What side of illegal immigration are you on?

[movingconcierge]

Caution
Does this video make you mad because of what happens to the US post office or does it make you mad because the people videotaping get so mad at the protesters?

Strong language caution.

Tough issue, but should be obvious from this video that it's coming to a head pronto. I've been eating coffee and watching these for about 30 hours now. I'm depressed and disappointed and hopping f'ing mad.

If you're not from the US, how would you feel if this were happening in your country?

 

[movingconcierge]

It's the symbolism of replacing the American flag with a foreign flag on American soil. It is the ultimate sign of disrespect. I don't think it is an American thing. I would think that any countryman would be upset at that.

 

[peaches017]

Not so much over American soil, but over a federal building, the United States postal office. To come to a country and disrespect it is ridiculous.

Opinionated on this too, will make a better post later.

 

[labrocca]

OMG. I am very much for the amnesty proposed by the President. I think it's the only way to "move on" (pun to moveon.org intended). I am Republican though (same as our President) and I let me tell you something.

The raising of the Mexican flag on a federal building...TICKS ME OFF. It's more than a matter of disrespect...in times of war the victor is able to place their flag on the losers pole. For them to raise that flag in replacement of ours imho is an act of war. Don't get me wrong..I know Mexico ain't declaring war...but the far-left is. Someone should be arrested, tried, and convicted for that act. YOU DO NOT BRING DOWN AN AMERICAN FLAG AND REPLACE IT WITH A MEXICAN FLAG ON A GOVERNMENT BUILDING. It's just that simple.

This act only pushes people away from their cause.

You can bet your ass that if I was in any other country and I took their flag down and put up a US flag I would at least be arrested but most likely mobbed and killed. IMHO..that would be a good response here. I would have been spurned to violence if I was there...

 

[labrocca]

Any rational, sensible person would assume, based on these facts, that amnesty not only does not solve the problem, nay, it seems to exacerbate the problem. Wouldn't you agree?

Nope..don't agree. And your solution to the "problem" is?

Also I have yet to see anyone against the Amnesty point out hard facts that it's bad for the economy. As a matter of fact most say it's good that we have illegal immigrants and they are fueling our current population growth which in turn is keeping us ahead of the EU which is slowly dying. EU has such a problem with the population growth rate they have to encourage people to have babies. The USA has a 2.09 population increase rate for every female which most analyst say is near perfect. The USA needs the immigrants to sustain Social Security in 30-50 years (we can argue about that in another thread please).

Most arguments against Illegal Immigration is CULTURAL...such as language and food in schools.

If you can present facts as to how the immigrants are effecting us negatively...I will listen. I decided my position based on the facts I could dig up not on any notions I had.

As for 50 years from now the country being mostly Mexican...oh so doubtful. Each generation of kids born here become AMERICAN..you don't see them running back to Mexico and while they are proud of their heritage..so are Italians, Polish, Irish, and many other cultures that are INTEGRATED into our society. Key word is integration.

I think a noble law would be to place ENGLISH as the official language. It may help to push immigrants toward language integration. Printing every utility bill and store label in English/Spanish doesn't help that. Laws should be passed to integrate these people not to push them away and seperate them which will cause a hardened position and bring out terrible elements like the one in this video.

 

[DN Tycoon]

FYI- I live in Vegas..I am around PLENTY if Mexicans...I don't ask them for paperwork since it's not my business but I would guess that plenty of them are illegal. As I stated before...I never been bothered by them. My sons school I realize can be effected negatively by a large non-english speaking class but we all have crosses to bear.



It's really not as easy as you make it sound. Many of the illegals pay a years wage or more to get out of Mexico. Do you really think they would do that if they can just fill out a form and wait?

Also..let's think about crime and being an illegal immigrant. Wouldn't you think a fair amount of immigrants want to remain incognito since ANY police action...even a traffic pullover could get them deported.

Complaining about bad drivers, crime, drugs, and the rest has very little to do with illegal immigrants. People are annoying...all of them.

