An Epik Statement on Racism and Injustice

[Rob Monster]

Archived copy here: https://www.epik.com/equality

 

[bmugford]

I am interested in words and actions.

The treat people with "kindness, humility, and compassion" rhetoric does not match your actions.

Or does spreading ridiculous conspiracy theories and sharing a video of people being slaughtered qualify under that? Do attacks on an editor @ Wikipedia fall under that? Do racist comments from Epik employees fall under that?

Is Epik still going to not only host, but court the far right wing extremists, which often include racism as shown over and over again?

Is Epik going to take any action vs employees for their racist comments?
Is Epik going to openly come out and reject racist supporters like Charizard?

Also, isn't Robert Davis the user intelliname that has been involved of much of this nonsense from the attack on Molly White @ Wikipedia, spreading baseless conspiracy theories, and the recent nonsense with Dan.com?

It is my view that Rob and Epik put themselves in this position with their (poor) decisions.

Take accountability. Take responsibility. Take action to fix it.

Brad

 

[TheBaldOne]

Do we in the democracies not elect those who make our laws? Do we not elect replacements for those we think have not done a good job making our laws? Do those elected not have a chance, and indeed often do, change laws? Do we not have a system where laws either existing or proposed are openly and publicly debated?

It seems people are equating 'bad laws' as those they disapprove of, either current laws or now historic laws. What right has anyone in a democratic country to decide arbitrarily which laws they will obey and which laws they will ignore? If people do not like a law then try to get it changed, remarkably the system works very well. You find others of the same belief as you and you work together, you try and convince others of the rightness of your cause, you get 'public support' that at the ballot box brings about a decision of the electorate that within the democratic system used brings to power those the people wish to be governed by. If your beliefs are supported by a vast number of the electorate then generally your beliefs will result in those elected being in power and thus making and changing the laws of the society and country in which you live.

However, to just say that certain people should not have the right to air their views because they or others don't like those views, even though it is within the law for them to do so, is dictatorship and nothing else. Indeed this is the very practice that is carried out by dictators throughout history.

The basic rule in modern democracies is that the rule of law must be paramount and that the law applies to all. (I know exceptions apply for holders of certain offices, etc..) Is this not the best form of government and law making that exists? I think it is, even though in my own country of the UK I think some laws are ridiculous and indeed bad, and I obey the law because the society in which I live, a democracy, the law applies to everyone fairly and irrespective of prejudices. I think the same can be said generally for the USA and the other western type democracies in this world.

Give me our democracies any day of the week and the rule of just law over politicised indoctrinated mob dictatorship. Those who do not break the laws should not have their equal rights set asunder just because others don't like them.

Right then, that is my one and only post on this thread, because from here on in I expect it to go the usual tirade of the 'right' are bad and the 'left' are great, or vice versa, in my mind neither view is totally accurate and indeed if one were then the ballot boxes would be overflowing in support of the one over the other.

Epik gives the same treatment and respect to all its customers as far as I can see - as long as they obey the law, and that is how it should be.

 

[Joe N]

Race has been the subtext of this discussion. Why would I lead with that and diminish the shock value?

I find knee-jerk reactions before facts are gathered rather interesting. You were actually very diplomatic in your response in spite of not having that pertinent information.

I have lived in the US for the last 25 years. One of my greatest regrets I have was attending a historically black college. 95% of the discrimination I have faced in this country came from African Americans. I was ridiculed in class on several occasions because of my accent. This was always my response: "Your mockery of the way I speak glorifies the very process that led to your becoming American." Most of these kids had IQs too far below room temperature to grasp the insult.

Listen to the lyrics in RAP music. Pay attention to how the verbiage demeans their women. Also pay attention to all the products that are being promoted in them. Prada, Gucci, Louis Vuitton, Fendi, etc. These dumb kids get brainwashed by this garbage. They then go out and rob each other for these brand name goods at gunpoint often resulting in the death of their victims.

On a monthly basis, blacks in the US kill far more blacks (over 4k) than the KKK has since it's formation. If you start a chess game by taking out all your black pawns, how does that increase your chances of winning?! Until we put well executed radical reform programs in place to demonstrate that our lives really matter, we just need to shut up. We do more harm to ourselves than the police ever does to us.

