poll As a buyer on a scale of 0 to 10 how important is the value assigned by an automated appraisal

[equity78]

Estibot and GoDaddy are the two dominant forces in the automated appraisal space, there are some other players in the game as well. No matter which service is providing the value, how much weight do you give to these services when making a purchase?

 

[Joe N]

You say that third party platforms have sold thousands of such like domains.

The Newbie in me compares that to tens of millions of similar transactions at GD and I know what I put more faith into.

You're not comparing the same thing.

Brandable name third party sites set prices on the names they sell, and people agree to pay them.

The GD appraisal bot does not sell the names it prices.

I think you need to clarify what you mean by GD's "transactions" in this comparison.

 

[koolishman]

Thankfully - there seems to be a better understanding of these bots than I thought here at NPs
52 votes for ZERO Value, (at this timestamp)
My confidence in the membership is restored - shame though that all the advocates of the Appraisal services are the most vocal in the threads

Checking the appraisal values? Yes I do it.

Basing the sales value solely on that? No

 

[Reddstagg]

You're not comparing the same thing.

Brandable name third party sites set prices on the names they sell, and people agree to pay them.

The GD appraisal bot does not sell the names it prices.

I think you need to clarify what you mean by GD's "transactions" in this comparison.

I think that what I was referring to was the GD which shows you 'More comparable domains sold'. This is using actual and factual data I presume.

In the original question it states...'As a buyer etc....' and I was thinking as an end user buyer rather than as a domain investor. There is the real world and then there is domain investing.

I saw yesterday that on one of the 3rd party sites there was a domain for sale for $3,000 and the GD appraised value was for less than $100. At least it was a .com.

I don't think I would ever buy a domain from this forum again as the prices seem to keep going up irrespective of a worldwide crisis. Everyone needs to knock some zeros off their prices in my opinion.

Still, what do I know huh?

Agree to disagree again.

Moving on......

 

[Joe N]

I think that what I was referring to was the GD which shows you 'More comparable domains sold'. This is using actual and factual data I presume.

In the original question it states...'As a buyer etc....' and I was thinking as an end user buyer rather than as a domain investor. There is the real world and then there is domain investing.

I saw yesterday that on one of the 3rd party sites there was a domain for sale for $3,000 and the GD appraised value was for less than $100. At least it was a .com.

I don't think I would ever buy a domain from this forum again as the prices seem to keep going up irrespective of a worldwide crisis. Everyone needs to knock some zeros off their prices in my opinion.

Still, what do I know huh?

Agree to disagree again.

Moving on......

I believe we're now getting away from discussing the value of a number assigned by an appraisal bot.

Anyway, even as a buyer I would tend to value the opinion of real people in an industry over any automated tool. I can't even think of a situation where that wouldn't be true. Actually... as a self-proclaimed long time business person, I'm surprised that you would favour the automated route.

But yes, agree to disagree.

 

[lock]

There is a bunch of information gathered to appraise a name that is the information your looking at not the price do not dismiss every tool as useless you might just find how often it is searched for or similar names sales history.

 

[Joe N]

There is a bunch of information gathered to appraise a name that is the information your looking at not the price do not dismiss every tool as useless you might just find how often it is searched for or similar names sales history.

Absolutely agree. This poll only addresses the value assigned by the tool.

 

[karmaco]

The GD tool has only been in use for about two years. Domain sales have been going on alot longer than that. People managed to price domains without GD for 30 years.

The tool is a detriment to a person trying to sell to end users (I remember Mr Mann was not happy with the tool—quite loudly)because it does not reflect average end user sales and it shows up on GoDaddy under your ask price. There should be a disclaimer that these are wholesale prices and don’t take this crap tool seriously.

The very fact that it refuses to give sales figures for anything over 25K shows how limited it is. It also has low ability on valuating made up words and future/emerging trends. Anyone defending the tool hasn’t had enough experience to know the tool is not the end all be all on prices.

 

[The Durfer]

changed my vote to 5, it perks my interest to see the value in the domain, then the other half is research and purchase.

 

[lock]

Absolutely agree. This poll only addresses the value assigned by the tool.

Exactly but wanted to let people know what there is probability in the math even if the end result isn't accurate.