As a police officer I really think you are too focused on their legal status. It's just not as cut and dry as that otherwise the problem would be solved by now. There are economic factors involved here. From factories to restaurants to Walmart....many Americans benefit from the cheap labor. I can't imagine what my landscaping would have cost if not for the Mexicans that did the job. I never seen harder working people that simply don't complain because A) they need the money and B) Mexico must really suck and being here is very important to them.

I personally wish for amnesty and that every person in America be given a fair and equal chance. Immigration law itself imho isn't fair. This is a free and open society...we should let anyone come that wants to provided they knock first and sign the guestbook. The problem isn't the legal status of immigrants...the problem is politicians that can't work them into our society.

There you go blaming everyone else but the illegals....I gues you are right we should have open borders and let people come and go as they please....I do not see how you figure cheap labor helps our community seeing how it lowers wages and as we all know the cost of living goes up not down.....so an illegal takes a job for $4.00hr that is normally $12.00hr and now the American citizen either has to work for $4.00hr or struggle...it's nice to know everything is going in the way of those who break the law..while legal citizen suffer....I never said the act of becomming a citizen was easy but if thousands of immigrants can do it then why can't the others..simple because they don't care they only want the now....

B33R I am not even going to respond to your post as it is wat off base.

 

[movingconcierge]

How about the Holocaust? If everyone was like you and followed the law to the letter, how many more Jews would have been killed? If no one helped the Jews escape, how many more would be gassed or shot? After all the people who shopped the Jews, the people who killed the Jews, they were only following the law weren't they?

Nice hitler comment, B33R. I couldn't have predicted such a low brow response at sometime during this debate. It was actually pretty civil up until you posed your crass and ignorant comparison. I could whip out some of the slurs I heard from your fellow countrymen directed at some of the Middle-Easterners that have migrated LEGALLY to your country. But let's just leave that sour taste to fade.

I'm not sure your welcome back to this thread.

 

[movingconcierge]

I am personally curious to see how many friends you know that are working for 4.00 an hour. How many 'legal citizens' are suffering in your neighboorhood. According to the major economical reports, not many....because employment's up, spending is up....so much so the fed's continually raising interest rates to curb inflation.

If one legal American citizen is displaced by the acts of his illegal immigrant equal it is too many. I'd like to hear how you disagree with this.

If you look at a crowd of immigrants, can you tell which is legal and which is illegal? Are we going to have to 'stamp' some sort of emblem on the forhead of every immigrant that comes into the country?

You could / should start with the 80/20 rule; i.e. you could ID 80% of ILLEGAL aliens by taking a 20% action. That action would be station INS / ICE agents at major hardware and building material suppliers.

To find the remaining 20% would remain a challenge but the immediate relief and disruption of this major thumbing of the nose at the LAW would be a huge help.

Don't tell me that I don't have a clue about the immigration issue. I live in Arizona, where political entities are using this topic to win elections.

It is exactly BECAUSE this issue is used in political debates that we should pay attention to it. Do you think that politicians run on platforms that only 2 people in their constituency find important? If so, you don't have a firm grasp of what it takes to run a political campaign. You must have a LARGE platform; i.e. that 80/20 rule again.

Everyday, i see the positive results hispanic immigrants have on our community. I see them performing hard labor intensive work early in the morning and late in the evening. I don't know about you, but looking at them, i can't tell which one is the legal, and which one is the illegal.

Again the same, repetitive, muddy response. It is ILLEGAL immigrants from Mexico. Of course they work hard. Their government has forced them to live hard lives. They've taken a hard journey. They will make many dollars more per hour ILLEGALLY and under the table than they ever have. I'd work hard too.

I can tell the "ones" that probably are illegal by seeing where they congregate and how they secure work. I see the "new ones" scatter when a police cruiser drives by. The veterans know that the police don't do squat.

I don't deny that some of them are good-hearted, hard-working people.

