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Keith · Apr 4, 2019

@Jackson Elsegood
Regarding transaction 4532982 for CBDcity.com for $11,500...

The buyer took possession via push at godaddy and immediately requested that escrow cancel the deal. I’ve provided loads of email verification to escrow to show my position. Meanwhile they are asking me to work with the buyer to get the domain back.

I’ll need to be paid or I will take legal action. My suggestion is that escrow do a little homework to verify the account push. I’ve done too much business with you guys for you to put this back on me. The buyer is a scam artist and I won’t play games!

wwwweb · Apr 5, 2019

Shimmy said:
For what possible reason? Low 5 figures is not a big sale. Normal Escrow works smoothly 99.99% of the time in this situation. When it doesn't Escrow.com needs to be contacted, and after some frustration it works out. You want to throw more dollars at Escrow.com so they do their job? Stopping attempted theft is supposed to be done at a basic level. As such it did. The only problem here was lazy Escrow.com employees. If Escrow.com employees were not being lazy, there would be no posting here, and seller would have been paid after the investigation

I paid for escrow fees, and concierge on a $30K sale, and it cost me a total of $534, Low 5 figures is a big sale, that is why he is saying transfer my money, otherwise if buyer doesn't want it, they are within their inspection period to kill the deal. I guess maybe in this canna so called space you have to tread a bit more carefully than you did with techies. I agree with everything you say, but that is in a perfect world, and we don't live in a perfect world. I mean if the fees were about $300 for concierge to avoid this headache, I am sure the seller has spent more than that in their time dealing with this in frustration. I think a good majority of sellers here would have opted for concierge in this given situation. Yes, you can save a few bucks by not using it, but I am sure Keith is making a decent margin, that he would want to speed up the closing, and take away some of the post transfer frustration which would have avoided this whole scenario. I understand this thread is more about what happend in terms of support after the sale, but that in itself is within the corporate structure, and hopefully this is a learning moment.

The actions of the buyer are not escrows fault, nor the sellers, it is simply the buyer, and whatever reason they thought they could get away with this perfect plan. Given the situation, it has gone past both parties talking to each other, the transaction needed to be put on hold, and investigated. The confirmation emails, and maybe giving permission to an account manager to talk to escrow regarding the confirmation of transfer, and take it from there.

xynames · Apr 5, 2019

Exactly. Buyer would have been within his rights to cancel escrow. Only wwwweb and I seem to comprehend this. Buyer would have had to return the domain is all.

At no point during any of this was escrow going to refund money to the buyer while buyer was holding the domain. Indeed at no point in any of this was escrow going to return money to buyer while seller was even merely claiming that he had already transferred domain. Escrow.com was not acting like a “thief promoter” that is absurdly wrong to characterize it like that.

When escrow.com asked seller to contact buyer to ask for return of the domain this was pursuant to buyer’s request to cancel escrow which - as I’ve been trying to say from the beginning - is not a theft attempt it is merely a fact of the way escrow functions - buyer always has an inspection period and right to cancel.

The liquidated damages (what you gotta cough up if you fail to perform) for cancelling are basically “escrow fees” - buyer remains on the hook for these if he cancels.

I believe that escrow.com terms state clearly that they will not act to enforce specifically an agreement (to force buyer to pay or force seller to deliver). Their usual role is only to transfer / deliver funds after buyer and seller both agree that it is okay to do so.

As a seller I would have been upset in this situation described here for sure too. But here in this instance doesn’t mean that buyer was trying to get the domain for free. At worst buyer was trying to get out of the deal. Plus as noted he would’ve still had to pay escrow costs.

Calling buyer a thief. Calling escrow.com a thief promoter - unwarranted.

Step back and think a little about the Contract that you enter into with buyer seller and escrow before pointing fingers. It’s all there in black and white including right to cancel.

