discuss Do you ever feel bad about being a domain squatter?

[bluebox]

So I've been searching for a domain for myself (not for resell) a nice 3-letter acronym that is also be a surname.

I found around 50-ish names regged:
32 new TLDs - most aren't even resolving.
Main TLDs - .com is redirecting the rest is parked or "for sale"
ccTLDs - 10+ registered

Guess how many websites are there....
4 (cctlds)
Almost 50 domains registered and most of them is just sitting there, unused...

No wonder the rest of the world hates us.

Don't get me wrong - I know I am a hypocrite. Just the other day I used a few GD coupons to catch some domains for resale.
Still - I'm guessing 99% of 2-3 letter names and probably 90%+ of other domains is just parked/for sale.
I hate seeing names I like wasted like that...

 

[alien51]

Of course those people are even more frustrated when they see their dream domain is taken but not "in use". The flawed argument that a registered domain must be "in use" is silly to me.

Actually, what picks their nerves is not just the simple case of "not in use", but the act of SCALPING. Nobody likes scalpers.

And also, about the "not in use" argument being silly, you should read UDRP cases. Panelists do consider the "not in use" act as one of the mitigating proofs of squatting. When a registrant is just sitting on a domain and not using it, it gives an immediate negative impression in the domain arbitration examination.

So to all those people who hate on us: Please remember that the domain you wanted once was available for reg fee. Some domainer or end-user was just faster than you to register it.

Which is probably why it is a good thing that a brand name cannot be trademarked, unless the applicant has demonstrated an actual use in commerce for it.

 

[alien51]

That's an interesting and noteworthy point. Because many of us have developed websites and are end users too. Some domainers are pure domainers, they buy and sell domains but develop nothing. Not all of them though. Anyway, when you have a track record a developed websites, or when your domain whois points to a company that is involved in web projects, the squatter label usually goes away. Because potential buyers have no idea domaining is your primary source of income. Your 'front' company just looks like any normal company.

I can't remember the last time I was called a squatter by an interested party, if ever.

Exactly, exactly.

I have been accused several times of people emailing me for "stealing" the domains from the dropped pool and then asking me how much ransom money i want in exchange, because they "love" the domain name i just bought for 99 cents at Godaddy. Maybe she overslept when the domain dropped, and when she woke up i already regged it. Most of the people complaining are legit end-users who are really planning to use the domains for a blog or business.

Well, anyway, in my observation, people are less angry when you "pretend" that you are going to lose a valuable project idea for the domain and asking compensation for your "lost ability to develop the domain", instead of merely acting like a true-blue ticket scalper in your conversation.

People are happy to pay you for your misery about your "lost dreams" or "anguish about losing your chance for development". They are not happy about the thought that you are asking a Somali price tag on the domain, simply because you are hoarding the domains like hostages looking for money off someone's legit needs.

 

[Bram C.]

And also, about the "not in use" argument being silly, you should read UDRP cases. Panelists do consider the "not in use" act as one of the mitigating proofs of squatting.

A domain "not in use" can go either way in an UDRP case. In the end the panel must examine all the circumstances of the case to determine whether the respondent is acting in bad faith. If "the domain is not in use" is all the "proof" a complainant has then chances are very high that the trademark holder his complaint will be denied.

 

[alien51]

A domain "not in use" can go either way in an UDRP case. In the end the panel must examine all the circumstances of the case to determine whether the respondent is acting in bad faith. If "the domain is not in use" is all the "proof" a complainant has then chances are very high that the trademark holder his complaint will be denied.

Didn't i say "one of the mitigating proofs" ???

If "not in use" is never an issue, then they should never have included it in the UDRP checklist in the first place.

 

[Bram C.]

If "not in use" is never an issue, then they should never have included it in the UDRP checklist in the first place.

I said "A domain "not in use" can go either way in an UDRP case". I didn't say it's never an issue.

 

[alien51]

It can go either way, but the fact that they tried to take "not in use" into consideration, means it's a negative impression by default assumption. Because if "not in use" is a positive impression, they would never have brought that up anywhere in the discussion as being irrelevant.

 

[discobull]

It can go either way, but the fact that they tried to take "not in use" into consideration, means it's a negative impression by default assumption. Because if "not in use" is a positive impression, they would never have brought that up anywhere in the discussion as being irrelevant.

They consider all kinds of things including, for example, registration date. Would it make sense to conclude that since a newer registration works against a defendant in a udrp claim, that it therefore means that all domains being hand-regged give "a negative impression by default assumption"?

 

[alien51]

They consider all kinds of things including, for example, registration date. Would it make sense to conclude that since a newer registration works against a defendant in a udrp claim, that it therefore means that all domains being hand-regged give "a negative impression by default assumption"?

You have to ask the UDRP panelists about their opinion on why they look into the "not in use" factor as an "added element" of squatting motive.

