A couple of Good Reasons to Read the TOS Before Signing

[Grrilla]

I just got off the phone w/ a representative of American Express. My card had been charged, despite it being intentionally maxed out so that there would be no available credit for renewal of services- services that I did not want and didnot, obviously, wish to pay for.

Three new pieces of info, relative to TOS agreements for accounts involving recurring charges that I was presented with: (Note that "recurring charges" has been emphasized, as it applies specifically to these type of contracts and the ways in which they can be written up and interface w/ the CC company and it's computers.)

1) Your card can be charged, even if there is no available credit, which will leave you w/ a negative balance and the ensuing over limit fees.

2) You can still be charged, and will continue to be liable for payment of the charges, even if you have cancelled the credit card account! The credit card company will pay the company that you have the account and agreement with and become the payee, (and bill collector should you decide not to pay.)

3) Even if you have taken your credit card off of your online account as a means of payment, (ie you no longer authorize it's use), if you are set-up for recurring payments, and the TOS is written up the right way, it is possible for the company to revert to your unauthorized card, (the one you have disassociated from your account), and charge it.

Note: I have had all three of the above happen to me over the past 4-6 wks. I am not intentionally trying to dodge payment to anyone. However, there are some accounts w/ yearly renewals of services that I absolutely do not want from companies that have made it difficult to close down the account and the ensuing charges for unwanted products, (ie domain name renewals).

This morning's conversation was a real eye opener.

 

[ForSaleSign]

Sounds like very useful advice born from hard experience!
I can imagine this might also happen if a domain were sold, and ownership transferred, and my credit card beiing charged again!

 

[Grrilla]

Sounds like very useful advice born from hard experience!

Unfortunately, (for me), yes. I hope it helps some others. I've learned that the only way to control recurring fees is at the sites or w/ the companies that the account is held with. I, (thought), I did this, but a few slipped through the cracks and my stop gap moves, (ie eliminating credit card accounts/leaving the credit at max to avoid being charged), failed me. Again, I am not trying to avoid paying for something that I want. It's the charges for unwanted renewal of services from hidden or forgotten service agreements that I was trying to avoid. Because of B/O's, direct purchases etc, I have, over time, amassed accounts w/ 70-80-90 companies and, frankly, I've overlooked or forgotten some of the accounts and I definitely haven't always read what I was signing up for. How many people read every TOS they agree to- particularly w/ the myriad of registrars that win backorders or that hold names that have been purchased directly from a seller?

I can imagine this might also happen if a domain were sold, and ownership transferred, and my credit card beiing charged again!

That's a different situation. You would have a legitimate complaint and would receive a refund. I'm more concerned w/ avoiding "legitimate" charges to CC's that are no longer authorized to be used for renewal of contracts that I don't want renewed.

 

[RegFee]

You know what, now that I think about it, the first people I used to register domain names (freefontssearch.com, freefontsearch.com) was 1and1.com and I remember they have my credit card on file. I wonder if they are going to autorenew. Crap....thanks for reminding me!

edit: uh huh, from 1and1.com:

"If your domain is in on our registry, then we will automatically renew the domain onyour behalf just before the registration period is about to expire.

If the domain or the package the domain is in has been cancelled from our system prior to the domain expiration date, the domain will not be renewed. "

 

[Grrilla]

1&1? Ugh!! Check this out:

http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=117081

 

[Virgil]

Thanks for the info Grrilla; I was planning on taking a shortcut or two with difficult companies too; now I'll go the extra mile to be sure everything is canceled the proper way.

 

[RegFee]

1&1? Ugh!! Check this out:

http://www.namepros.com/showthread.php?t=117081

wtf...1and1 is BAAAAD news! Thanks for that link, I can't believe I never saw that. I saw the post you made on that thread about the maxing out your credit cards plan. Sorry it didn't work out for you.

rep added for the thread you linked to. thanks grilla

 

[Peter]

you should never really try this for any financial institution.

A while back a transaction of about £3 was attempted from my account, at the time I didn't have much money and it took me over my overdraft limit so the bank charged me £25 for the transaction and then declined to pay the £3 and of course the fee also took me over my limit so was charged again for going over my limit (think that was £25 as well). If you can't affod the original transaction what makes them think you can afford the fees.

The only real way to stop transactions on a credit card is to cancel it.

 

[.X.]

WHOA!! :red: Sorry to hear about that Grrilla.Seems as loop holes are actually our biggest enemy.

 

[Grrilla]

Sorry to hear about that Grrilla.Seems as loop holes are actually our biggest enemy.

I wasn't burned too badly, but I do appreciate the kind thoughts. The blame lies ultimately w/ me. I'm the one that aggreed to the terms of service agreements w/ the online businesses and the CC cos. Just because a guy knocks on my door to sell me snakeoil, doesn't mean that I have to buy from him or enter into a contract w/ him. I must say, however that I was blindsided and taken aback by the amount of leeway that CC cos and online businesses hasve regarding recurring payments. (See below)

The only real way to stop transactions on a credit card is to cancel it.

One of the points of my OP is that cancelling your card doesn't necessarily stop the charges from coming or your liability for making payment. I asked the AMEX rep point blank if a cancelled card could be charged and his answer was, "Yes. That is why we issue customers a caution, that although the account has been cancelled, there continues to be liability for any outstanding amounts." They and the online business consider a contract for a renewal of services or a recurring charge to be an "outstanding amount".

At one time I had two active American Express cards- personal and business. Although I cancelled one of them nearly 5 years ago, when I go online to my active AMRX acct, the "cancelled" acct continues to be listed, albeit it's listed as cancelled.

Here is a scenario that could take place. I have a credit card listed in #2 position, (#1,#2,#3- it doesn't matter), that I've cancelled w/ the credit card co. If the primary CC acct registered w/ the business is refused, (ie overlimit), the secondary card, although cancelled, can be charged because a recurring charges are considered to be "outstanding charges". Even if I've "de-authorized" the card and removed it's association w/ the online acct, the TOS can be structured in such a way, (by both the CC co [as in AMEX example ^] and vendor), that, (assuming the CC info is still in the DB of vendor), and despite it having been removed, the online vendor can revert to the old card, (2nd position), if the primary card is refused. They will get paid by the credit card company through the cancelled card and than the credit card company will put you into collections if you refuse to pay. This blows my mind!

A while back a transaction of about £3 was attempted from my account, at the time I didn't have much money and it took me over my overdraft limit so the bank charged me £25 for the transaction and then declined to pay the £3 and of course the fee also took me over my limit so was charged again for going over my limit (think that was £25 as well). If you can't affod the original transaction what makes them think you can afford the fees?

Banks and CC cos are counting on this and are receiving a large chunk of their overall revenue from overlimit fees and penalties. This is easy money for them.

I currently have CCs that are at a fixed 0% and 0.5% for the life of the cards. One of the terms of agreement is that if a, (1), payment is received late, (literally1 day late), a new percentage, ie 15% automatically kicks in. One of the cards must also be used, at least, once a month. The lendors are counting on a certain % of their customers to pay late or to forget to purchase something w/ the card during the course of a month so that they can bump the % rate. Like it or not, financial institutions live off of customer negligence and error. That is the nature of banks and lendors in todays economy. The dependence upon customer mistakes and forgetfulness also carries over to and applies to many online businesses, including some of the registrars we deal with.

 

[Xyzer]

Thanks for that information, i always read it anyway.

 

[Grrilla]

i always read it anyway.

Congrats. You are defenitely in the minority. Are you an attorney? Some of the phraseology and small print is difficult to ferret out.

 

[ralxz]

Ouch. Doesn't sound like too much fun :\