Take a look at this video:

This is one of the many black owned businesses that were vandalized under the guise of protesting against police brutality. Will someone explain to me how one can rationalize this stupidity? How does this illustrate our value for our lives? How does this alleviate our economic disadvantage?

You cannot mandate that other people treat you better than you're willing to treat yourself. That is just downright ridiculous.

I haven't done enough research on the topic to discuss it properly.

Maybe the things you suggest are part of the problem. However, I think that the way you're making your points is also part of the problem.

Anytime you're willing to cast blame on an entire group of people, you demean the wide variety of individuals in that group. You also give an easy out to all the other people outside that group who have a part to play in making things better.

These issues are caused by individuals, the choices we make alone and in groups, the policies and systems we create... We're all responsible.

 

[Michael M]

I believe most the comments in this thread are way off target and completely ignore the statement that Epik released.

The issue of rather you believe in someone's personal politics or agree with how they view the world does not give anyone a right to think they have moral superiority to call out and brow beat people into submission and acceptance of their views.

If you want to avoid a company because you don't have the same view, do so. But if a company releases a statement against racism and discrimination in any civil world that is not a point that you ask them to bow and kiss your boots. It should be accepted for what it is, even if your politics affect your views of people.

The truth is, and you guys will admit it if you are honest - is there is nothing Epik could do that would actually make you like them. You would only feel personally victorious in your battle to beat them into submission or nonexistence - once again all over politics.

In full disclosure: I don't even have any names with Epik, or any stake in their success or failure, but I do not like to see people or companies bullied based off political differences IN EITHER DIRECTION. That is not professional or civil.

 

[BrandAptly.com]

My post made no reference to your race at all.

Sounds like an interesting article. Would have been a lot less inflammatory sounding if you had led with all that detail.

Race has been the subtext of this discussion. Why would I lead with that and diminish the shock value?

I find knee-jerk reactions before facts are gathered rather interesting. You were actually very diplomatic in your response in spite of not having that pertinent information.

I have lived in the US for the last 25 years. One of my greatest regrets I have was attending a historically black college. 95% of the discrimination I have faced in this country came from African Americans. I was ridiculed in class on several occasions because of my accent. This was always my response: "Your mockery of the way I speak glorifies the very process that led to your becoming American." Most of these kids had IQs too far below room temperature to grasp the insult.

Listen to the lyrics in RAP music. Pay attention to how the verbiage demeans their women. Also pay attention to all the products that are being promoted in them. Prada, Gucci, Louis Vuitton, Fendi, etc. These dumb kids get brainwashed by this garbage. They then go out and rob each other for these brand name goods at gunpoint often resulting in the death of their victims.

On a monthly basis, blacks in the US kill far more blacks (over 4k) than the KKK has since it's formation. If you start a chess game by taking out all your black pawns, how does that increase your chances of winning?! Until we put well executed radical reform programs in place to demonstrate that our lives really matter, we just need to shut up. We do more harm to ourselves than the police ever does to us.

Take a look at this video:

This is one of the many black owned businesses that were vandalized under the guise of protesting against police brutality. Will someone explain to me how one can rationalize this stupidity? How does this illustrate our value for our lives? How does this alleviate our economic disadvantage?

You cannot mandate that other people treat you better than you're willing to treat yourself. That is just downright ridiculous.

 

[BrandAptly.com]

I haven't done enough research on the topic to discuss it properly.

Maybe the things you suggest are part of the problem. However, I think that the way you're making your points is also part of the problem.

Anytime you're willing to cast blame on an entire group of people, you demean the wide variety of individuals in that group. You also give an easy out to all the other people outside that group who have a part to play in making things better.

These issues are caused by individuals, the choices we make alone and in groups, the policies and systems we create... We're all responsible.

I live in a predominantly white neighborhood in Old Town Alexandria Virginia. You sound just like my white friends. They have been very apologetic and borderline obsequious since the recent turn of events. I have to constantly remind them that we were once business partners. I AM an integral part of the problem. I am not an isolated case. It is a widespread cultural phenomena. I AM a part of that group that I am blaming. It is always far too convenient for us to blame someone else for our home-grown problems.

