Resolved

[Keith]

@Jackson Elsegood
Regarding transaction 4532982 for CBDcity.com for $11,500...

The buyer took possession via push at godaddy and immediately requested that escrow cancel the deal. I’ve provided loads of email verification to escrow to show my position. Meanwhile they are asking me to work with the buyer to get the domain back.

I’ll need to be paid or I will take legal action. My suggestion is that escrow do a little homework to verify the account push. I’ve done too much business with you guys for you to put this back on me. The buyer is a scam artist and I won’t play games!

 

[Keith]

Keith, I suggest you not use escrow.com again until you read their TOS.

Thanks for creating a thread where the rest of us learned what those TOS are.

I’ve never read a TOS in my life. And apparently escrow wasn’t eager to enforce their own contract.

 

[uzver]

I immediately called godaddy premiere services and was told they would not provide any info to escrow. They wouldn’t give me any info of the buyer either.

I will try to find relevant email correspondence later and post it here. I asked them many times just to avoid situations like yours (I had bad experience with Flippa Escrow in the past).

 

[xynames]

I’ve never read a TOS in my life. And apparently escrow wasn’t eager to enforce their own contract.

That's the way you look at it, because you don't know what their TOS are.

And that isn't going to change, is it.

 

[Internet.Domains]

I learned from Escrow.com rep that they have connections with GoDaddy

What? Connections?........I believe this subject needs some clarity. What about registrars with no connections?

 

[uzver]

What? Connections?........I believe this subject needs some clarity. What about registrars with no connections?

Well, that was my question too:

how would you verify that the buyer received the domain? I had a few transactions with Escrow.com previously, but most of the recent transactions were pushes from one Godaddy account to another. And I know that Escrow.com has some good connections with Godaddy that allow you to verify where the domain was transferred.

But how would you verify the transfer of the domain in the following scenario (which mimics current transaction):
the domain is at NameBright, and I will send an Auth Code to the buyer. Once the buyer initiates the transfer at gaining registrar (let's assume it's not a GoDaddy), NameBright will send me an approval request without any details of the buyer (see attached email sample). So the domain can be picked anywhere by anyone. How would you protect the seller against possible fraud?

And their answer was:

Please ensure that when transferring the domain it would match the email address on record for the buyer. If the domain is to be transferred to a different email address other than what's used in the buyer's escrow email address, we will be needing both parties' confirmation via email for documentation. For tracking, we will rely on whois information, for domains who's information is privatized we will require a transfer confirmation from the seller's registrar. If the whois info and transfer confirmation are both unavailable, we will be relying on the buyer's update on the transaction by clicking "received" and "accept. Updating the transaction is the buyer and the seller's responsibility per general provision of the general escrow instruction

https://www.escrow.com/escrow-101/general-escrow-instructions

 

[KWNG]

Its unfortunate that Keith had to go through this. I’ve learnt heaps from this thread. I will never push a domain ever again.

 

[Keith]

Its unfortunate that Keith had to go through this. I’ve learnt heaps from this thread. I will never push a domain ever again.

Now imagine if the buyer requested a transfer to another registrar. There is no way to undo that. I’m realizing how flawed the process at escrow is.

That said, there are ways to take precaution and one is concierge. Yes it’s expensive but I’d put that cost on the buyer...

 

[Jv1999]

Now imagine if the buyer requested a transfer to another registrar. There is no way to undo that. I’m realizing how flawed the process at escrow is.

That said, there are ways to take precaution and one is concierge. Yes it’s expensive but I’d put that cost on the buyer...

Tbh, I'm a bit rusty with contracts law. But it seems like xynames is right. If he quoted their tos right, escrow.cok allows for buyer to return the domain during t the inspection period.

But then there are contracts where someone is selling a house or something, and the courts would enforce a sales agreement despite the buyer not wanting to go through with the deal (even if they didn't pay yet) -- as long as there's an offer, acceptance, and consideration.

So on one hand, there's escrow.cock's random "return policy" that the seller might never had in place when they made a contract with the buyer (e.g, no returns)

I mean, you have the buyer already having paid. And the seller already having sent the domain... And there's no foul play on either side. I mean, that's legit already a done transaction. For escrow.coj to hold the money and undo the transaction that's significantly completed in the eyes of the law... it's just ridiculous.

Anyway, it's probably better if you had let the buyer transfer out. Because that way it's harder for buyer to return the domain, and you can make an excuse that the registrar is a dangerous one and they have fkd u in the past. So no you will not create an acct there. Then they'd be forced to give you your money because buyer can't return the domain within 10 days

I'M JUST GLAD UNDEVELOPED DOESN'T HAVE THIS RETURN POLICY. THEY GIVE YOU THE MONEY EVEN WHILE THE DOMAIN IS IN THEIR ESCROW ACCOUNT AND NOT THE BUYER'S ACCOUNT YET.