 

[hn]

I would give 0 points to any automatic valuation tool. If it were even accurate by 5-10% you could have got some basic amount from sale of domains. Domaining is quite subjective and what I may find value in others may thing I over paid or the other way round. So if most of my domains are valued at say $1500 + does that mean on an average I can get atleast $50-100 out of a domain? If so then automatic valuation has value, but not come across similar offers.

 

[koolishman]

Domaining is quite subjective

True.

 

[BrandAptly.com]

I really think some sort of rating system will be a more efficient component of appraisal tools. I have been considering creating a database of all registered domains that allows visitors to rank domains on a scale of 1-10. Price ranges will be estimated based on the overall domain score.

 

[Reddstagg]

I really think some sort of rating system will be a more efficient component of appraisal tools. I have been considering creating a database of all registered domains that allows visitors to rank domains on a scale of 1-10. Price ranges will be estimated based on the overall domain score.

Good evening,

It is a nice idea as something is definitely needed and quick.

However, it will never work as for example if I have domain name that I want to be more highly rated I will get my family and friends to over inflate the scores. Obviously, the bigger the family the higher the scores.

Down the line it will then be possible to just buy random scores from unscrupulous dealers similar to likes on social media.

The irony of this thread is that although overwhelmingly obvious that many experienced and badged domain investors have shot down automated appraisals not many, if any of them has come up with a tangible alternative and continue to over price their domain names.

The world has changed and will keep turning so I guess I will have to just flip a coin to decide on values.

Regards,

Reddstagg

 

[Joe N]

The irony of this thread is that although overwhelmingly obvious that many experienced and badged domain investors have shot down automated appraisals not many, if any of them has come up with a tangible alternative and continue to over price their domain names.

I think what you're missing is that, in general, successful domain investors do not benefit from appraisal tools.

If it was so easy to know exactly what a name is worth, and as a result to have all buyers agree to pay that amount without question, then anyone could do this. What's more, there would be no aftermarket.

 

[BrandAptly.com]

Good evening,

It is a nice idea as something is definitely needed and quick.

However, it will never work as for example if I have domain name that I want to be more highly rated I will get my family and friends to over inflate the scores. Obviously, the bigger the family the higher the scores.

Down the line it will then be possible to just buy random scores from unscrupulous dealers similar to likes on social media.

The irony of this thread is that although overwhelmingly obvious that many experienced and badged domain investors have shot down automated appraisals not many, if any of them has come up with a tangible alternative and continue to over price their domain names.

The world has changed and will keep turning so I guess I will have to just flip a coin to decide on values.

Regards,

Reddstagg

I see the challenges you've outlined and I appreciate the wisdom in it. With that said, I will also argue that the amount of work a domain owner puts into promoting and branding a domain name adds to its value, however 'unscrupulous' the tactics employed may be. It will get more endusers involved in the process of appraising domain names. After all, they ultimately determine the commercial viability of a domain name.

 

[Reddstagg]

I think what you're missing is that, in general, successful domain investors do not benefit from appraisal tools.

If it was so easy to know exactly what a name is worth, and as a result to have all buyers agree to pay that amount without question, then anyone could do this. What's more, there would be no aftermarket.

Good evening,

I have to dis-agree, not just for the sake of dis-agreeing, but to put across a different perspective. Imagine if you will that domain investing has 10 layers/levels/divisions. If those on the lowest level are using domain appraisal tools then they are either inexperienced or new to domain investing or both.

Usually, as we Newbies are told so often we buy or register poor quality domain names. We either buy too many and drop them at renewal time or due to inexperience we sell domains for less than their actual worth, probably to someone not so new or inexperienced and lets call them level 2.

Everything has a consequence and this filters up the levels until it reaches level 10 which is so far removed from level 1 that the whole arena is different. Just go back on some of the old NP threads and you will see 4L domain names being sold for 5k back in 2013 for example, i.e. just 7 years ago.

Who arrived at those values? Buyers and sellers and the usual market forces. There were less people who were domain investors back then and few if any auto appraisal tools.

I noticed a few people buying domains a couple of months ago stating that they would pay between 5 to 10% of GD value for domain names (although these appear to have dried up now) so to those of us at the beginning of our journey it is at least a starting point and we all have to start somewhere.