I am a Fanti, a tribe of elitists who pride themselves in being fluent in the 'Queen's English' and frown upon anyone who cannot construct grammatically impeccable sentences. 75% of us have English full-names. Please explain to me how this illustrates national or cultural pride?

You are on the outside looking in. You have to live as a black person who has been exposed to various facets of the black culture to appreciate where I'm coming from. It is not the responsibility of the people outside the group to value us more than we value ourselves.

If you profess to be a black man and you write all these, ( don't let me to call it trash) you must be having a screwed perspection of Africa affairs. Before you continue with your article, go and read wide on how the West looted, and are still looting African resources till date.

The evil structures that they have set in motion in various African countries that the worst of us will always rule over the best, so that they can always pave ways for them whenever they come to steal African resources to better their own lives in the West.

Whenever they see rising stars such as; Nkurumah, Awolowo, Nelson Mandela etc, that will challenge their hegemony they will quickly orchestrate their evil machinations called coup to topple any government that will do the will of the people.
Since the time they have set their feets on African soil, till now, Africa have not know peace. We have never for ones been allowed to govern ourselves. It as always been black faces with white powers in all our governments.
It is only God that can deliver Africans.

Here goes the blame game and finger-pointing again. Please explain, logistically, how one goes about looting a country's gold from the mines along with all the other natural resources WITHOUT the approval of the local leaders? Please explain to me exactly how you think these corrupt leaders who collaborate and sell the country's resources came into power? Who do you think governed us before the colonial masters showed up 500 years ago? Who do you think gave them permission to govern us when they showed up? How do you think these coups are staged? If I arm you with a gun to kill your brother, would you actually do it if you value him more than the money you have been offered?

Every time any African political leader comes into power, the first thing they do is line their pockets with the country's money. They come in broke and leave multimillionaires. John Mahama served as the president of Ghana from 2012 to 2017. His net worth was $900M by the time he was leaving office. He came in with nothing. The salary of the Ghana president is $76K a year. Please explain that math to me. What do you think he sold to make that money? Who do you think he sold it to?

Look, it is a generational systemic problem that has pervaded our culture for a over 500 years. Until we own up to the major role we continue to play in the issues facing us, no amount of excuses made for us as a group or reparations will avail us.

One day my wife had the audacity to say that all blacks have been brainwashed. My response was "Who gave them permission to brainwash us? Where were we when it was being done? What did we do about it while it was being done?"

I call a spade a spade. I was raised never to make excuses. We, as a group of people, effed up several years ago and continue to dig ourselves deeper into a hole. We are like crabs in a barrel pulling each other down. Until that mentality changes, we will not realize any significant advancement as a group.

By the way, God cannot protect us against ourselves.

 

[bmugford]

I think I am missing context. Perhaps unpack this for us. What law did you wish for us to fight this week?

I think what Joe was saying is pretty clear. Just because something is within the law doesn't mean it is acceptable behavior. You went out of your way to court many of these extremists.

Laws change over time. There was a time when slavery was lawful, or burning witches at the stake, or endless other things that look ridiculous now.

Your statement means nothing without concrete actions.

I welcome an Epik statement on what actions you are actually going to take.

Brad

 

[BrandAptly.com]

If you have unbiased data to support what you're saying, then I hope your article will be objectively exploring why this is happening.

Without the "why", the "what" is nothing more than a barometer to show us that there is a problem.

I am guessing that you have no idea that I am black...more so that I am African, born and raised in Ghana.

I spent a good part of my youth in the country where the Transatlantic slave trade began 500 years ago. We still have the slave castles that we helped build for the Europeans to remind us of the horrific treatment we subjected our own brothers and sisters to. My family was right smack in the middle of it all. I am ashamed to say that we amassed generational wealth by facilitating and brokering slave transactions over a period of 400 years. After the slaves were sold, they were 'stored' in dungeons for months awaiting the arrival of the next cargo vessel. In spite of the grossly inhumane conditions under which we saw our people being kept on our own shores, we still provided and ensured safe passage for the slave ships.