When buyer (1) invoked right to cancel and (2) seller claimed that domain was already with buyer, it was a reasonable request from escrow to ask seller to facilitate return of the domain to buyer. I agree I’d be incensed too if escrow made it seem like I had to get the domain back after buyer cancelled but I’ll tell you what - if buyer had dug in his heels and insisted on cancellation at the end of the day the money would have sat in escrow until seller got the domain back and it would have been seller’s legal responsibility to get the domain back (not escrow’s).

Recons.Com · Apr 5, 2019

Why are you guys complicating things?

here are the facts, as offered by OP and not disputed by escrow.com:

- when instructed by escrow.com, he pushed the name to buyer and marked the transaction accordingly

- seller accepted the name at registrar (names just don't move without it), but then went on to cancel transaction first denying the receipt of the name and then basically claiming that his account has been hacked

- buyer tries to work with escrow, provides all proof needed, but escrow tells him that they will not help and he has to sort it out with the buyer.

- seller opens the thread and rightfully titles it "escrow.com protecting a thief...".

- After the involvement of CEO of escrow.com, the issue gets resolved

- Seller gracefully requests NP to change the title or remove the thread, as the issue resolved. This doesn't mean that seller is wrong, or had judgement rush or anything. He is just not holding the grudge and appreciating the help, albeit late and forced.

Claiming by some members that "buyer accepted the deal and that means they were not stealing" is completely wrong. Buyer was forced to accept the deal, as their money was locked anyway and all the facts were against them.

Keith · Apr 5, 2019

xynames said:
Exactly. Buyer would have been within his rights to cancel escrow. Only wwwweb and I seem to comprehend this. Buyer would have had to return the domain is all.

At no point during any of this was escrow going to refund money to the buyer while buyer was holding the domain. Indeed at no point in any of this was escrow going to return money to buyer while seller was even merely claiming that he had already transferred domain. Escrow.com was not acting like a “thief promoter” that is absurdly wrong to characterize it like that.

When escrow.com asked seller to contact buyer to ask for return of the domain this was pursuant to buyer’s request to cancel escrow which - as I’ve been trying to say from the beginning - is not a theft attempt it is merely a fact of the way escrow functions - buyer always has an inspection period and right to cancel.

The liquidated damages (what you gotta cough up if you fail to perform) for cancelling are basically “escrow fees” - buyer remains on the hook for these if he cancels.

As a seller I would have been upset in this situation described here for sure too. But here in this instance doesn’t mean that buyer was trying to get the domain for free. At worst buyer was trying to get out of the deal. Plus as noted he would’ve still had to pay escrow costs.

Calling buyer a thief. Calling escrow.com a thief promoter - unwarranted.

Step back and think a little about the Contract that you enter into with buyer seller and escrow before pointing fingers. It’s all there in black and white including right to cancel.

When buyer (1) invoked right to cancel and (2) seller claimed that domain was already with buyer, it was a reasonable request from escrow to facilitate return of the domain to buyer.

Just about everything you just posted is wrong. For one, the inspection period is really in place for tangible goods. With domains there is nothing to inspect. You either take possession or you don’t.

In this case the buyer took possession and knew ahead of time exactly what they were agreeing to take...

Shimmy · Apr 5, 2019

wwwweb said:
if the fees were about $300 for concierge to avoid this headache, I am sure the seller has spent more than that in their time dealing with this in frustration.

This is the rare occasion that there was a headache. The vast majority of the time transactions go smoother. $300 extra for 1 sale is not a big deal, but if you average 1 escrow transactions a month in the in the 10k range then that $300/extra per sale equals $3600 per year. It doesn't matter the margin, throwing away $3600 is just dumb. I'll take a 1 day headache over throwing away $3600.

wwwweb · Apr 5, 2019

Keith said:
Just about everything you just posted is wrong. For one, the inspection period is really in place for tangible goods. With domains there is nothing to inspect. You either take possession or you don’t.

In this case the buyer took possession and knew ahead of time exactly what they were agreeing to take...