 

[discobull]

You have to ask the UDRP panelists about their opinion on why they look into the "not in use" factor as an "added element" of squatting motive.

I don't have to ask them because the reasoning behind it is fairly obvious. What isn't very obvious, is why anyone would think that these considerations have a similar significance outside of the context of a udrp dispute. It's sort of like arguing that since some murderers have been convicted because their fingerprints were found on knives, that it therefore means that anyone leaving their fingerprints on any knife will by default be viewed with suspicion.

 

[alien51]

I can't judge what is obvious to you. You have your own mind. If you are just trying every inch to refute everything i say word for word just because your mind cannot accept it, then you are free to believe what you want to believe.

 

[SpareDomains]

Banks have no risk, I do. Yes, I might have an 800% return on one domain, but that isn't the full picture, is it? That's because, for every domain I buy that returns a profit I also have a bunch that I lose money on. It's a fundamental fact of life that increased risk yields increased rewards. Do you honestly believe that I'd be able to turn a profit or even break even if I was reselling domains with a 3% markup?

Good point as 1000 .com domains x $8.47= $8470.00 a year in renewals so based on how many sales you are able to produce per year you know you're starting from $8470.00 in the hole per 1k .coms minus any parking revenue generated which is why I generally sell my domains in the x,xxx-xx,xxx range.

Another factor that often get's overlooked is replacement cost. If you buy a domain and hold it for 10 years and then resell it it's not as cheap to replace a gem these days then it was a decade ago due to increased competition. So if you sell too cheap then over time the quality of your portfolio will continue to decrease as you won't be able to maintain it with small profit margins.

Still, the fact remains that Domainers do not add any value on the domain to justify the asking price that is way above what a UDRP panelist would always refer to as "out of pocket expenses" in keeping the domain in his portfolio. Mostly, a domainer wants to be compensated for all the trouble he endured (a trouble of his own making), with an asking price that is purely arbitrary (which actually makes domaining a conducive vehicle for money laundering).

Also a misnomer = just because you are engaged in crime or exploitation, it doesn't mean you cannot use the word "investing" for such activities. "Investing" is not purely a word reserved for the good guys with noble causes. An investment, is an expenditure of resources with an expectation of profitable returns. Never in the definition did it say that parasites cannot use the word "investment", and should only be used by good people.

I can cook at home or go out for a nice dinner.
I can do my laundry at home or drop it all off at the dry cleaners.
I can wash my car at home or run through the hand car wash.
I can cut my lawn or hire a landscaper.

Welcome to the service industry, a domainer doesn't have to add any value to a domain as you're selling a solid foundation to the house and not the actual house, the price mark up can be attributed to time spent finding the domain, purchase costs, renewal costs, replacement costs and time saved that a business doesn't have to scour through millions of drops/aftermarket listings to find what they need as time saved=money. End user doesn't have to have an aftermarket domain it's their choice if the price tags on their top choices makes sense/can be turned profitable from their marketing budget. If a yes then a sale happens. If a no then negotiations or a pass happens.

 

[discobull]

If you are just trying every inch to refute everything i say word for word just because your mind cannot accept it, then you are free to believe what you want to believe.

Don't take it personally. I don't accept illogical arguments from anyone else either.

 

[alien51]

If you don't accept illogical arguments, then why bother engaging in one you don't accept ? Are you desperate in trying to convince me to accept your view? I'm not trying to win you over on any of my views.

 

[alien51]

a domainer doesn't have to add any value to a domain

Exactly. That's why a Domainer is different from an End-User.

the price mark up can be attributed to time spent finding the domain, purchase costs, renewal costs, replacement costs

Something you did not have to incur, if you were not speculating on it in the first place. The merchandise was readily available, if you didn't pick it up. Now you want someone to pay you extra just because you picked it up on your own free will.

By the way, finding the domain is very easy. All i need to do is just look up the domain at DomainTools.

"Finding" and "Choosing", are two different things.

and time saved that a business doesn't have to scour through millions of drops/aftermarket listings to find what they need as time saved=money.

Basically, this specific activity is related to choosing an effective "brand" for a business to use.

Choosing an effective brand requires certain brainstorming collaboration with the marketing people of a business. You need to understand what the business is all about, how the brand name translates to the company's vision or customer appeal, how the brand is to be positioned as a vehicle for corporate identity..... these are matters that extend beyond just searching for "drops/aftermarket listings" (pure domaining).

In my experience, so many Domainers have tried to approach me just showing me their portfolio saying this one or that one looks nice for you. Most domainers have no time trying to figure out what your business wants to accomplish with the use of the domain. They just want you to pick from his portfolio listing, pay him up, and get it over with.

And besides, how would a domainer know what is good for my business. That part i have to figure out for myself because i'm the one who is going to use the identity. A domainer doesn't know my business, how can he pick a brand name for me? Unless of course the end-user is not that picky and complicated with choosing an identity.