The article I am writing will thoroughly illustrate how the very state of mind that made slave trade more convenient for the European settlers over a 400 year span still exists today. It will shed light on all the ways in which we are STILL selling our own people into psychological slavery. Until we stop taking dumps in our own houses, we can't point fingers at others for dumping in our houses.

You don't sell someone a mule and expect them to treat it like an eagle.

I am a documentary filmmaker by day. I can inbox you my name so you can research my background.

 

[bmugford]

Judge not, lest ye be judged. See Matthew 7:1-5 for context. Or you can learn it the hard way. Your call.

First of all, we are all works in progress, including Epik, its staff and me. The industry is also a work in progress. Did anyone expect this one today?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1271497235268866052

If your objective is to turn this positive thread into a struggle session for Epik, I am likely to disappoint you.

The point of the statement is to engage with compassion and love.

We can do all more of that, including you.

As for Wikipedia, there is a dedicated thread about it.

As for right wing sites, we don't court them. In fact, we turn many of them away.

If you want to have a call to discuss specific cases, happy to do that and report back to the group, as I surely lack context, e.g. never heard of "Charizard".

Here was my related comment:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1270740471590072322

My point is to show your words don't match your actions, and unless you are willing to take actions that back up those words, then the words themselves are meaningless.

Brad

 

[Joe N]

I think I am missing context. Perhaps unpack this for us. What law did you wish for us to fight this week?

Brad explained it perfectly.

Hate speech is legally allowed under every American's first amendment rights. Therefore Epik believes every American deserves a chance to engage in hate speech.

This is disappointing.

 

[MadAboutDomains]

The reality is that services like Whatsapp, Twitter, Faceache, snap, insta host exactly the same bad stuff as everyone else. It's just that the media and the giant corps decide to highlight the bad stuff when it comes to rival services like gab, infowars etc. by banning them from their own app stores/services when the mob comes knocking. Generally the things that they accuse these services of will take 2 seconds to find on their own services as well.

Unfortunately it isn't possible to police everyone's speech on the Internet, it's a nice aspiration but it's impossible. Holding every service to such a high standard stifles innovation. The small guys don't have the resources that the big guys do and those that do have the resources, no matter what they do it seems to fail to satisfy everyone, the speech sanitisation bar gets lifted higher and higher every day.

Life isn't like that - it contains bad stuff. Companies can't shield you from bad things all the time in real life or online and unless it's illegal in my mind they shouldn't bother.

In truth is that the big guys like holding themselves to higher and higher levels of speech control and they want regulation, it will prevent new services entering the market because they'll have to meet such regulations first thus preventing their loss of dominance.

I am still waiting on Epik's list of actions they plan to take...

I'm not holding my breath that any of the companies that decided to jump on this particular bandwagon to do anything. In most cases just kids managing their social media feeds espousing meaningless platitudes to appease today's particular mob.

The aspiration is great, the reality is nothing achieved other than alienating a section of the population.

 

[Joe N]

Companies and people who are in a position to effect meaningful change need be better than this:

Laws are imperfect. Laws can be unjust. History has proven this time and time again.

Unjust laws will only change when people are brave enough to stand together against them.

It's disappointing to me that Epik's bravery is so lacking on this front.

 

[Woke Monkey]

No one can take the moral high ground here.

We ALL have inherited biases.

Those aware of this don’t criticise, they help those who are honest and willing to facilitate change.

 

[Rob Monster]

Unjust laws will only change when people are brave enough to stand together against them.

It's disappointing to me that Epik's bravery is so lacking on this front.

I think I am missing context. Perhaps unpack this for us. What law did you wish for us to fight this week?

 

[Rob Monster]

Rob and Epik put themselves in this position with their (poor) decisions.

Take accountability. Take responsibility. Take action to fix it.

Brad

Judge not, lest ye be judged. See Matthew 7:1-5 for context. Or you can learn it the hard way. Your call.

First of all, we are all works in progress, including Epik, its staff and me. The industry is also a work in progress. Did anyone expect this one today?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1271497235268866052

If your objective is to turn this positive thread into a struggle session for Epik, I am likely to disappoint you.