 

[forge]

What? Connections?........I believe this subject needs some clarity. What about registrars with no connections?

All GoDaddy auctions (and I believe BIN sales) with a final value over $5,000 go directly to Escrow.com. And GoDaddy's commission on the sale is automatically deducted from the seller's proceeds before Escrow.com completes the transaction. That's an insane amount of business. So there's that.

 

[kam]

I use escrow.com to close many of my deals.

I use standard service when I knew the buyer really well. But most of the time I use concierge service only.

It's because when you're using the standard service. The buyer will have an opportunity to cancel the deal at the very final moment. It provide a chance for the buyer to withdraw the transaction at the time frame of inspection period. It is well-documented in the TOS.

 

[xynames]

Also, speaking to what happened here...IF the buyer were in fact dishonest (and clever), a seller who knew the escrow.com TOS and remained calm would have a leg up over a seller who got hysterical and stated categorically that he would not accept the return of the domain.

Let's say this happened:

1. Buyer makes payment.
2. Seller transfers (or pushes, makes no difference really) domain to Buyer.
3. Buyer refuses to acknowledge acceptance of the domain and states that he wants to cancel the escrow.

Buyer at this point is obligated by the TOS to return the domain to seller, in order to get his payment refunded. And according to the TOS he must do so within ten business days.

The hysterical Seller raises a fuss, says that he will not take this sh*t, and states on the record to escrow that he will not accept the domain back, that he won't be pushed around.

So...now that it's on the record that return of domain is impossible, that seller will not cooperate with return of domain, escrow has no choice but to freeze funds pending resolution of the stand off. Things could get really bad for the seller if he keeps refusing to accept the domain back; the buyer could sue to get his deposit back, and the domain could end up in a sort of escrow / trust, pending resolution, for who knows how long. Seller, by violating TOS, could end up liable for buyer's attorney fees, leaving him holding the bag with a judgment against him.

In meantime, a clever but dishonest Buyer has use of the domain, and his money is held up, but he knows he'll get the money back eventually and in the meantime has free use of the domain. He might even end up with a judgment against the stubborn seller that will get him his money back, and the domain (the dollar amount of the judgment might end up payable by a writ of execution against the domain).

A smarter, calmer seller whose goal was to get paid for the domain, would never state something as obstructive and violative of the TOS as that he will never accept the domain back. He would just pretend to go along with the process, and then after the ten days have passed, escrow would have to release funds to him, per its TOS. I'm not condoning this sort of seller behavior, but I am saying that calm minds that follow the law or at least appear to follow the law usually prevail.

When the law (the TOS) are on the buyer's side (allowing buyer to cancel), then the seller should be smarter about giving escrow an excuse to freeze funds, or for buyer to sue him for violating their contract.

Cooler heads usually prevail.

 

[Domains - Wanted]

Okay, let's summarize...

If you want to read the TOS,
https://www.escrow.com/escrow-101/general-escrow-instructions...
...During the Buyer Inspection Period, Buyer may reject for any reason by selecting the "Reject" button on the Escrow.com site and following all other instructions to properly reject the merchandise...

and

...Buyer agrees to promptly ship goods to Seller within ten (10) calendar days...

and

...Buyer is aware that regardless of the reason for rejection, Escrowed Property must be returned to the Seller in order for funds to be returned to the Buyer...

and

...In Transactions where the Escrowed Property is a domain name, if a Buyer rejects a domain name (...) within the Inspection Period, return of the domain name from Buyer to Seller must be initiated within ten (10) days of Buyer's rejection...

and

Failure of Buyer to reject or initiate return of the domain name within the specified time periods will cause the Escrow Holder to automatically pay the Seller the purchase price...

I think the above excerpts summarize things well. I was not aware of all this. Many thanks to @Keith and @xynames both for this valuable thread

@xynames: all the more reason to keep the thread!

@Keith: knowing the above now, I think you will agree that you had overreacted. This said, nothing in Escrow.com's TOS says that it is your (the Seller's) responsibility to initiate communication with the Buyer and push him/her to return the domain, as instructed by Escrow.com's incompetent support staff (according to your OP). On the contrary, Escrow.com's TOS clearly stipulates that is the Buyer's responsibility. It's in the Seller's best interest to shut up, sit tight and wait 10 days after receiving notification from Escrow.com. Then it's a done deal and Escrow.com is duty bound to release the money to the Seller.