I guess my point is this. Why don't we know how much a domain is worth? Why cannot all the smart people here from business, finance, maths or science backgrounds, or indeed from any background, race, creed, religion or socio-economic standing come up with something that we can all agree on.

Those that are quick to knock down the attempts of the companies to introduce automated appraisal systems have, in my mind not offered up an alternative so rather than just state that experience is a better alternative either learn to live with them, explore them or improve them.

If the industry experts do not find something that we can all use and have confidence in then one begins to question why so many are so quick to condemn without factual evidenced proof that there is a better alternative.

Maybe, the top levels of this business are better off not having any systems which can appraise a value for the general domain name buying public, who are in my own opinion the real end users of today's domain names. These were and continue to be traded as commodities like gold, silver, cadmium or oil.

Maybe, the tide is changing and we are beginning to see into the Pandora's box and people are worried in case we open it fully.

It has taken me just one year to get a good handle on domain investing as a business and people are afraid in case the likes of me learn all the secrets and begin to turn the business on its head.

A new breed of domain investor for a brave new world, which is changing before our very eyes.

A little knowledge goes a long way but too much knowledge can be seen in a detrimental way and until someone convinces me otherwise automated domain appraisal tools are here to stay and I will continue to use them as part of a structured domain investing strategy.

I look forward to all of your comments and views.

Regards,

Reddstagg

 

[Joe N]

Lots of interesting discussion points there, but I'll try to focus on a couple.

I guess my point is this. Why don't we know how much a domain is worth? Why cannot all the smart people here from business, finance, maths or science backgrounds, or indeed from any background, race, creed, religion or socio-economic standing come up with something that we can all agree on.

Since you say you have a good handle on this business, this is one that you should be able to answer.

The reason is that the domain aftermarket is not regulated. Nothing is stopping anyone from asking whatever price they want for a name. And nothing is stopping a buyer from paying $40K for a name most others would only spend $500 to own. How can a value be computed for something like that?

To make matters worse, every name is unique. Names you think should have similar value often don't, and it likely comes down to no more than:

• the seller's experience and patience; and
• the buyer's resources and personal tastes

I actually think professional athletes make a great comparison for this purpose. Does it bother you that some athletes make $20+ million dollars per year for no other reason except that there are wealthy teams who will pay that amount just to be the best?

These were and continue to be traded as commodities like gold, silver, cadmium or oil.

They are commodities. In addition, they are both assets and liabilities. They are brands. They are property. They are trademarks. They are advertisements. And you can never actually own them!

Nothing in the world is like a domain name. So many factors go into determining the value of any single name for any possible buyer... How could an automated tool ever account for all of it?

It has taken me just one year to get a good handle on domain investing as a business and people are afraid in case the likes of me learn all the secrets and begin to turn the business on its head.

It's quite the dichotomy, don't you think...? On one hand you want to re-invent the industry, but on the other hand you wonder why there isn't a better robot out there to do the hard work for you.

 

[BrandAptly.com]

As domainers, we're also salespeople. If the figures generated by domain appraisal tools give you more negotiation leverage and equip you with the confidence to insist on your asking price, then by all means have at it.

This discussion seems to completely neglect the highly complex emotional component of sales.It is the driver behind Starbucks ability to sell a .99$ 7/11 cup of coffee for $5.00. What appraisal tool was used to determine the price of that cup of coffee you just overpaid for? The answer is simple: Starbucks sells you an experience whereas 7/11 sells you a cup of coffee.

My consensus is that the value of a domain is the price the seller can persuade the buyer to pay to own it. If I can convince my next customer to pay $8k for shut-up-and-pay-what-i-want.com, that becomes the value with or without appraisal tools. Of course, the value may change if/when the buyer decides to resell the domain.

 

[xynames]

Depends on the domain, and also depends on what sort of comparables the automated appraisal comes up with.

 

[Reddstagg]

Lots of interesting discussion points there, but I'll try to focus on a couple.

Since you say you have a good handle on this business, this is one that you should be able to answer.

The reason is that the domain aftermarket is not regulated. Nothing is stopping anyone from asking whatever price they want for a name. And nothing is stopping a buyer from paying $40K for a name most others would only spend $500 to own. How can a value be computed for something like that?