It's that arrogant ILLEGAL, circumventing the system,

that demanding the same rights that Americans fought and died for,

that waiving the Mexican flag instead of the American flag,

that ignorant position that California, and several other states are in the process of being reclaimed by some Mexican organizations,

that hypocrisy of the Mexican government whose immigration laws are 10x more strict than the US',

that arrogant and unearned opinion that US citizens should just accept these border jumpers because they have had it hard...WELL WHAT ABOUT OUR LEGAL POOR?

Our communities are not going down, they are improving. Yes, there are some bad apples that might cross over, but i see that as the exception, not the rule....just like bad american citzens.

I think this is a delusional statement.

Our communities do go down when there are ten ILLEGAL aliens living in a one or two bedroom apartment.

Our communities do go down when dozens of ILLEGAL aliens congregate on our corners, leaving their trash and urinating and defecating in public.

Our communities do go down when ILLEGAL aliens get sick or hurt and visit hospitals and clinics set up for legal American citizens.

Our communities do go down when ILLEGAL aliens take a job away from a legal American citizen for less than the usual wage.

Our communities are going down. It may be that you are not immersed in it or are immune to it for one reason or another. Personally, I am immersed and not immune and I see things completely different from you.

The beauty of this country, is that you can become rich and wealthy without getting a 'job' either. [...]

I don't know what this paragraph has to do with it.

If i listen to the news broadcasts, or political entities....i'd think that there's a big disastrous problem. But, I ignore the spin, and look and think for myself. From where i stand, this country was built on the backs of legal and illegal immigrants, and the heart of this 'illegal' debate is nothing more than an attempt to divide us and to put hatred on our hearts by people that just want to win an election.

And here in lies the majority of the problem. My opinion is that because there is so much conflict and emotion in this argument some people shut down or begin to think irrationally, on both sides. The problem is real. It is just a shame that emotion is overrunning logic. Law is analytical and not emotional. That is how it should be. Compassion in the law is rare and is the exception and not the rule. To overrule such a major legal policy with emotional arguments would be a huge mistake in my opinion.

Good debate...anyone else have a civil opinion or response?

 

[wormfood]

 

[BPmedia David]

Both... I think illegel immigration should be stopped... but I also think we need to calm down about it.
Getting our underwear in a twist wont make them stop comming over. I think if we just made legal immigration more appealing, they would go that way, and we would get the tax money and all that good stuff.

 

[movingconcierge]

I'd like to see things resolve too, but don't you think that it is the mindset of the foreign goverments that needs adjusting and not the existing law/s?

 

[_FLIP_]

I don't know why the americans are so mad. Their going crazy over the mexican flag being on the pole.

 

[B33R]

***This is my opinion, not trying to be offensive to anyone, just tellin' it... ***

It's the symbolism of replacing the American flag with a foreign flag on American soil. It is the ultimate sign of disrespect. I don't think it is an American thing. I would think that any countryman would be upset at that.

I wouldn't... it's only a flag. Americans have a thing about the flag don't they?

I don't really understand it, maybe it's the fact that we don't fly flags above post offices and (probably) a majority of other government buildings. I guess we just don't need to, we have thousands of years of culture and we're comfortable that everything belongs to us. We've been fighting for it all for thousands of years.

I can understand you getting upset about some foreigner "claiming ownership" of one of your buildings but to start a riot about it is just pointless, y'know?

As for the immigration issue, there's always been immigration to some degree and there always will be. As long as there's different countries with different economies/jobs/opportunities people will want what's best. Politicians can't control it, most of them don't even try. I'm not even sure it is controllable, short of the world being a single state with one government and open borders (how likely is it that that will ever happen??)

Take the EU, a bunch of nations, all pretty equally powerful (well the major countries anyway), still there's differences across each country. Poeple come from non EU countries in Western Europe or other continents, they travel all the way across Europe just to get where the grass is greener, be that the UK or wherever (in recent years it's been the UK).
It's the same now there's new countries in the EU, millions of people travelled across Europe to get to the UK to find jobs and somewhere decent to live.