The point of the statement is to engage with compassion and love.

We can do all more of that, including you.

As for Wikipedia, there is a dedicated thread about it.

As for right wing sites, we don't court them. In fact, we turn many of them away.

If you want to have a call to discuss specific cases, happy to do that and report back to the group, as I surely lack context, e.g. never heard of "Charizard".

Here was my related comment:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1270740471590072322

 

[Michael M]

They should stop feeding their trolls and haters and hire a decent PR guy. If you want to mix business with religion and politics you better make sure you find common ground and try to unite people.

So some people at Epik made some (arguably) racists comments. It's highly unlikely their empty words (in reverence to their press release) will change anyone's mind. Time wasted. Trolls fed. More bad press.

It's really just that simple.

I see your point, and don't disagree that a shorter sweeter statement would have probably been the best direction to go with this one. But, I still think that would have been enough food (or maybe lack of enough) for the people who replied regardless.

But being a domain forum, I can always have hope maybe we can lower the tone a little and stay on topic in the future. Talks on politics never end up going well here.

 

[dna]

s Epik still going to not only host, but court the far right wing extremists, which often include racism as shown over and over again?

Even racists have the right to free speech. But racists are not really the target as bmugford
shows us. He also wants to silence "far right extremists." I suspect that bmugford would be
quick to define almost any Republican as a far right extremist. A Registrar is just a register
for domain names and should not interfere with any legal speech in the domain names
in its registry.

 

[bmugford]

Even racists have the right to free speech. But racists are not really the target as bmugford
shows us. He also wants to silence "far right extremists." I suspect that bmugford would be
quick to define almost any Republican as a far right extremist. A Registrar is just a register
for domain names and should not interfere with any legal speech in the domain names
in its registry.

You can suspect what you want. I believe in free speech.

I am however against people accepting disgusting, racist behavior under the guise of "free speech".

People have a right to criticize racism just as much as people have a right to spout it. I know which side I would rather be on.

If you are going to embrace racist people, then don't be surprised when people use their free speech when it comes to business, and refuse to do business with you.

I am still waiting on Epik's list of actions they plan to take...

Brad

 

[karmaco]

What action Samer? They are all flowery prose and pretty speech with action that at times looks bad to most outsiders. I don’t want a lecture, a prophet, religious convictions or politics pouring out of my registrar or as part of my business.

Epik seems hell bent (excuse the pun) on combining religious conviction and political stances and controversies into their business. Something most of us are wise enough not to combine.

Just be a good reliable registrar with transparency is all anybody wants. Stop being part of repeated controversies while at the same time preaching love. We don’t need a preacher we need a registrar who is not constantly in the middle of some controversy or another.

 

[bmugford]

Brad, to be fair, I don't see how Rob can respond to your charges unless you are more specific. Vague charges of racism are thrown about daily. What exactly has Epic done that contradicts Rob's statement?

From my point of view, free speech includes racist speech. All ideas on the table where they can be seen in the light. If one starts putting limits on free speech, it is no longer free. Understandably, there are exceptions (shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre), but these exceptions must be as few as possible and justified by stringent terms. Being unpalatable, offensive or hateful are not acceptable reasons to block free speech. All one achieves by silencing opposition, even opposition with disgusting ideas, is to create a pressure cooker where those ideas will explode. Unless one wants to be a Stalinist, and just kill them all.

This will be my last post on this.

In my view there have been a lot of scumbag moves involving racism, bullying, spreading conspiracy theories, etc. involving either Rob or Epik employees. Many of these controversial incidents have been highlighted on domain blogs, NamePros, or other media.

Just a few links -

(Spreading conspiracy theories and hosting a video of a mass murder)
http://domainincite.com/24077-after-nz-shooting-epik-has-a-monster-pr-problem

(Spreading conspiracy theories and bullying some random Wikipedia editor)
https://www.namepros.com/threads/epik-wikipedia-battle-is-full-on-right-now.1186029/

(Racist comments shown from Epik employees.)
https://www.namepros.com/threads/braden-pollock-steps-down-from-epik-bod.1194548/

I know Rob and his supporters will call this a "hit piece" to dismiss it, but you can make your own judgement - https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rob-monster-epik-gab-neo-nazi_n_5c17bb29e4b05d7e5d846f72

Let me be clear, people have the right to be a scumbag, just as other people have a right to call out this behavior.