To make matters worse, every name is unique. Names you think should have similar value often don't, and it likely comes down to no more than:

• the seller's experience and patience; and
• the buyer's resources and personal tastes

I actually think professional athletes make a great comparison for this purpose. Does it bother you that some athletes make $20+ million dollars per year for no other reason except that there are wealthy teams who will pay that amount just to be the best?

They are commodities. In addition, they are both assets and liabilities. They are brands. They are property. They are trademarks. They are advertisements. And you can never actually own them!

Nothing in the world is like a domain name. So many factors go into determining the value of any single name for any possible buyer... How could an automated tool ever account for all of it?

It's quite the dichotomy, don't you think...? On one hand you want to re-invent the industry, but on the other hand you wonder why there isn't a better robot out there to do the hard work for you.

Good morning and thank you for your reply.

So basically, you are saying that it is impossible to value a domain name as there are too many un-quantifiable parameters and the aftermarket cannot be regulated.

I don't care what people earn by the way and as we are individuals rather than teams or corporations I cannot comment on other situations. Any athlete, footballer or popstar has paid their dues over the years and deserve their payday. Their chosen fields are heavily regulated too.

I look more to the motor insurance industry where there too there are many un-quantifiable parameters at play. The only difference between the two industries is they have top level Actuarial teams who have quantified everything and from those calculations they are able to determine values, costs and everything in between and this is why we are able to get comparable quotes for motor insurance.

The seemingly impossible was made possible by getting the best people for the job, allocating a sufficient budget and by introducing regulation.

It can and should be done , it's just that as an industry we choose not to and pore scorn on any system which attempts to do so without suggesting a better alternative.

My question is this. Why aren't we as an industry crying out for regulation as in the long run it can help all of us?

We call ourselves professional, business people and yet we want to ride around like it is the WWW...Wild Wild West.

Every other type of commodity is regulated and has benchmark figures for buying and trading so it is not too far a stretch of the imagination to assume that the same cannot be done for domain investing.

Maybe those who are so against the idea are the ones who have the most to lose or hide. Maybe they will not be able to continue to act in a regulated industry.

I see it as a good idea and I think that it will make the industry more professional, more controlled and more transparent.

Only time will tell, but it is coming and I for one have no reason to not embrace it as I have everything to gain and nothing to hide.

Again, I think we shall just have to agree to disagree.

Regards,

Reddstagg

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Joe Nichols said; "Automated appraisals prey on those who haven't yet developed the confidence or experience (or courage) to valuate and market their own names".

Good morning and thank you for your reply.

So basically, you are saying that it is impossible to value a domain name as there are too many un-quantifiable parameters and the aftermarket cannot be regulated.

I don't care what people earn by the way and as we are individuals rather than teams or corporations I cannot comment on other situations. Any athlete, footballer or popstar has paid their dues over the years and deserve their payday. Their chosen fields are heavily regulated too.

I look more to the motor insurance industry where there too there are many un-quantifiable parameters at play. The only difference between the two industries is they have top level Actuarial teams who have quantified everything and from those calculations they are able to determine values, costs and everything in between and this is why we are able to get comparable quotes for motor insurance.

The seemingly impossible was made possible by getting the best people for the job, allocating a sufficient budget and by introducing regulation.

It can and should be done , it's just that as an industry we choose not to and pore scorn on any system which attempts to do so without suggesting a better alternative.

My question is this. Why aren't we as an industry crying out for regulation as in the long run it can help all of us?

We call ourselves professional, business people and yet we want to ride around like it is the Wild West.

Every other type of commodity is regulated and has benchmark figures for buying and trading so it is not too far a stretch of the imagination to assume that the same cannot be done for domain investing.

Maybe those who are so against the idea are the ones who have the most to lose or hide. Maybe they will not be able to continue to act in a regulated industry.

I see it as a good idea and I think that it will make the industry more professional, more controlled and more transparent.

Only time will tell, but it is coming and I for one have no reason to not embrace it as I have everything to gain and nothing to hide.

Again, I think we shall just have to agree to disagree.

Regards,

Reddstagg

Redd....you have articulated well just how screwed up this industry is, and change is coming. Verisign, the authoritative registry for the likes of the .com and .net extensions called out domainers for being scalpers and hoarders about 18 months ago.

It's pretty ironic in that every .com domain sold comes through Verisign who is an American public company located in Reston, Virginia.