@Rob Monster: Escrow.com's TOS and this case study pretty much explains @Jackson Elsegood's panic and actions undertaken to discredit and disrupt Epik's business in this area. Your not charging a fee for your concierge level service, disrupting Escrow.com's decades long near-monopoly must drive Jackson to tears, or worse... I'd hire some bodyguards if I were you, Rob

@Jackson Elsegood: why you insist on being the only dinosaur on the block is beyond me! Why not use your superior position and fight Epik and others tooth and nail, but using a carrot, that's to say make your concierge service standard? As things stand, you're looking more and more like the brainless school bully, instead of the escrow service in a class of it's own that Escrow.com used to be

 

[offthehandle]

Oh?....So why have escrow?

I have read too many threads like this, I used the concierge service before with similar value name and the buyer kept changing their mind where to push the domain, for a week which delayed my payment, then another few days to get paid. Thankfully I used concierge or I might be in a similar mess.

 

[Internet.Domains]

Also, speaking to what happened here...IF the buyer were in fact dishonest (and clever), a seller who knew the escrow.com TOS and remained calm would have a leg up over a seller who got hysterical and stated categorically that he would not accept the return of the domain.

Let's say this happened:

1. Buyer makes payment.
2. Seller transfers (or pushes, makes no difference really) domain to Buyer.
3. Buyer refuses to acknowledge acceptance of the domain and states that he wants to cancel the escrow.

Buyer at this point is obligated by the TOS to return the domain to seller, in order to get his payment refunded. And according to the TOS he must do so within ten business days.

The hysterical Seller raises a fuss, says that he will not take this sh*t, and states on the record to escrow that he will not accept the domain back, that he won't be pushed around.

So...now that it's on the record that return of domain is impossible, that seller will not cooperate with return of domain, escrow has no choice but to freeze funds pending resolution of the stand off. Things could get really bad for the seller if he keeps refusing to accept the domain back; the buyer could sue to get his deposit back, and the domain could end up in a sort of escrow / trust, pending resolution, for who knows how long. Seller, by violating TOS, could end up liable for buyer's attorney fees, leaving him holding the bag with a judgment against him.

In meantime, a clever but dishonest Buyer has use of the domain, and his money is held up, but he knows he'll get the money back eventually and in the meantime has free use of the domain. He might even end up with a judgment against the stubborn seller that will get him his money back, and the domain (the dollar amount of the judgment might end up payable by a writ of execution against the domain).

A smarter, calmer seller whose goal was to get paid for the domain, would never state something as obstructive and violative of the TOS as that he will never accept the domain back. He would just pretend to go along with the process, and then after the ten days have passed, escrow would have to release funds to him, per its TOS. I'm not condoning this sort of seller behavior, but I am saying that calm minds that follow the law or at least appear to follow the law usually prevail.

When the law (the TOS) are on the buyer's side (allowing buyer to cancel), then the seller should be smarter about giving escrow an excuse to freeze funds, or for buyer to sue him for violating their contract.

Cooler heads usually prevail.

You bring up lots good points to not use Escrow.com. By using Epik, none of your scenarios would pertain.....

 

[Keith]

This isn’t a case of the buyer simply saying they didn’t want the domain. It went well beyond that.

- The accusations that I hacked the receiving godaddy account...

- Escrow putting it on me to recover the domain, after instructing me to transfer...

- Escrow not showing any interest in doing homework to track the domain...

- Months of negotiating only for the buyer to immediately back out after taking possession of the asset...

The first response from escrow should’ve been to say that they would launch a complete investigation. That didn’t happen.

Now, as far as TOS is concerned...I don’t care. Not one time did escrow state that I was bound by TOS to reverse the domain transfer, even after I threatened legal action. Hmm, I wonder why that was the case?!

The integrity of the service is the most important aspect from a customers perspective, not a TOS that nobody ever reads. In this case I did everything asked of me from the company. At that point it’s up to the company to make sure the buyer does the same.

 

[wwwweb]

This isn’t a case of the buyer simply saying they didn’t want the domain. It went well beyond that.

- The accusations that I hacked the receiving godaddy account...

- Escrow putting it on me to recover the domain, after instructing me to transfer...

- Escrow not showing any interest in doing homework to track the domain...

- Months of negotiating only for the buyer to immediately back out after taking possession of the asset...

The first response from escrow should’ve been to say that they would launch a complete investigation. That didn’t happen.

Now, as far as TOS is concerned...I don’t care. Not one time did escrow state that I was bound by TOS to reverse the domain transfer, even after I threatened legal action. Hmm, I wonder why that was the case?!

The integrity of the service is the most important aspect from a customers perspective, not a TOS that nobody ever reads. In this case I did everything asked of me from the company. At that point it’s up to the company to make sure the buyer does the same.