Legally within the contract of escrow buyer can still cancel within the inspection period. I agree it is more for artwork, and vehicles, but contractually the buyer has the right to cancel within that period, as long as they return the domain. Whether they knew that or not, or made up this hacking story to try, and get out of a deal, whose to say what is going on in their mind at this point. Certainly they are engaged enough to wire 5 figures to escrow, maybe something better came along, or maybe they thought they could have their cake, and eat it too, there are so many scenarios, so many characters really takes both sides to make sense of the situation.

xynames · Apr 5, 2019

Keith: that’s where you’re wrong. Or rather - where you (and all of us domainers) wish you were right. Sadly, it’s not the case.

Unfortunately specific performance is not something you may ask escrow to undertake. If you feel that buyer is trying to get out of some kind of contract it’s up to you to enforce it specifically. Not up to escrow.

The legal right of cancellation in any escrow.com transaction is there. Including domains.

So when escrow advised you to try to get the domain back after buyer tried to cancel, this was not “thief promotion” - this was reality.

Believe me pal if buyer had stuck to trying to cancel it would have been your job to get that domain back, or sue buyer for specific performance. In the meantime escrow would have frozen funds pending either mutual agreement by buyer and seller, or court order.

If there is one valid lesson we might all learn from this thread it’s the reality of who is responsible in a typical regular escrow for making sure the deal goes through as far as transfer and acceptance of whatever is being sold - buyer and seller (not escrow).

wwwweb · Apr 5, 2019

Shimmy said:
This is the rare occasion that there was a headache. The vast majority of the time transactions go smoother. $300 extra for 1 sale is not a big deal, but if you average 1 escrow transactions a month in the in the 10k range then that $300/extra per sale equals $3600 per year. It doesn't matter the margin, throwing away $3600 is just dumb. I'll take a 1 day headache over throwing away $3600.

It's called the cost of doing business, and that would be for the entire transaction. Paying $300 for someone to handle a $11K sale in the grand scheme of business out there is not over the top. In a perfect world I would love to pay $0 fees also, but concierge can only be used when you are doing a push at the same register. Usually you can pick up if someone is easy to work with during talks, if the negotiations have been difficult, or they are from a foreign country then concierge is a good idea.

Shimmy · Apr 5, 2019

It's not the cost of doin business. I did the exact same business and didn't have to spend $3600/year and was 100% equally safe. I just had a 1 day headache. If a buyer ever seemed shady sure I'd do it then, but otherwise, money in the trash

EbookLover · Apr 5, 2019

Keith said:
Just about everything you just posted is wrong. For one, the inspection period is really in place for tangible goods. With domains there is nothing to inspect. You either take possession or you don’t.

In this case the buyer took possession and knew ahead of time exactly what they were agreeing to take...

Don't forget, though, domains could require an inspection period if the domain has traffic and you and the buyer agree that he can "taste" the traffic for X amount of days while the domain is in his (the buyer's) possession before the deal is finalized in the escrow UI.

This was not relevant to your transaction, though.

Good luck to everyone in this thread.

xynames · Apr 5, 2019

xynames said:
Keith: that’s where you’re wrong. Or rather - where you (and all of us domainers) wish you were right. Sadly, it’s not the case.

The legal right of cancellation in any escrow.com transaction is there. Including domains.

BaileyUK · Apr 6, 2019

xynames said:
The legal right of cancellation in any escrow.com transaction is there. Including domains

An aspect that I'm sure not many of us have thought about, I will certainly try to nail that down If and When I ever go via escrow.com

Jv1999 · Apr 6, 2019

This is ridiculous. This is why ppl should use undeveloped... people say that Escrow.com charges a lower %, but now we know why! It's because their NORMAL service isn't even an escrow service!!

Th eyre supposed to take the money and the domain, then release money to seller and the domain to the buyer.

What is this weird half-escrow service where they take money and then have this huge area of risk where seller transfers the domain and buyer has the ultimate power to validate whether the transfer happened or not!??!?

You use an escrow service because you don't trust who youre doing business with. Why should that person dictate whether the transaction is successful or not!? I don't understand at all.