Anyway Redd....you and I are considered domain rebels despite being newbies. Keep up the good work my friend from across the pond....our side is gaining

 

[Joe N]

Good morning and thank you for your reply.

So basically, you are saying that it is impossible to value a domain name as there are too many un-quantifiable parameters and the aftermarket cannot be regulated.

I don't care what people earn by the way and as we are individuals rather than teams or corporations I cannot comment on other situations. Any athlete, footballer or popstar has paid their dues over the years and deserve their payday. Their chosen fields are heavily regulated too.

I look more to the motor insurance industry where there too there are many un-quantifiable parameters at play. The only difference between the two industries is they have top level Actuarial teams who have quantified everything and from those calculations they are able to determine values, costs and everything in between and this is why we are able to get comparable quotes for motor insurance.

The seemingly impossible was made possible by getting the best people for the job, allocating a sufficient budget and by introducing regulation.

It can and should be done , it's just that as an industry we choose not to and pore scorn on any system which attempts to do so without suggesting a better alternative.

My question is this. Why aren't we as an industry crying out for regulation as in the long run it can help all of us?

We call ourselves professional, business people and yet we want to ride around like it is the WWW...Wild Wild West.

Every other type of commodity is regulated and has benchmark figures for buying and trading so it is not too far a stretch of the imagination to assume that the same cannot be done for domain investing.

Maybe those who are so against the idea are the ones who have the most to lose or hide. Maybe they will not be able to continue to act in a regulated industry.

I see it as a good idea and I think that it will make the industry more professional, more controlled and more transparent.

Only time will tell, but it is coming and I for one have no reason to not embrace it as I have everything to gain and nothing to hide.

Again, I think we shall just have to agree to disagree.

Regards,

Reddstagg

How will increased regulation will help domain investors who are already profitable?

 

[Reddstagg]

Good afternoon,

I worked in many different areas of the UK Insurance industry prior to and after the introduction of 'The Financial Services Act 1986' and can assure you that this specific piece of regulation helped every facet of the industry, whether that be Insurance Companies, Financial Advisors, Administration Staff, Brokers, Direct Insurance Companies, Regulatory Bodies, Law Companies, Estate Planners, Accountants and most importantly of all, the General Public.

In my honest opinion the industry was a better place to be after the introduction of this act and everything is more transparent, professional, honest, straightforward, less complicated and better regulated. It is definitely a win-win situation for everybody concerned.

Domain investing as a business makes people money. I can't deny that and wish everyone continued good luck as they move forward.

However, what I object to is making money from those who can ill afford to lose it in the first place or who have been told blatant lies, deliberately mis-informed or mis-directed or even manipulated and although this applies to many businesses we are only concerned with one.

Again, I state that if we want to be seen as honest, ethical professionals we need to be beyond reproach and above suspicion and we can only achieve this through either self-regulation or direct regulation.

If we cannot agree between ourselves on a methodology of determining prices then if we are not careful, we will be told to use one that we do not trust or have faith in.

There are subtle, minor changes that are occurring on both sides of the business and this may just be the first steps towards clarity and regulation.

If your house is not in order, now is the time to make the changes before it is too late.

There have been many people throughout history who have made money but that doesn't mean we should worship them, aspire to be like them or let history paint them as without sins.

My conscious is clear and I have nothing to hide and as I have not made any sales I don't have any cash to bury in the back yard. It happens.

For now, we should agree to disagree and move on.

Regards,

Reddstagg

 

[Joe N]

Good afternoon,

I worked in many different areas of the UK Insurance industry prior to and after the introduction of 'The Financial Services Act 1986' and can assure you that this specific piece of regulation helped every facet of the industry, whether that be Insurance Companies, Financial Advisors, Administration Staff, Brokers, Direct Insurance Companies, Regulatory Bodies, Law Companies, Estate Planners, Accountants and most importantly of all, the General Public.

In my honest opinion the industry was a better place to be after the introduction of this act and everything is more transparent, professional, honest, straightforward, less complicated and better regulated. It is definitely a win-win situation for everybody concerned.

Domain investing as a business makes people money. I can't deny that and wish everyone continued good luck as they move forward.