Maybe this person was stoned, and later came to their senses. I have had interesting negotiations in this space, and there are some characters in play for sure.

Escrow should have been able
to do a simple Whois pull to see something occurred.

If you read Domain King Rick’s tweet from a few weeks ago, he actually got an escrow employee fired, by the way they spoke to him in an email, the CEO of Freelancer caught the tweet.

Weekly employee meetings to go over scenarios that come up, and could be handled better. Letting some veteran employees write a FAQ of what to do?

In 2019 there should be protocol how to handle this situation. Maybe Step 1 is the two parties discuss, but step 2 would be to send a hold on transaction email, as it is under investigation to at least alert the two parties something is not right, so maybe their own talks can escalate. Who knows this company has been around forever, there should be steps in place to protect all parties. Clearly they want the domain, for the CBD play, on their Grasscity storefront, did they actually think they could have the domain, and funds also? That is the billion dollar question. Had they put the domain under privacy, and denied denied denied what simple step recourse could Keith have had outside starting his own legal action?

Concierge is a high margin product, and after this I am sure Keith will probably use it, and so will many others, but it kind of defeats the purpose of escrow, but what choice does one have, it’s not worth the frustration of above.

 

[Domains - Wanted]

...Concierge is a high margin product, and after this I am sure Keith will probably use it, and so will many others, but it kind of defeats the purpose of escrow, but what choice does one have, it’s not worth the frustration of above.

I suspect this might be the whole point of this sorry excercise: "motivating" people to use their concierge service. Risky business strategy, especially with Epik's very competitive offer, IMO... but what the heck do I know...

Seriously now: this thread has been a real eye opener for me. Seeing how Escrow.com muddles through this, it's beginning to look like a viable business opportunity... been thinking what to do with my DrEscrow.com...

 

[wwwweb]

I suspect this might be the whole point of this sorry excercise: "motivating" people to use their concierge service. Risky business strategy, especially with Epik's very competitive offer, IMO... but what the heck do I know

The one vulnerability has always been the seller after push. If buyer fails to close out transaction, the entire scenario falls on you to prove transfer was completed, then this starts the inspection period. Some reps will accept the push emails, others are hesistant, and actually want confirmation from buyer. Since buyer did not start inspection period, and it was forced, this caused another mandatory 1 day hold, whatever clause that is, and then finally after that closes, and all is good, in another day or so you get your closing transaction statement.

Let’s not confuse Escrow, and Epik. Epik is a register so basically they can transact, and confirm everything in house. Rob is super accessible, and can usually sort out any major issues without much follow up. Epik is a transaction service because they are able to transact domains given they own a register, and they are in the business of buying, and selling domain, among other things. Either way, if Epik buyer fails at any step, your name is always protected because it is within the Epik register. If Epik has chargeback issues they simply make the buyer hold the domain st Epik, which is still fully functional until this period lapses. One is more formal, and one is more practical, but they are two totally different models, and should not be confused, or pooled into the same business category.

 

[Keith]

Looks like the buyers operate a site called GrassCity.com

Google reddit grasscity and you’ll understand why I say this guy is shady.

This operation is terrible and not honest @xynames

So yes, this shitty company would clearly try to steal! I’m also certain that scammers don’t abide by TOS

 

[kam]

This isn’t a case of the buyer simply saying they didn’t want the domain. It went well beyond that.

- The accusations that I hacked the receiving godaddy account...

- Escrow putting it on me to recover the domain, after instructing me to transfer...

- Escrow not showing any interest in doing homework to track the domain...

- Months of negotiating only for the buyer to immediately back out after taking possession of the asset...

The first response from escrow should’ve been to say that they would launch a complete investigation. That didn’t happen.

Now, as far as TOS is concerned...I don’t care. Not one time did escrow state that I was bound by TOS to reverse the domain transfer, even after I threatened legal action. Hmm, I wonder why that was the case?!

The integrity of the service is the most important aspect from a customers perspective, not a TOS that nobody ever reads. In this case I did everything asked of me from the company. At that point it’s up to the company to make sure the buyer does the same.

I agreed with you. You did nothing wrong at all.

Your rights is backed by common law. It make no sense for the buyer to cancel the deal after he got the domain.

In the meantime, the buyer has the rights to cancel the deal after he got the domain, as long as he returned it within 10 days and this unreasonable rights is backed by escrow.com.

In this case, you may want to sue the buyer for breaching the contract or you may want to sue escrow.com for negligent in their duty of care and caused you a financial loss.

But trust me you will not want to sue anyone, the legal expense is way too much.
So, the best way to protect yourself is to read the TOS carefully and avoid to use the standard service.