Some end-users take suggestions from Domainers on what domain to use as their brand.

In my specific case, i choose the brand to use, then look for the listings if such brand name is available for registration. Like i have said before, i did bought from Andrew's list a couple of times already, because the brand name i want i don't have in my portfolio and Andrew has it in his list.

 

[discobull]

If you don't accept illogical arguments, then why bother engaging in one you don't accept ? Are you desperate in trying to convince me to accept your view?

No. It's abundantly evident that you will continue to cling to your perspective no matter how many flaws in your reasoning are exposed. My only objective is to make sure that an effective rebuttal is on the record in the hope that other people won't be tempted to accept your points as irrefutable facts. It's tough enough having to contend with lay people embracing these simplistic, poorly thought out analyses ( thankfully, it seems to be the exception rather than the rule ) without also having "one of our own" putting his stamp of approval on this perspective.

 

[alien51]

No. It's abundantly evident that you will continue to cling to your perspective no matter how many flaws in your reasoning are exposed. My only objective is to make sure that an effective rebuttal is on the record in the hope that other people won't be tempted to accept your points as irrefutable facts. It's tough enough having to contend with lay people embracing these simplistic, poorly thought out analyses ( thankfully, it seems to be the exception rather than the rule ) without also having "one of our own" putting his stamp of approval on this perspective.

Your goal is not a problem. Just keep expressing your own views, as your own. Everybody can see that and read it and absorb it and decide for themselves.

But again, you keep clinging yourself to my views up to the most trivial word for word semantics. Can't your views stand on its own without clinging yourself to me ?

 

[discobull]

But again, you keep clinging yourself to my views up to the most trivial word for word semantics. Can't your views stand on its own without clinging yourself to me ?

I'm not even sure what that means. I'm not singling you out per se. But, since besides the OP, you seem to be the only making that side of the argument, and since I disagree with your points of view, I'm obviously only going to offer a rebuttal when either of you post. Should I be debating people that agree with me?

 

[alien51]

Well then in that case, you are just trolling me trying to follow me around. Atleast you made your intentions clear now.

 

[discobull]

Well then in that case, you are just trolling me trying to follow me around. Atleast you made your intentions clear now.

You're welcome to put whatever spin on it you like. If it doesn't embarrass you to advertise your poor reading comprehension, there's no reason for me to be bothered by it either.

In any case, you can anticipate that if you or anyone else posts something that I disagree with, I'm not going to have a problem voicing my disagreement if I'm so inclined. If you can't stand the heat, etc....

 

[alien51]

Good. Good. Atleast i can pinpoint the trolls i don't need to respond to. lol

 

[discobull]

Good. Good. Atleast i can pinpoint the trolls i don't need to respond to. lol

The fact that you keep responding suggests that you might be giving yourself more credit than you deserve.

Anyhow, nicely done. I bet nobody can tell that you've changed the subject to avoid conceding that your udrp argument was nonsensical.

 

[~~]

The problem is that domainers don't abide by market forces. A buyer may be asked to not only beat all other bidders (which would ordinarily be sufficient), but to do so by a wide margin.

Domain sellers have a very rare ability to get away with this sort of thing. If buyer has already named his company, or settled on the name he likes best after many hours of deliberations, the value to him of the name may be far above market value.
If he were trying to buy a car or a property he probably would find a satisfactory alternative if asked to pay a multiple of market value, but there is only one matching .com, giving sellers an exceedingly strong hand.

 

[DU]

So the consensus is - "as long as it makes me $$$ who cares about other people" ?

Pretty decent summary. It's not quite as hateful across the board but I've found people with less empathy in domaining than I have in banking- and those people are hated.

Morality has no place in the free world. You need laws to control what is morally wrong. As long as there are no laws, then humans will do practically anything they want for self-interests.

Pretty decent summary. The ends justifies the means for most.

The "community" gets judged by their members and for the most part the bad eggs are more visible than those that aren't.

On this forum I can find TM domains, click cheats, shill bidders, tax avoiders, people that you would call end users and the whole spectra in-between. I can find posts that advocate chasing domains of people that die to see if it can be picked up on the cheap (not illegal). I can see praise given on domains that are TMs. I can see people making statements to the effect that "the domain is worth XXX but they really want it so squeeze them for XX,XXX".

There is no domain exchange, no domain regulation, and so pricing is all over the place and people take advantage of people that are less knowledgeable as much as possible. In no other business do people use as many fake aliases as they do in domaining.

Very few people are as pure as they want you to believe. I'm not painting everyone with the same brush but if you think of a domainer as a brick... when you put a lot of them together you get a wall.... and when you have a wall the brush doesn't care what brick you are.

 

[ecalc]

Squatting ain't bad but the paper is killin' me!

 

[Bennett G.]

I do!

I have to visit shrink every other day. Thats how bad it is at times.