IMO, the grass will always be greener on the other side, people will always want what someone else's got, and most people just want a job and somewhere to live. You can't begrudge them for that.

I honestly don't believe there's a solution. People just want what's best for them, if they can't get it in their country they will travel to find it. Short of building a huge wall all the way around your country, stopping sea and air travel and patrolling your borders 24/7, there's no way to stop it, the grass will always be greener, people will always want something better (or just something) and immigration will always exist (beit legal or illegal).

Obviously there is a negative side, loss of jobs for nationals, increased house prices, etc. etc. but if you can't stop it then there's nothing really you can do. Think of it from the side of people who just want a job, somewhere good to live and to support their families.

There's really more to life than starting riots over flags and immigrants IMHO anyway. Ask yourself the question, if Mexico had what the US has and the US has what Mexico has, would you go down to Mexico just to get a job, to feed & support your family and find a decent place to live?

If you say "no, you'd rather struggle on trying to support your family with nothing, no job, no food and a crappy house (if any)", then you're either in denial or you just haven't understood the question.

Everyone wants what's best for them and their family, if it comes down to illegal immigration then so be it, they only want to support themselves and their family. Is that so wrong?




For the record, I have no experience of the whole immigration thing. I'm not an immigrant nor has anyone in my family within the last few hundred years. This entire post was written by someone from the greener side, I guess I just have more compassion than most people.

 

[.X.]

I think illegal immigration should be stopped....but we are a tad bit late perhaps..it should have been stopped in 1970's....Violent protesting isn't going to help the cause in the least bit imo though....I guess if a counrty sticks thier flag in our soil or otherwise and tries to make a claim....they are asking for an american a** whoopin.

 

[G_C]

To be honest, I kind of feel for those poor Mexicans.

I am an immigrant myself. I have Third World citizenship and live in a First World country that is anything but hospitable to foreigners. I think the raising of the Mexican flag was more of a symbolic thing aimed at pointing out to Americans the role that the Mexicans play in their economy and an implicit request to acknowledge their contribution and respect it.

That might be a little bit of a drastic way of doing things - but at the same time, immigrants throughout the world are subject to a number of forms of discrimination and racism. In some countries, discrimination is overt; in others - such as Switzerland - it is discrete, but no less effective. In Geneva, no will attempt anything like segregation simply because you are not Swiss; but there are always eyebrows raised when people see my Belarussian passport.

 

[Ixix]

Caution
Does this video make you mad because of what happens to the US post office or does it make you mad because the people videotaping get so mad at the protesters?

Strong language caution.

Tough issue, but should be obvious from this video that it's coming to a head pronto. I've been eating coffee and watching these for about 30 hours now. I'm depressed and disappointed and hopping f'ing mad.

If you're not from the US, how would you feel if this were happening in your country?

Is it almost election time already? You know, I shouldav seen it comming, the politcal ads on the radio, the litter of picket signs on the roads, The riddiculous political ads that go something like "Dick Johnson a washington insider that wants to f* you over. He wants terrorists to get you, he wants to take your grandma's social security check, he even voted IN FAVOR of burning American Flags during gay marriage cerimonies.....But not Dick Jackson, he cares and loves you and is fighting to make sure you get that .5 tax break. Vote for our washington insider, He will make the boggyman go away, make you feel safer, and make you feel richer. This ad was paid for by Dick Jackson's Lobbists....er the good people at the Americans Doing a Darn Good Job Committe (ADDGJ). Just don't think for yourself and research the issue...Just take our word for it'

I'm getting off track....The immigration issue?