Brad

 

[Arfy]

In a weird way, I wish all racists would come out from hiding and speak freely. But they are mostly cowards. They cant handle free speech right back at them.

The worst kind is institutional racism and disguised racism. Where everything in the system is poised against you and there is no way of proving it. If those at the top don't take action it slowly trickles down the hiearchy. I've been in a group of people during a work social (not current workplace) where they were making derogatory comments about Muslims and also blatant racial discrimination against Pakistan, not knowing I was a Muslim and my ethnic background is Pakistani. I let it go on for a few minutes and then I mentioned that they reminded me that I need to see my grandmother in Pakistan as its been a while.. with Eid coming up it would be a nice surprise. Their faces dropped and they apologized. Also a few of them told me how they have Pakistani / Muslim friends and hence the jokes (that old chestnut). I think that opened their eyes a little as we got on really well (still did afterwards).

What's sad is that one of them got promoted to a position where he might make recruitment decisions - that's what makes me angry. How will that influence recruitment of those that he speaks lowly of?

 

[BrandEntrance.com]

Please explain.

And how abouts did the corporation of the United States (or other parts of the world) become civilized?

Speaking to the USA, are we saying native Americans weren't civilized?

For other countries, was their indigenous population not civilized?

Who defines what is and whats not civilized?

Ok replace civilized with ordered as in not chaotic. And now you go to history. Well here is a free history lesson for you. The whole world was more violent before. All peoples have been conquered and all the countrries that exist today are born out of wars, invasions and revolution. We are all from slavery somewhere along the line.

But it's been getting better. The fact that we can discuss it is evidence of that.

 

[Rob Monster]

@Rob Monster
"What many will not know, is the depth and degree of active engagement and activities that Epik undertakes to combat racism and reduce the promotion of violence behind the scenes."

This desperately needs elaboration.

I really don't have much to say. It is probably obvious that I have avoided this thread because the moderators allowed a very thoughtful opening post devolve into dumpster fire.

Specific to your question, I will leave you with just simply this: I believe the world has been polarized, and that the polarity is literally tearing the world apart. I have studied it and see the obvious antidote: love.

When the ANTIFA folks started to attack me back in 2018, I offered to meet with them in person and talk through their concerns. They declined.

At the same time, as I got to know people from the right, I got to know them. Some of them were possible to engage.

The point is that there is unity in love. If someone goes and visits felons in prison, that does not mean they are a felon or an aspiring felon. The same goes for engaging racists, bigots and misogynists.

One example was used against me by Wikipedia by taking a little soundbite out of an interview. YouTube removed the full interview the SPLC milked it for a David Duke quote taken out of context.

Here is the full interview hosted on an indy site:

https://altcensored.com/watch?v=F8J9cihYmp4

The SPLC which wrote their talking points for the mass media relied heavily on that interview in crafting their hit piece:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2019/01/11/problem-epik-proportions

Fast forward from January 2019 to July 2020, and now we have gone from hurting people's feelings to literally burning elks in the Portland town square today:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1278592095222067201

It should be increasingly clear to anyone with a sound mind that this has nothing to do with race.

And if you let this keep rolling, you get a failed state like Venezuela, or worse. I have been to Venezuela. It was once lovely, and has incredible natural endowments, with which its citizens should be greatly blessed.

So, like it or not, civil liberties serve to provide checks and balances against systematic abuse of power. Free speech is also a framework for ending the polarity and reconnecting in compassion, love and truth.

My private conversations are not too different -- including with people that may have hate in their heart and who I have sought to defuse with love and logic and to avert civil war which serves no good.

 

[Chris Hydrick]

Show attachment 157796
Archived copy here: https://www.epik.com/equality

Seems more like a cult writer / sheep herd writing to me.

Actions > Words.