And the only people who are saying there was no attempted theft (even though there clearly was) are the same people who are blindly backing escrow,com usage and demonizing undeveloped,com in other threads,..

xynames · Apr 6, 2019

I think you’ll be disappointed if you think things would go any differently at any escrow or escrow like service. If buyer wants to cancel and pushes that desire to cancel at any point before buyer gives consent to release of funds to seller, there’s going to be a fight and the escrow service whether it’s escrow.com or UNDeveloped is not going to take sides. Escrow will remain neutral and freeze funds - meantime Buyer and seller will have to fight it out between them.

You’re naive if you think otherwise.

Jv1999 · Apr 6, 2019

xynames said:
I think you’ll be disappointed if you think things would go any differently at any escrow or escrow like service. If buyer wants to cancel and pushes that desire to cancel at any point before buyer gives consent to release of funds to seller, there’s going to be a fight and the escrow service whether it’s escrow.com or UNDeveloped is not going to take sides. Escrow will remain neutral and freeze funds - meantime Buyer and seller will have to fight it out between them.

You’re naive if you think otherwise.

No. I have received numerous assurances from Undeveloped that after the buyer pays, there is virtually no way the buyer can cancel unless the seller can't deliver the domain... or there's some kind of buyer payment fraud. Undeveloped is loyal to their customers, unlike Escrow.com that literally asked the seller to ask the buyer for the domain back lololol. How does that even happen in an escrow situation... Undeveloped won't even let you talk to the buyer anymore once the transaction has started. They'll only release the buyer's info if the buyer fails to pay and the deal seems crashed.

xynames · Apr 6, 2019

Wait until it happens, then come forth.

I doubt anyone could have predicted what did or could have happened here either, I mean, without knowing exactly what escrow.com 's TOS are that is. And escrow.com 's TOS do allow for cancellation I mean obviously, otherwise what's the point of an "approval" or "inspection period" ?

Even though UNDeveloped's TOS might state that no way to cancel, yes, I agree, that's a plus for the seller, still there are unanticipated things that might supersede these TOS.

Domains - Wanted · Apr 6, 2019

xynames said:
I think you’ll be disappointed if you think things would go any differently at any escrow or escrow like service...

Clearly you have no experience with other escrow services. Recommend you try Epik to expand your horizons. Once they receive funds from a buyer, they push the domain to buyer's account. Transaction ended.

If buyer wants to cancel and pushes that desire to cancel at any point before buyer gives consent to release of funds to seller, there’s going to be a fight and the escrow service whether it’s escrow.com or UNDeveloped is not going to take sides. Escrow will remain neutral and freeze funds - meantime Buyer and seller will have to fight it out between them.

I'm with @Jv1999 here: that's a mess, not proper escrow. The time for a buyer to change his/her mind is before initiating an escrow transaction and sending money!

xynames · Apr 6, 2019

In the event of a dispute is when you may say that things will or will not go a certain way. Not necessarily before.

As well, for a lot of reasons, people don't want to deal with Epik. Lot of hurdles just to get the free escrow services for NP Members, we have gone over this many times.

I also read this, perhaps unclear what it means: Maybe you may tell me?
http://www.epik.com/services/escrow/
EPIK
Cancellation policies
Both parties have the right to cancel the transaction without penalties, until the escrow is concluded. If buyer has already submitted payment, Epik will reimburse.*

*In any case of cancellation that requires a reimbursement, Epik reserves the right to deduct escrow fees in addition to any other applicable penalties and fees, regardless of who requested the cancellation.

"Until the escrow is concluded" sounds to me like..."Until the escrow is concluded." especially when you couple it with the sentence about "if buyer has already submitted payment" it sounds like cancellation may be effected at Epik by either party, even after buyer has already submitted payment.

Especially when Epik refers to "deduct[ing] escrow fees" after cancellation. What is there to deduct cancellation fees from, unless...buyer has already paid? But, you tell me how you read it....