Just something for the 24 hour news networks to distract you from the real issue of the day, to keep people skeptical and fearful of one another, and to keep americans from thinking for themselves. Ratings might have something to do with it to.

but that's JMO.

and for all it's worth, I believe that this country was built on the backs of immigrants, legal and illegal.

hopefully i didn't offend anyone, or anybody's political stance. i'm a bit of a cynic in regards to the current political issues. I'm happy with what i've got, and am not worried that an imigrant will limit my opportunites or take my money..... our government's doing a fine dandy job of that already anyway.

JMO

 

[movingconcierge]

Thanks for your opinions. I think perhaps that it might be an elusive subject to discuss because no one really mentioned ILLEGAL immigration in any great detail. I think that is where the disconnect lies.

I don't think anyone denies the importance of LEGAL immigrants. It is the people who cut in line and take what is legally not theirs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that in order to legally enter the US, you have to have a background check, NOT be a felon, have something like $5,000 in the bank, and an employment sponsor. In other words, you need to bring something to the table.

I actually think the US is one of the most LENIENT of the immigrant states. You can own property. You can vote. I know in Switzerland (my most favorite country on the planet BTW - been there like 10 times - mmm Switzerland) you cannot ever own property if you were not born there. I know the same is true in Mexico. Mexico has some other strict rules I've heard too. Does antone know more details about that?

 

[G_C]

The Swiss case is a classic Catch-22 situation - you can't get a job without a valid work permit, but you can't get a valid work permit without a job.

I sometimes think there's no such a thing as an illegal immigrant. If a person can do a job well and is not a felon (ok, I agree on the felony part, we definitel don't want those people in the country, but that's only because they're a threat to the safety of the population), why not let them do it, and work permits be damned? In my case, why should a Belarussian have less right to work in Switzerland than a Swiss? If we are a free market economy, then certainly your birth right (and that's effectively what nationality is) should not determine your career prospects - rather, the main determinant should be the set of skills that you bring to the table. Belarussian, Swiss, Guinean, Kazakhstani - who cares so long as you can do the job?

The problem with finding employment sponsors is that, in Switzerland at least, unless you're Swiss or EU, no company would bother recruiting you for a full-time job because the amount of red tape they'd have to cut through in order for the immigration authorities to issue you with a work permit is plain ridiculous. Sure, they have the resources to do it - but they choose not to spend those resources on prospective employees, no matter how good those employees look. So non-Swiss/EU nationals never really get a chance to demonstrate their skills to the company, since they are never so much as invited to an interview.

 

[B33R]

I was talking about any form of immigration. They're both almost exactly the same except to be legal you need a lot of money.

Money to pay for the applications and forms, money to support yourself, money to have already entered your target country and found a decent area to move to and some form of employment (no easy task).
You also need a hell of a lot of time too, getting the visas and getting accepted is no quick task, it often takes a number of years.

Your "people who cut in line and take what is legally not theirs" comment is pretty arrogant. It's not about cutting a line, it's about living, survival and getting a good life for you and your family. I'm sure most of us would do the same thing if we didn't have a good life.

There is a reason they're doing something illegal, they're not doing it to steal from you. Most of them will get illegal employment anyway, they just want to provide for themselves and their families.
If you're really serious about not allowing immigrants in then you should clamp down on the number employers offering them illegal jobs.

Isis is correct about the election part. Do you really think you'd be having an illegal immigrant argument if it wasn't election time?
Your government is seriously trying to screw with your minds. They'll do anything to show the "terrorists" are still entering your country, to try and put you off balance and convince you into believing that if you don't elect them 9/11 is gonna happen all over again.

The truth is, most of the people entering are good people who just want a good life, simple as that. Most of them will find illegal work, getting paid much less than minimum wage, just to make ends meet.
I'm sure if there wasn't a need for them and there were no jobs for them, they wouldn't come. As it is, there's plenty of illegal employment in various industries like construction, farming and cleaning.

Putting up a giant wall won't solve anything either, you should be working at eliminating the reason they're coming, not trying to stop them.

Thanks for your opinions. I think perhaps that it might be an elusive subject to discuss because no one really mentioned ILLEGAL immigration in any great detail. I think that is where the disconnect lies.