However, what I object to is making money from those who can ill afford to lose it in the first place or who have been told blatant lies, deliberately mis-informed or mis-directed or even manipulated and although this applies to many businesses we are only concerned with one.

Again, I state that if we want to be seen as honest, ethical professionals we need to be beyond reproach and above suspicion and we can only achieve this through either self-regulation or direct regulation.

If we cannot agree between ourselves on a methodology of determining prices then if we are not careful, we will be told to use one that we do not trust or have faith in.

There are subtle, minor changes that are occurring on both sides of the business and this may just be the first steps towards clarity and regulation.

If your house is not in order, now is the time to make the changes before it is too late.

There have been many people throughout history who have made money but that doesn't mean we should worship them, aspire to be like them or let history paint them as without sins.

My conscious is clear and I have nothing to hide and as I have not made any sales I don't have any cash to bury in the back yard. It happens.

For now, we should agree to disagree and move on.

Regards,

Reddstagg

Are we agreeing to disagree or discussing? You seem to be doing both. But yes, feel free to move on after my response.

Your post contained a lot of vague implications and allusions, but do you have any specifics to offer?

Who is being told blatant lies?
What lies?
Who has money to hide from sales they've made?
How will an automated appraisal tool correct all this?

My opinion is that most professionals in this industry do self-regulate. Do you have evidence that shows otherwise?

Either this discussion has gotten way off-topic, or you think an appraisal tool could "fix" an industry that is only "broken" for those who are inexperienced and/or not yet successful.

 

[Reddstagg]

OK, as you seem to want to continue by asking me questions I will respond.

I do not have to have seen brown envelopes stuffed with cash to know that any society that is unregulated in any way can contain people who are not honest, not trustworthy, transparent, professional or who only have their best interests at heart. No, I cannot name names as it probably happened before I started.

You're either just burying your head in the sand or naive to think that it didn't happen, or indeed continues to happen. Self-regulation has to be by a body corporate representative of the industry and not be done be individuals as they see fit. An individual being accountable to the best of their knowledge and beliefs in not self-regulation.

Now, let's take a random sample of a domain name which proves why people do not advocate for the use of automated domain appraisal tool. Let's see.... 'Twiddl.com. You may recognize it. It is a name listed at Brandpa and registered at GD. It is for sale for $2995. Quite expensive for a six figure mis-spelling. It is appraised by Estibot for $240 and GD has it for less than $100. It is no wonder you are not a big fan of auto appraisal tools.

I would say you'd be lucky to get anything in the $300-500 range for it, but then what do I know as I am not a seller or I do not have any relevant experience. It doesn't even pass the radio test lol.

Now, if we as a professional body could agree on a system to work out the value of domain names we could state that the correct spelling of this domain name has a five figure appraised value and therefore this would only have a 5-10% value of the correct spelling (just by means as an example for the purposes of this discussion) of the domain name. It could even be agreed as 10-20% of value set on a pre-determined set of criteria.

Why would any company spend time and money developing an automated appraisal tool if their only motive was to make money. They probably have cheaper and easier ways of making money. They don't actually have to do much to make money as us domainers have a knack of spending our own money regardless. There has to be a combination of analytics, science,, math, probability, previous sales, comparable sales and many other criteria used in the formulation of this system and I don't claim to understand it but if we could all get behind one system at least I believe that we are then on the way to a more profession transparent business.

Either this discussion has gotten way off-topic, or you think an appraisal tool could "fix" an industry that is only "broken" for those who are inexperienced and/or not yet successful.

The words in blue above are your words directed specifically at me (and others like me) and they are so wide of the mark that it is worrying to think that this is how you feel. If you cannot see that the industry is broken for everyone then the problem is even bigger than I imagined. Just because I have been a domain investor for just over a year does not make me inexperienced in life and maybe you should get down from your ivory tower and credit me with some level of intelligence and accept that maybe someone who doesn't share your own opinion might have some validity. The only reason that I am not yet successful by your definition is that I haven't really tried to sell any of my domain names as I don't need to at this moment in time. However, it is my intention to sell a few at some point but I guess it all depends on how desperate I become.

Not everything in this life is black and white and maybe sometimes in life we have to accept that there are grey areas/issues.

I get the impression that most domainers don't give a fig either way about this discussion so I will give you the right of reply but then I shall be closing my thread.