Anyway, you guys go where you feel comfortable. UNDeveloped isn't even licensed or bonded as an escrow (they have a sort of shell game going where they separate their escrow and domain business so that if escrow is sued it will simply claim no assets), and I don't think Epik is either, so at the end of the day, neither is even insured for the unexpected. At least escrow.com is a real escrow, licensed and bonded.

As far as the legal definition is concerned, neither UNDeveloped nor Epik are "proper" escrows they conduct their business by claiming, legally speaking, that they are "not escrows" to avoid having to license or bond.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Domains - Wanted · Apr 6, 2019

xynames said:
..."Until the escrow is concluded" sounds to me like..."Until the escrow is concluded." especially when you couple it with the sentence about "if buyer has already submitted payment" it sounds like cancellation may be effected at Epik by either party, even after buyer has already submitted payment... But, you tell me how you read it...

Here's how I read it:

1) I transfer the domain to Epik...

2) I initiate the so-called escrow transaction...

3) Buyer pays money to Epik...

4) Here's where things get interesting... Immediately thereafter (within minutes), Epik pushes the domain to buyer's account...

5) Immediately thereafter (within minutes), Epik credits money to my account... transaction concluded

I agree: Epik has a lot of useless, cover their ass, terms in their TOS; a lot of it goes in the face of what Rob advertises, but legal counsel must have insisted... but it's useless, as in impractical, as there's simply no time for the buyer to excercise such an option

...As far as the legal definition is concerned, neither UNDeveloped nor Epik are "proper" escrows they conduct their business by claiming, legally speaking, that they are "not escrows" to avoid having to license or bond.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Yep. All true. And that's what I'm doing: going with the safer, pretty much surefire option, instead of Escrow.com, which runs for the hills, taking their licence and bond with them, leaving you hanging at the first sign of trouble!

karmaco · Apr 6, 2019

Josh R said:
I understand Keiths position, and may have done the same thing if I didn't have a direct contact that could solve the issue.

The problem with creating threads like this is that it harms our ability to use Escrow.com in the future.

I'm currently closing a mid 5 figure deal that was very tough to get done because of all the bad PR and reviews that Escrow.com have.

So not all of us have a person at Escrow and only get fast assistance with a problem if we complain here at NP.

Sorry that people reporting problems with Escrow here is inconveniencing you but their bad rep is their own doing.

Ategy · Apr 6, 2019

I think the confusion with Escrow is that it's more a of logic flaw within their platform .. I think they count the transaction day as a day. So yes inspection period looks like "one" day .. but it's actually zero. Or more specifically, the number of days indicated rounded down to the nearest Day + 1 second .. so "1 Day" is effectively "0 days + 1 second".

What I'm trying to say makes more sense when talking about more days (as I think would be more normal with physical products. For example, "2 Days" would include the current day and the following day, so effectively 1 day + 1 second (more or less). Obviously with the international nature of domain sales it can't even really be set to "midnight". Hope that all made sense? lol

At least that was my impression as I'm pretty sure (not 100%) that one of my prior transactions, the inspection period was closer to 0 hours than it was 24 hours. I really don't remember the exact time .. but I just remember thinking that indeed the "one day" was just a logic flaw (not really a bug .. but kinda).

I'm thinking maybe it was a result them having one platform for all their transactions including physical products.

Besides .. if that were really the case where they could cancel within a "FULL" day, there would need to be notices to not do any push or transfer with a 60 day lock .. otherwise the buyer could never give the domain back in a day. But at the same time I think doing a push/transfer with the 60 day lock is far and away your best protection as a seller. Because in cases like this one, Escrow would have 60 days to figure it all out with the registrars involved ... otherwise the domain would be gone, re-transferred to some registrar overseas.

Anyhow .. rather than speculating, guessing or arguing .. how about we simply ask Escrow what "1 day inspection period" actually means EXACTLY? (@Jackson Elsegood? What say you on this matter? lol)

ben pedri · Apr 6, 2019

Keith said:
@Jackson Elsegood
Regarding transaction 4532982 for CBDcity.com for $11,500...