I don't think anyone denies the importance of LEGAL immigrants. It is the people who cut in line and take what is legally not theirs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that in order to legally enter the US, you have to have a background check, NOT be a felon, have something like $5,000 in the bank, and an employment sponsor. In other words, you need to bring something to the table.

 

[movingconcierge]

Before I go on any further, it is important to note a few things about my political stance and my paradigm: I hate GW...hate hate hate...I'm an independent thinker / voter who leans to the left. I've voted both republican and democrat in the past. My family was heavily involved in the civil rights movement. I have a personal understanding what it is / was to be poor. OK, now back to the debate.

B33R, I appreciate your debate. I have to take exception with a few things:

Your "people who cut in line and take what is legally not theirs" comment is pretty arrogant. It's not about cutting a line, it's about living, survival and getting a good life for you and your family. I'm sure most of us would do the same thing if we didn't have a good life.

It's not arrogant at all. Why do you think it takes so long to process legal applications? Because all the funding for immigration goes to stop people from circumventing the system. If someone is so heavily committed to a good life, why not stress THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT. Why does the US become the landing page ( :hehe for everyone looking for something better in their lives? Why can't they find it in their own homeland? I would love to live in Locarno, but I'm not going to ship myself their in a crate and live a lie to do it.

Second...

Isis is correct about the election part. Do you really think you'd be having an illegal immigrant argument if it wasn't election time?

This is the second most used rebuttal to the argument that I find. The most used rebuttal is that people who are against ILLEGAL immigration are racist bigots. I'm against it and I assure you I'm no bigot.

It is a very sensitive issue because no one party wants to be the one to shut the door. There are too many latino votes. But you know what, the latino voter has an agenda of their own. They literally claim ownership of the land. They reject a land deal of 150 years ago - long since done, obviously - and say that California, Arizona, Texas, and some other land belong to Mexico. I just don't know why they don't focus on fixing their own Government and country to make it better. It baffles me. Are there any Mexicans here who can add to this debate? It's friendly !

 

[viciouscircle]

I sometimes think there's no such a thing as an illegal immigrant. If a person can do a job well and is not a felon (ok, I agree on the felony part, we definitel don't want those people in the country, but that's only because they're a threat to the safety of the population), why not let them do it, and work permits be damned?

Then the felons and people who can't do a job well who decide to sneak across the border are the illegal immigrants. Immigration itself is not the enemy here, undocumented/illegal immigration is. Not to say that there aren't issues with the immigration process in the U.S., but that doesn't mean Illegal immigration is, or should be treated as not being a problem. I have no issue with people coming into the U.S. IF, they can prove that they're coming to be productive members of society. Verify that immigrants are not a threat to safety and put measures in place to prevent immigrants from accessing government services without contributing, and then let them come and go as they please. Let the current illegal immigrants apply for legal immigrant satus under the same requirements: no risk if you're making a positive contribution to society. After that, anyone caught here illegally faces the consequences.
Atleast that is the only logical and feasible answer, IMO.

 

[dgridley]

The answer is obvious.. illegal is illegal.. period. Measures should be taken to make sure the flow of ILLEGAL immigration is stopped, period. I'm all for LEGAL immigration, provided there's no circumvention of the process.

 

[Humdizzy]

We are a nation of immigrants. The original immigrants to this country didn't have to wait for an approval or denial of whether or not they can live on this land. When the colonists won over the land of the french and england didn't want them going on the land they won, they went anyway. :P IMO

 

[dgridley]

Obviously you can't do away with immigration controls now, can you?

We are a nation of immigrants. The original immigrants to this country didn't have to wait for an approval or denial of whether or not they can live on this land. When the colonists won over the land of the french and england didn't want them going on the land they won, they went anyway. :P IMO

 

[Humdizzy]

Obviously you can't do away with immigration controls now, can you?

We could have something similar to the EU. NAFTA just benefits our economy and that's pretty much it.