plan on being an expatriate.

I'm leaning that way also....looking to do it in the next 10 to 15 years from now. I'm going to keep a cheap, low-maintenance residence in the States in case I need run home for any reason.

Sounds interesting

 

[snoop]

Of course that's true because pricing 5 years ago was better for generics. The drop market was lucrative still and you could pick up lots of generics for $xxx. Is that true today? Like I said there comes a point where you can't obtain generics for a price that's reasonable.

The term "reasonable" means nothing to me, the market is what it is and only in hindsight do people make statements like the above. 2k for forgive.com looks cheap in today's market, I never considered it cheap back then.

Can I ask if you have been able to acquire generics the past year at good prices you are comfortable that you can sell for profit in the next 3-5?

I haven't bought a single domain since February last last, personally I thought the market was not well priced in terms of revenue multiples. That isn't to say made up names are somehow a good alternative.

The point I am making is generics have a history of delivering generally solid returns whereas brandable names that aren't popular keyword terms generally have a history of resulting of losses. That doesn't mean just keep buying regardless of how high the market is but I see no real value in made up names, the people buying them are just repeating the mistakes of the past in my view.

And what about all the weird CCC.com's that sell for mid $xxx or even $x,xxx? As if those names are better than a 5L brandable in some manner? I don't think so.

Clearly the market says otherwise and has been saying so for some time, they are better names because they are worth more. To argue the market is somehow wrong means very little, you can't pay the bills with what *you* think should be valuable, the idea is to acquire names that everyone else thinks is valuable and/or names with revenue.

Same could be said in 1999 when people bought hundreds of generics. What possible use was there then?

Generally those people have done rather well I would say.

Personally I bought them for traffic, cashflow, I still mainly buy investments for that reason. At the moment that is mainly stocks as I don't see strong opportunities in domains right now, that will likely change at some point though.

5L pronouncables are going to be very scarce in a couple years. It will take time for these names to mature. As for usage...I have used many myself to develop. I haven't yet had a great success but that's a yet. I expect eventually to brand something worth good money.

Let us know when you are actually making money from them.

Is your opinion that in 5 years forgive.com will be worth much more than the $10k it just sold for? Curious about what you really think it's long-term value will be.

No idea, personally I sold because and can get a better return by investing the money elsewhere in the current market. I'm more interested is generating passive cashflow that speculating on which way the market might go. Flip a coin...that is my opinion.

 

[zorag]

Hold on to your best assets!

If you can stretch this out for a year or so it will come back up on the flip side for sure - like it always has in most recent downturns. I've been domaining for over 10 years, I've been in IT businesses for 25 years, I've seen recessions and downturns come and go in many markets and I can tell you from experience that the number one problem with domainers and developers is the lack of patience.

I can't count how many times I've heard:
"I wish I persevered with that project it would have been massive now!"

And also recently:
"I sold that domain too cheap, should have waited for the market to get better!"

Why sell it? If your skint then fine otherwise why shift it now when you know "or should know" that the market WILL get better.

If you have a LOT of crap domains like the ones you acquired when you were dabbling and wet behind the ears (the ones you know are crap), get rid of them and cut down on your overheads. If you have premiums or keywords, do the right thing and develop them while your waiting for this downturn to upturn. Now is the time to sit down and streamline, work a bit harder on your inventory and create something from nothing!!

Also invest in merging markets like India, China, Brazil - don't let this pass you by because these markets are rocketing as we speak, I've already spent over 50k during Jan on these TLD's and I'm looking for more ..

 

[clasione]

It's like night and day from what I can see..... There are deals to be had out there if you're a buyer... I've picked up some decent names that would have been plenty more a year ago... Can't sell a thing though....

 

[randomo]

The world would become a much more productive place if the tens of thousands amongst us would re-channel those endless hours spent keying text representing concepts through whois checkers into acts of writing, artistic creation, problem solving, and other activities that facilitate the creation of those concepts.

This is a great point, and well said. We do need people to represent concepts too! - but creative minds should be fully utilized.

I've been domaining more-or-less full time for a few years (after dabbling before that), because it was a way to make some income while I pursued my creative goals. Well, I've been shirking on working toward those goals ... due to the time I've spent on domaining. That needs to change.

It has been rewarding to start developing some of my domains (in my beginner-ish way). When I look back on my career, I don't want to think, "I made some money when people stumbled on my parked pages and clicked on ads that, for all I know, may have been placed by swindlers & scammers." Run-of-the-mill parked pages are mainly pollution, lowering the internet's signal-to-noise ratio. I would prefer to think, "I added some interesting content to the web, and people enjoyed accessing it."

If you have a LOT of crap domains like the ones you acquired when you were dabbling and wet behind the ears (the ones you know are crap), get rid of them and cut down on your overheads. If you have premiums or keywords, do the right thing and develop them while your waiting for this downturn to upturn. Now is the time to sit down and streamline, work a bit harder on your inventory and create something from nothing!!

More good advice that I agree with wholeheartedly!

 

[labrocca]

Snoop..I always enjoy your posts.

Let's just hope this all shakes out and we are both still standing.

I am personally trying to avoid getting a J.O.B. Heaven forbid I have to work again.

 

[goodkarmaco]

We have not seen the big ripple from the economic shake yet.

So far we have seen the first shock wave. The big economic earthquake that is only moments away will decimate the USA dollar. The world will be in panic mode when the once strongest currency crumbles.

Pare down, stock up, renew out and downsize.

Morons including the new President are hell bent on replacing our free enterprize system with a social government. First they have to completly destroy the value of the American dollar. They like to spout they are saving the economy. Everything they are doing is for sure going to completly destroy it.

Some money in domaining can still be made. Once the dollars slides it will be deadsville for domains until a government comes back to money backed by silver or gold.

A new phrase will be coined, "cash is trash".

 

[newvista]

Hold on to your best assets!

If you can stretch this out for a year or so it will come back up on the flip side for sure ..

Totally agree, the economy is far more resilient than people think, think of this recession as a massive correction rather than doomsday.

 

[Seabass]

Totally agree, the economy is far more resilient than people think, think of this recession as a massive correction rather than doomsday.

Yea.....I agree the economy is very resilient.

It's just the Dollar I worry about.....print, print, print. I read that there is now 30% more Dollars in circulation than a year ago.

.

 

[copper]

Yea.....I agree the economy is very resilient.

This depend on each family and location.
For example, some location who rely heavily on auto industry are already dead.

It's just the Dollar I worry about.....print, print, print. I read that there is now 30% more Dollars in circulation than a year ago.

This, I agree 100%
This was exactly what govt. did just before Great Depression.
Govt. printed more and more money (intention was good) which caused
inflation and that caused Great Depression.

Govt. or anything should not interfere with natural flow of economy.
Leave it alone and it will correct itself in quickest time.
Interfere, it will just slow it down and make things worse.