The buyer took possession via push at godaddy and immediately requested that escrow cancel the deal. I’ve provided loads of email verification to escrow to show my position. Meanwhile they are asking me to work with the buyer to get the domain back.

I’ll need to be paid or I will take legal action. My suggestion is that escrow do a little homework to verify the account push. I’ve done too much business with you guys for you to put this back on me. The buyer is a scam artist and I won’t play games![/QUO
I don't know how in hell they just refund the money when they asked you to push the domaim sure escrow does at least 50 percent of its business selling domains but every time I use them it sees like they don't get it. Ship domain only to this address ,it makes no sense. I think they should refund you the money and get it back from them. I also think that with all your proof and escrows help verisgn and icann have no choice but to pull the domain back from the so called buyer,this is actually a criminal act,now classified as a stolen domain.I think for the little amount escrow charges there is no way they can do what they say.I know many ways their system can be beat by the buyer and seller,after reading your problem I think I'm done with them on big transactions.Im gonna stick with godaddy and give them 20 percent and raise the price of the domains a bit ,Once they hold that money they should make sure both sides agree that funds and the domain is back where it belongs,be careful now this guy may try to sell the domain just to get it out of his hands contact icann and verisign and put a freeze on domain so it cant be transferred again to another party

Josh R · Apr 6, 2019

karmaco said:
So not all of us have a person at Escrow and only get fast assistance with a problem if we complain here at NP.

Sorry that people reporting problems with Escrow here is inconveniencing you but their bad rep is their own doing.

• I also don’t have a direct contact at Escrow but I probably would have privately contacted Jackson first.

• A public thread that says “Escrow.com is protecting a thief” is inconveniencing every person that sells domains through them I think you mean.

• Yep. It’s their fault. Did I say otherwise?

I think that when threads like these are solved quickly, NamePros should close the thread so that it doesn’t show up in search engines...

Side note: I’ve never had an issue with Escrow.com but may have to look for alternatives if their reputation hurts my ability to get a deal done. Hopefully the can invest in some good PR as they have been instrumental in most of the industries largest domain transactions.

Domains - Wanted · Apr 6, 2019

Josh R said:
...A public thread that says “Escrow.com is protecting a thief” is inconveniencing every person that sells domains through them I think you mean...

I think you should contact @Jackson Elsegood and take this up with him. Nice of him to intervene and get this particular case resolved. Which doesn't change the fact that Escrow.com's TOS, procedures and their customer support leave much to be desired. And that's on @Jackson Elsegood, not @Keith.

I think that when threads like these are solved quickly, NamePros should close the thread so that it doesn’t show up in search engines...

I couldn't disagree more. Change the thread title to something less inflamatory - yes! Sweep an Escrow.com issue (that's likely to be repeated) under the carpet - NO WAY!

Full disclosure: I don't have a hard-on against Escrow.com. I have not had any bad experience with them personally. Repeating threads with horror stories about Escrow.com staff incompetence and disregard for their paying customers' interests made me stay away. So, no hard feelings on my part. However, I am strongly against sweeping this under the carpet. Simply because once you start on that road, it's hard to know where to draw the line!

Josh R · Apr 6, 2019

Domains - Wanted said:
I think you should contact @Jackson Elsegood and take this up with him. Nice of him to intervene and get this particular case resolved. Which doesn't change the fact that Escrow.com's TOS, procedures and their customer support leave much to be desired. And that's on @Jackson Elsegood, not @Keith.

I couldn't disagree more. Change the thread title to something less inflamatory - yes! Sweep an Escrow.com issue (that's likely to be repeated) under the carpet - NO WAY!

Full disclosure: I don't have a hard-on against Escrow.com. I have not had any bad experience with them personally. Repeating threads with horror stories about Escrow.com staff incompetence and disregard for their paying customers' interests made me stay away. So, no hard feelings on my part. However, I am strongly against sweeping this under the carpet. Simply because once you start on that road, it's hard to know where to draw the line!

I don’t mean sweep it under the carpet by any means. Just close threads like these that have been resolved.

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